The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

Ep 36: You Only Have to Be 1% Better feat Vyara Ndejuru

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You Only Have to Be 1% Better feat Vyara Ndejuru 

Hello and welcome to the revenuecollective podcast. My name is Casey, like Gordon and I'm your host. Today Isit down with Brno Djourou to talk about her journey into a marketingleader. Before we get started, I want to give a shout out to our revenuecollective sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Quota Path Commissiontracking software built by salespeople for sales people. If you wake up in acold sweat, dreading the commission's process quota path is for you. Quote. Apath provides commission transparency for everyone involved while motivatingreps to sell more. Plus, it's so easy to on board it'll be running beforeyour next commission cycle. Ditch spreadsheets and formulas simplifycommission calculation at quote a path dot com Hello and welcome to therevenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host.Today. I am very excited to sit down with a new friends and fellow revenuecollective member V. R and D. Djourou. Viera is the I want to make sure I getthis title right. The brand and digital experience leader, an element ai. Inher previous life, she had been a marketing leader for CPG companies andhas chosen to take this opportunity to really push outside of her comfortzones. We'll talk about VRS experience up until now how she got where she isand what it is like to be one a female leader and then also a woman of colorin a leadership position. And so with that, we are a welcome to the show. I'mvery happy to have you here today. Thank you, Casey, for having me. It'smy pleasure. So we have toe laugh because this is such a 2020 thing.We've tried to record this at least three or four times now, and for somereason, our software will not work with the computer are sound. So we're takingit to zoom and we're making it work. Were being resourceful, as I like tosee. Oh, exactly. Just do a little different this time. All right? So,Vera, I would love if you could take us one. Just maybe tell us what is elementai. And what is your role there today? Help ground our audience. And then I'dlove toe, do a click backwards and hear about how you got here. What? Your pathhas been sure. So element the eyes that B two b A i software company. We workin multiple industries. So, for example, banking where government were also insupply chain manufacturing in terms of companies, size and maturity were fouryears old and actually very exciting. Since we last spoke, Service now hasdeclared its intention to acquire the company. So sometime in 2021 we will bepart of service now. So it's been a really, really big year for us. Ah,lots of excitement. I think I was very well served. I was looking for anadventure, and boy, did I get it and what I do There is namely managed brandand digital experience. So what that means is everything that is notcustomer marketing or slash product marketing is under my purview. What'sexciting about the role is that it's fairly flexible. I work hand in hand orshoulder to shoulder or whatever analogy you wanna used to say thatyou're very closely aligned with e sales ops and sales organization. Soreally figuring out you know what our goals need to be? How do we accomplishthat? What kind of campaigns do we need to run. And obviously making sure thatour SDRs are kind of keeping us in line in terms of messaging and making surethat it lands that it's effective and that our customers that it resonateswith our customers. Well, that sounds like a hell of Ah, I won't even sayyear because I don't think you've been there a year yet. Is that right? Now,I've been there two years. It's gonna be two years. Two years in November. SoYeah, it's been okay. So uneventful. Two years, year one you've got in yourtwo. It was co vid. You guys have intention to get acquired. I would loveto hear a bit about how you how you came toe to take this role. What isyour background as a marketing leader? Like you said, you are in this, uh, youknow, this hybrid role where it's very much concerned with what if sales needhow doe I serve them, but also the integrity of brand and experience. Andsome people do that really well, and I find that others have tension there, SoI would love to dig into your background. So I love that you use theword tension because it's actually the thing I lean into. I think there isreally good tension between sales, the sales ops and marketing when salesholds marketing accountable and marketing holds sales accountable. Sothere is a sense of good tension, meaning that it produces outsideresults for everyone involved. When we're holding each other accountable tohigher performance, I think the tension is bad when the communication is bad.But if the communication is good and everyone is holding each other up tohigher standards, it's it's actually really good tension. And I look for itbecause we tend to report into...

...different leaders. There's also thekind of balancing off K p I. So when you don't have the exact same KP ice,there could be that that friction that's built into the relationship. Butif you have good communication, I find that it's it's usually produces reallygood results. So I want to pause there. How do you manage that? How do you makesure there's good communication, or how do you bring that in when Maybe there'sa deficit of it? I over communicate Okay, that's that's just a default overcommunicating because, uh, Everyone always thinks that it's the otherperson's responsibility to tell them what's up. If you actually go out ofyour way and over communicate at one point, it clicks in, and at one pointthe other person knows what you're about and trusts us in. So I would saythat I sound really smart saying it, but I stole it from someone else. It'sone of the agile coaches that I was working with was explaining to me kindof the dysfunctions of a group, and she was explaining that basically, theroute is trust, but you cannot have trust if you don't have goodcommunication. So really the foundation of communicate with transparency andover communicate until your intentions become so clear because there's such avolume of data to go from, if you want to call it data that the other personstarts to understand. Okay, I see what you're about. I see that you'reconsistently asking for my help. I see that you're consistently taking myadvice. I see that you're consistently looking to improve and I see itconsistently not taking things personally. You know what? Maybe wecould work together, so I think over communicating is is a really great wayto get to a place of calibration. At one point you get to that right beat,but in the beginning, just over communicate until until trust citizen.I think that's so fabulous. And I think the book you were referencing is fivedysfunctions of a team where they actually, you know, break down. And ifyou all are listening, there's plenty of resource is online. There's a bookyou can have audible, but it started in agile, but I know that I had a salesorganization that I was running before, and we use that a lot. We use thatacross leadership. We used it across, you know, innovation anytime you'rebuilding something new, and that's certainly the case in an earlier stagecompany, new hires coming in, having that grounding or that foundation of Ilove what you said over communicate till intention and trust is clear. AndI think that's you know, whether your sales marketing later or anyone goinginto to what companies such a key key point. So you're you look for thattension, you said. You lean into it, talk to me about your experiences, youknow, either in sales or marketing getting into a position of leadership.So So, yeah, I think I think, as you go into commercial roles and you start toget your hand put to the fire. I think the first feeling I would tell you interms of what it feels like to get into commercial rolls or commercialleadership roles is discomfort, because all of a sudden it's no longer the team.We it's like you did or did not x y Z, and that could be extremelyuncomfortable. The first few times you get exposed to it because, yes, you arepart of a team. But as the leader, it's your responsibility, and you areaccountable if you do or you do not. I think that is the first thing that yougo in. And I think sales professionals get their hand put to the fire earlieras they go through the ranks. So I think that that discomfort isassimilated. So example first Q B R around the table. Everyone is lookingat it and maybe your marketing manager and you've been managing teams for alittle while. But you've never been part of that bigger forum. I think thatfirst kind of laser focus of you did or you did not accomplish X y z goal Andthat heat that goes into your cheeks. So I'm black. So I'm not red, but theheat, Israel and not getting defensive. It's definitely something that takes awhile to get into to really lean into kind of feedback and say, Okay, youknow, maybe I don't love the message, but is there some truth to that? Andwhat could I have done differently? So I think it takes a lot of time toreally remove the emotion from the feedback and try toe grab the learning.So I think that that was definitely the first difficulty and not trying to beall like, Well, you know what I did? I did my marketing plan. And if it didn'twork, it's because nobody cares. You know what? Nobody is listening. Youjust didn't. So what you gonna do differently? So I think that was mybiggest learning. Uh, don't take things personally. That was the goal. Hedidn't achieve it. Why? What you gonna do differently? That's it. Move on. SoI think that's a really I mean, you were saying sales have these thesesharp edges, so to speak. And I think that's such a great way to say thatI've never heard it articulate it that way. But that, absolutely, is the case,right? I have to hit my numbers or I don't I'm responsible for revenue orI'm not. That's my job track or it's not. And so there's this very black orwhite, you know, switch on or off. E totally get that. I hadn't heard itarticulated, but in marketing, what you just said is very much Ah, marketersresponse. I have a control. I did an...

...experiment what did or did not work andhow will I optimize? So I wonder. I like what you mentioned around thattension. It's, you know, sales might bring you some more of those sharperedges, but you may be able Thio go to, you know, your sales peers or theorganization. And really, we don't often say this, but dehumanize it. It'snot about you, the individual that did or didn't. It's Instead, here's ourexperiment. Here's what we learned. Here's how we can optimize. I haven'tlearned all of that very well. I will say I have the ability to not take thatfeedback feels so personal, especially as a leader. You know, I think it's itpierces through the armor. Yeah, yeah, for me, for sure. And it's hard. I mean,especially if if you put everything into it and then you start to think,you know, maybe I can't do it. So then, of course, it gets super personal, ButI think that's the That's the part. If you have a really good team around thetable and you're really looking at the problem and not whether you did it oryou didn't do it, I think it could be fun. Um, I've been in environmentswhere we weren't hitting our numbers, and then it's not fun. But if you aredoing relatively well and there's really that sense of camaraderie aroundsolving whatever the problem is, I think it's those moments are fantasticand you really feel like one team when you're on the losing streak. It's verydifficult to feel that way, and people will point fingers. That's just kind ofhuman nature. But there is that there are instances where that feelsfantastic. Yeah, I think that's such a such a salient way of saying it. And soI'm curious. You know, it's my understanding that the technology worldwould be to be tech. World is new to you, You career started. Is CPG correct?And so what do you see is the biggest difference in those two worlds as farasthrough the lens of being a marketer. So I was not accustomed to theenterprise sales model, which is a very complex, and, I find, honestly, superinteresting psychological like jiu jitsu. So if you think about largedeals and you think about the friction that exists in converting not just aperson but a buying committee through the journey, I mean, that's next level.So if you think about TPG or if you think about retail and you think abouta ticket price of $100 the friction that's inherent in the conversation orin the transaction rather it is so much smaller than you're looking at.$350,000 million deal. 15 people, different perspectives, different roleswithin the organizations, different agendas. One person I'm shopping forSaturday night for a pair of shoes, so very, very different psychology, and Ithink that the the skill that it takes an organization toe orchestrate thatconversion through the funnel of something that is such a high ticketitem so complicated to explain, complicated to install, to use anexpensive to upkeep is like it's a completely different psychology. So Ifind that fascinating. Do you have? Do you prefer one versus the other now,having having done both? Well, I prefer what I have, no less. So I'm still verycurious about the enterprise sales model simply because it's like it'sunbelievable. It is, Ah, it's a really, really still human relationship basedtransaction and to try to codify that I find that really interesting. So whatdid the playbooks look like? What does emotions How do you repeat those? Howdo you systematize so that you can scale so that becomes predictable whenit's human? I find that super interesting. Any tips or trips, becauseI feel that that was that was probably one of the biggest challenges in mylast role is that you may have an individual who is able to come up withtheir unique system, but to scale that across two layers of human capitalinternally to your organization and then externally, to whatever company.And there may be similarities, but there's also a tremendous difference isone 100%. But I think eso one of the things that become obsessed withrecently is taking a look at what some of thesis Ailes counterparts are doingin terms of training. So I think one of the key factors of systematize ingtraining and that's what I see being repeated over and over again in termsof success factor. So the human element is one. So maybe they have strengthsthat are specific to the areas where they're gonna have an outsized impact.But there is a playbook that could be systematized. And then it's about, Ithink, the coaching and the training. So what I find really interesting isthose sales leaders who take an inordinate amount of time to investback into their teams and to train into coach. So that is, I think thedifference between being able to hit...

...your numbers and being able topredictably repeat those those motions. So that's what I'm finding is maybe thekey is everything around the systematize ing, the documenting andthe training. I really like that aspect of we're going to systematize thetraining and then allow part of the beauty of sales is the human element.It is that that you and I have different experiences, you know,expertise and we're able Thio, bring those those unique talents, skills,gifts, all of that into the role. And so focusing on what is our control,which is training. Everyone can go through the same process. The outputsmay be different. Some people on better. Worse. We may then be able to chartthem or approach. But that's the place. And I have found I'm curious of yourtake. But by the time a sales organization is ready to make a higherand maybe marketing thio, they're usually at a deficit. They're usuallydrowning, and so the manager or whatever you know, training entity. Itbecomes really burdensome Thio not only higher and bring on new people, butthen to properly train and making sure that they are, you're setting them upfor success. It's almost like you're underwater and you're trying to helpsomeone you know up Aziz Well, and that tension there, especially around newteam members building team momentum, etcetera. I personally have found verychallenging. It's true. You're right. I think that there is that the ideal. Andthen there's the reality of managing and then kind of prioritizing. It'sit's super tough, but I think the way I've seen it said the best is like therule of 1%. If that person improves 1% every day for 365 days, it's likethere's something crazy, like 37% better or 37 times rather better Sothat one to the infinity, it za crazy help incremental improvements DrOutsized performance. So that consistency in that training. In theend, I think we have to think of it almost like an efficiency metric whereyou're saying, if I don't put the time in this is ultimately kind of what I'mlosing out on, and I think that's what we need to tell ourselves and ourmanagers when we're being told Hey, deliver this short term goal where youhave, like, say, 40 hours in a week and you need to kind of chunk your time.But if you don't put in the time on your team doesn't put in the time andyou consistently deteriorate because you're not improving, then That gap is kind of an efficiencymetric that needs to be accounted for somewhere. So it's Either you leavebecause you're not able to deliver sustainably or that person in your teamleaves because they're now drowning and they need to be coached. So I haven'tfigured it out. You're right. There's, like the ideal and then the rial andreal life. But But that needs to be baked into the culture somewherebecause at the rate at which teams are expected to grow and deliver, I mean,something's gotta give if something does have to give. I thinkthat that is that is so well said. And so I'm curious. What is your team looklike? Inside of element? What? Who are you managing? And then also, who areyou reporting? Thio. So I had two phases. So at first when I came in, Ireported into a marketing VP that BP has since left, and now I reportdirectly into a co founder and chief chief operator. In terms of team, myteam has shrunk a little bit. Unfortunately, I think we're all inthat situation. So right now I have a team of about eight people and it'sbands, Uh, so a B M paid a social PR design, events, content and Web. I'veread somewhere that the management effectiveness goes down after a numberof six people. That six is kind of your sweet number to manage. So I'm curious.I mean, do you find managing eight people challenging? Yes, because ifyou're honest, you would like to given our toe every person in a week. Yeah,and at eight people, eight hours, you can't do it. So what ends up happeningis you given our every two weeks and for some and the team, that's enough.But for some, it's not. So I found that your you're not able to necessarilyadapt to to the team member. So you, you, you it's a little bit rougher interms off expectations. That might. So either you lower your expectationsbecause you know that you're not giving them everything that they need or youneed to have a tough conversation and say, I don't think that you're going tobe able to sustain the expectation without a significant amount ofcoaching. Mhm. That's a hard conversation to have, especially when the system itself maybe a little flawed to your point of Hey,...

I don't I can't pour this into you andrecognizing it's it's less of pointing fingers. It's more of just a assessmentof the situation and being able to surface that two employees. But I thinkone of the things in a startup that I found is, uh, different from a verystructured environment is it is a lot more forgiving for these kinds ofthings, so people will throw their back into it a little bit more than, let'ssay, in a very structured environment where every move is a blind, you canask for exceptions. You can. You can tweak the week. You can ask for alittle bit more because people are bought into this ideal of what you'retrying to accomplish collectively, that you might not get with more of a like acorporate setting. Going from big corporate's to start up world on A we'll just talk less salesmarketing that just doesn't employees as someone that's a very going intodifferent company culture. Do you have a preference or are their observationsthat you've seen that that make you favorite one versus the other? Idefinitely like having team members or colleagues who have an entrepreneurialbent, whether they're in corporate environments or in a startup, becausethey're they feel responsible for the outcome. They're not punching in. It'sreally whatever it is that they have in front of them. They want to deliver,they want to accomplish and it's theirs on. And I think working with peoplelike that is a lot of fun because they're not going to rest until it'sdone. So I don't know if it's about the environment or about the profile, butdefinitely people who have that entrepreneurial profile tend to takethings to heart and on take it to the next level, which which makes work alot more fun. Yeah, definitely more fun, and I find that there's differentenvironments, conserve you A different seasons of life is you know there are.There are times that you're able to be all in when it comes Thio work and youwant Thio. You know, if this is successful, were all successful kind ofthing and that there's other seasons where a job truly maybe a job just inrecognizing that and I think having the experience of both will. Probably Veryinteresting is you go through your career to understand, you know, almostthe levers you wanna pull. And what is the right environment based on whereyou are in life for sure, For sure. So why did you decide to go to a startup?Why? What was there? Was that intentional? Was it an opportunity thatcame up? I want to know. What was I was I was I was obsessed with going toelement. I was obsessed with the company. I harassed them. I wasrelentless and getting it. So the company that I was at before it wasfantastic and I had had many, many opportunities for growth. And, uh, Ithink it was just one of those times where, unfortunately, there's just maybe nothing left to do. I had been there 10 years, so that's okay, you know whatI mean. So I really was quite intentional and where I wanted to goand and we talked about this before, I really wanted to be 50% uncomfortable,so I knew I had a significant amount of leadership background, digital know how,analytics, etcetera, that I could bring and structure that I could bring toelement, but I didn't have to be. I didn't have software. I didn't know A II don't know what it's like to market a scientific lab, so these are all supernew things. And I felt like if that was the exchange, that that would beextremely beneficial, and I was very uncomfortable. I stillam. It's a really, really uncomfortable environment, so I really wanted toprovoke it, and I don't know if it's going to sound sexist, but I reallythink that it's good for women to do that, especially as we get older and aswe become more and more expensive and, uh, if you don't want to be put on aand this is my opinion, so you can hate on it. But it's my opinion. If youdon't want to be put on the shelf of like a nice a nice lady, I think youhave to show some teeth, sometimes surprised, you make some moves that areon characteristic and put some skin in the game. So I wanted to surprisemyself. I wanted to. This is going to sound cliche, but like disrupt myselfand be uncomfortable and and show myself that I could still do it andhopefully continued to do that to show that I'm invested in my career, thatI'm ambitious and I'm willing to take some risks. So that was kind of themove. I think, you know, as as you grow in your career, you start thio, youstart thio command a certain amount of of money, and you start to expect acertain amount of responsibilities. But if you don't want to be in thesituation where you could easily be, um, kind of pushed to the side, you have tokind of change the game. So So that was my That was my intention. Oh, there'sso much don't back here. I I love all the controversy you just dropped in agood way. So one, I think that marketers in general and taking genderout of it, But just even age, that's...

...something we see a lot around CMOs ormarketing leaders that they age out and many times because you do have emergingtechnologies. The systems and tools are becoming easier to have access to.Early on in your career, you can automate a lot of it and essentiallyget the same expertise air quotes for much cheaper so that I think is anatural thing in your field as it is layer in ah, working woman and some ofthe tensions that are within that as a marketer. Those double, you know,double down. And I think for you to say it's more around the career you'rebuilding is I want to demonstrate that I have tenacity and grit and know howin resourcefulness and range and range less about the thing I'm doing. That'sgreat that I can market, but we can all look things up online and I'm I mean,I'm being a bit facetious, but we can all like Google it and figure it out.But I'm exactly I'm demonstrating that I have something that accompany mycharacter is what company X y Z will want. And then I can figure out therole within. Yes, and I think what you want to show is that you're able tobring that change with you where you go. So not to say that you're going to bein change change agent again, air quotes, but but to say this is anextremely dynamic period, and I have it inside of me. I am able to dive into itand come out on top. I think is ultimately what you want to show. Youwant to show that to the team so that they trust you and follow you. You wantto show that to your leadership and you want them to say, Hey, you know whatshe came in doing? X, y and Z But we've put 12 and three challenges in front ofher. And every single time she's come up with something creative that isadded value across the organization. Huh? So you want people thio takenotice. And I think you also want to create confidence which is the otherthing that as you age you start to lose because you're not as exposed. Let'ssay as when you are deep in the trenches and then you you wanna makesure Can I still deliver? Um, I still is sharp. Can I still do? X, y and zCan I still reinvent myself? Can I learn these new skills? Can I Can I bea duer? Can I be a coach of coach is gonna be so you want to see You knowwhat kind of range Can I adapt? And I still adaptable? Or do I become rigidas I age? So ultimately, you want to show that you're still extremelyflexible and able to come up with new solutions? Be creative. That tenacityyou were talking about and that creativity is ultimately what you wannawhat you want to be about. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna put on mychallenger hot if I'm listening to this. I'm hearing this. I mean, I'm like,hell, yes. And then the inner voice inside of me says, But what if I fail?What if I don't have the range? What? You know, you start to ask, and so I'mcurious in making this shit. You said you wanted to be 50% uncomfortable. Youwanted to really push yourself 50% of significant. Did you ever have thattalk truck? Yeah, totally fail this. I could totally screw this up. And 100%Yeah, every day. But I think I think I think Did you read this book? Feel thefear, but do it anyway. Like it, Xena. Right now? Yeah, Z. So why would thatemotion drive your action? So yes. Yes, you're very fearful. And but why wouldthat determine your next your next action? We know that emotion is not agood trigger to base, to base your professional instinct on it's a feelingkind of like the weather. So I would just say that, yes, you're going tofeel the fear, but you're going to try to push through it, and that shouldn'tbe the reason why you do something or don't do it. It could be in thebackground, and you could still act quite differently because they lackedconfidently. Even though you're not, How do you coach your teams on that? Ithink you need to make an environment where they see you fail in its okay, Soif you have a great example, I we all talk about like, failure so great. ButI think that being really tangible about it can sometimes be challenging.So I think putting out a hypothesis on campaign X y Z so something low stakesand it's no good, like it's shit, that the performance of shit it didn't gowell and having a conversation with others around the table about why it'snot good and taking ownership. So saying Haiti member X Y Z. I take fullresponsibility for that. We didn't create the right environment for thisto be a success. So why isn't it a success? So really trying to talk aboutagain? Similarly to the earlier conversation we had around beingshoulder to shoulder with sales and saying, Hey, why didn't that? Whydidn't that work? Doing that same thing with your team shoulder to shoulderreally helps. So going through almost like the recipe of what you thought wasgoing to work and then what? Didn't so...

...that you So that you create thatobjectivity because again, if people are brought in, they're gonna feelthey're going to feel something about not delivering. They're going to feelthat accountability. They're going to feel like they let you down. But if youtry toe, say, Hey, we're all we're all feeling that But let's let's look atwhat actually what we actually did and didn't do. And let's try to look at thewhat the difference is, what do we control and what can we do differentlyis one way I found is very effective, so really looking at it quiteobjectively, the other thing is to give people a chance to improve. So it's notso its to say, Hey, you know what? It's an iteration. I find that word reallyhelps people remove some of the pressure of not performing. There's anext time. What are we going to do differently? I find it helps me. And Ifound it helps. The team is well just to say, Oh, great learning. I used tohave the CMO. He was a Swiss, Swiss, Italian and yeah, this really thickaccent and he would always talk about That's a great learning. So whenever wewould really mess up big, it would be a great learning. So So I find evenlanguage can help not and not being accusing, saying Wow, that was a reallygreat learning. What did we learn? So trying to use language that is lesstriggering. But then, you know, making people accountable, saying What is itthat we did and didn't do? And what are we going to do differently and howwe're gonna make this systematic? So using the process toe offset some ofthis emotion and then trying Thio not dig in and make people feel I feel likethey did it all on their own and that there's no team around it and that youas their leader and not taking responsibility for ultimately, what isyour team and your failure? Right, right. I find that and you mentioned instartups that you find there's some flexibility in process and structurejust given the nature of the business. I also have found in smaller earlierstage companies that because it is very familial, it is very friendly that attimes, also delivering the hard feedback can be challenging becausewe're all in the trenches because we all know we mean well and are doingwell. But at times you have to really be direct. You have to say hard thingsor have difficult discussions. Employees and teams. I wonder if youhave any perspectives on that or tools I a lot. I completely agree, and Ithink as a manager, especially if you're young manager, you're closersometimes an age to your team than you are to your own management and closerand experience etcetera. So sometimes it's very difficult to take on thatrole, and it feels fake. I found that I read Kim Scott's book Radical Candor.It really, really helped because it started to give me a sense that some ofthe instincts that I have had were really good about caring deeply. So thebase again is that communication carrying deeply so that you're able towhen time comes, deliver that candid feedback in a way that is not accusing,still loving but direct. So that was the way I found. I found that book tobe an epiphany, like in terms of framing that in a way that was alignedwith my values, but also with the fact that I have grown the most when I'vegotten super direct feedback. So again, why would I deprive the team off thegrowth? I like that you made it about them and their growth. It's not aboutIt's hard for me to tell them that it's Instead I have to do this in Service ofGrowth and Kim Scott's book. It similarly was an epiphany for me tochange my life. I think honestly of ability. Yes, that was me back up anddown, being able to articulate it up, and I found that there are people notalways bosses that I had, but there were people that exemplified theprinciples in that book of carrying deeply but being direct really well.And I was drawn to them and, you know, as I started to really assess thepeople around me team members, clients, even family members, etcetera. Butthere were also I became hyper aware that there weren't a ton of leaders. Isaw doing this really well, No, and that was hard for me. And I think thatespecially I came from the tech world startup world. A lot of that There area lot of male leaders and their communication. Sometimes they don'talways established the care deeply, and I recognized it's a majorgeneralization. But I do want to talk about being a woman leader. I foundthat vulnerability and the ability Thio tap more into that emotional side cameorganically to me as a woman than some of my male counterparts. And I thinkthat's such a valuable piece because I also saw my male counterparts learningfrom that and because to start to flex that muscle. But I think that's wherethe idea of representation of different ways of leading of the way people look,that you know who they are and having that in leadership is so important.Because to me that communication breakdown can deter me from joining ornot joining an organization. It can inform whether I am willing to putmyself in a high pressure, high stakes environment in which we're gonna caredeeply and be kind. Ah, high pressure,...

...high stakes environment where you winor you lose. I completely agree. And I think it's probably something you didyou were able to fashion with time. So as you started to kind of pulling partsthe information from the different environments, you started to see whatwas an indicator of fit, not fit. And, uh, that's just experience, right? Likewith time, you start Thio, you start to develop that you start to develop thatsense of not just sure that, but that's not just discourse. I'm not sure thatthat team is actually feeling what they're saying, and I wonder if youknow they're going to deliver. Ah, warm, loving but still high performanceenvironment. But I agree with you in terms of finding those those kind ofunicorns that exemplify both the deep, the deep caring and the candor Ihaven't found. But I found people who have been great, great incarnations ofone, but not the other. And I've tried to kind of take what I could from allof the leaders that are around me and say, Hey, you know, there's a littlebit of that that I love about this leader. There's this this from that onethat I really love to kind of create this Frankenstein off great, a kind ofleadership in action because the book is still theory. But when you see it inaction in context, within the environment that that, you know andwithin the company that you see with the people and you kind of BC, theresponse of the of the audience, or of the of the teams you start to be ableto adapt it and make it your own. But it's definitely not an exact science.Not at all, not at all. I am. There was something you had said I first of allthe Frankenstein analogy, I'm literally imagining this very cute communicationlike bubble That's Frankenstein together. So thank you for that. Exact.Um, Well, guys, you're seeing the real real time. Hit a wall here. No, therewas something that we've talked about that really, really struck me. Maybearound the team, feeling one way by actually acting another. Are you ableThio? Talk about any of your experiences where you've been able toreally decipher that. See that and then pull out the truth. No, I don't have anexample, but I could tell you that one of the powerful ways I've it's afeeling when people are kind of ITT's. Not really so example. We've all beenin a in a room where we know there's tension, but nobody wants to call itout. And you know, you're in a meeting and nobody's talking and it's superawkward. So I will give you another gift, and this is comes from somebodydid. A panel with her name is Julie, and she said her go to when she gets toa place when she knows there's something she says, Where's the poop?And I was like, Oh, that's terrible, but at the same time, it's true,because if you just say, Hey, what's the elephant in the room? Everyone'sgonna look at you and be like, What do you mean, no elephant? But there'ssomething about that word which makes people kind of laugh. And it allows youto break through that, that whatever it is that is kind of making everyone actact fake. So that, I found is able. I was able to kind of break that early ina conversation or in a presentation or in a kind of group brainstorm where youfeel people are kind of like e don't know this weird in this weird space. Soduring that early in the conversation breaks the ice, I found also in thistime of cove, it that breakout rooms could be very, very good. So using Zoomtrying to do breakout rooms to really get people to open up. But sometimesit's about that big group, right? We've all seen it were like 18 tiles on azoom call, and and some people are posturing. So, you know, getting inthere trying to do maybe subgroups and really getting to the heart of thematter can can really help. But I found that it zvehr e difficult to address agroup behavior. Yeah, there's the male Chimps CEO Ben Chest night, he I sawhim speak and he had a phrase so on your poop phrase, he said. Put the turdon the table. E no, it's terrible. E o team put the turn on the table like weneed to talk about whatever this is. And I love that It came from leadershipof pushing that to say, Listen, something's going on here. Let's all eYeah, I could smell it. So yeah, I completely agree. So there's somethingabout PC is obviously that never exactly like poop. But there'ssomething about being so craft that kind of cuts through the BS again poop.But, uh but, yeah, I think I think that's very effective. But it's verydifficult to address a group. Behavior one too many. It's much, much easier tokind of break it down and for sure. So you have spoken with an incredibleamount of self awareness you have talked about. I want to be 50%uncomfortable. I want to go. If I'm gonna make a move, I wanna go ThioElement hyper aware of communication styles, But you also have a day job,and I find that you know, as as someone...

...rises in the ranks and becomes betterand better at their job, more responsibility, it can at times bereally challenging toe also hit the time out and say, I need to selfreflect Who am I? How am I showing up is a leader as a professional? And I'mcurious if you experience that tension or how you carve out time and space toalso focus on, you know, we are a and and the journey you want to go on, notjust within the role you're in today. So that's not an area where I excel. Ifind it still something I struggle with, like time out and I have not gottenthere. It's something I'm aware I need to work on, but it's really not there.So I find that I over work, that work and life bleed into one another. Idon't know what work like violence is. I've heard of it. I have notexperienced it. There's some days where I'm like there are dishes in the sink.The kids and I run out of the door and we're going to be late for school. So Ithink it's at this point in my in my life. I just try to be forgiving of thethings that are not perfect That's a Sfar, as I've gotten when I get fartherthan that. But you know, But right now that Zoe's faras I've gotten it's likesome days there, Just not good. Mm. Preach to that. Had one of thoseyesterday. One of the things that you said earlier is that 1% better. And soI've heard you mentioned a ton of books. You know, like I said, to hear you say,you're not very good at that. That self reflection and self awareness is verysurprising. Because as we've gone through this, you've dropped severalnuggets of, you know, really good insight. And so I wonder if it'sinstead of you stopping everything and digging deep within if instead it'sthis almost 1%. I'm going to read this book. How can I implement that? Today?I'm gonna observe this, you know, action of a manager or employee, yourteam. And I'm gonna implement this. And maybe it's that incremental. 1%. Oh, Ilike that versus you having like Okay, guys, everything has to stop. I'm goingto go on sabbatical and figure out You know what I want. My e think. I thinkmaybe you're right. I don't know, but I like it. I'm probably going to try touse that. Just thio Try to make it systematic. So it's like, you know, 1%of whatever it's because I like systems, so I like to name it and I like toe like structure it. So when it is notthat to me, it doesn't exist. But maybe I'm doing it intuitively. I doubt it,but maybe, Yeah, I appreciate the and honesty there like No, that soundsgreat, but I'm not doing it. So one thing I did mention at the top of theepisode, and I really would love to know your perspective. Over the pastyear. Specifically, we have increased our conversations around diversity inthe workplace. Women in leadership, people of color, diversity ofbackgrounds, age, etcetera in a former life. I used to say that innovation anddiversity were the two most bastardized words in corporate America becauseeverybody talks about it with the implementation of it and the systems touse your you know, your words aren't there, and I'm curious. As someone whois excelling in their career is taking on more leadership positions. How doyou look at diversity equity inclusion within your company, your team, thebroader landscape. I'd love to hear just any of your perspectives there.Sure, I think everyone in this last year has been kind of prompted to takeposition. So even though I could tell you that I was sensitive to diversityand inclusion efforts, I can't claim that I was active, meaning position andusing my influence to drive change. I found that the younger generation, likeyounger people, are great at sparking the conversation because I think one ofthe things that I think I took for granted was things are as they are, so they're like, No, things are not asthey are. Things are what you make them. So oh, that is so true. So I find thatit's a really interesting time also to think across generations and to haveour Children or the generation that follows talk back about the legacywe're leaving and it's the same ideas, this idea of saying Are we reallydelivering against the things that we say we believe in, and if so, what arewe doing concretely and if so, how? And if we're doing that in a way that isimproving. What do we have to show for that? I find they're holding usaccountable in a way that is similar to the rest of our conversation. You know,you're being held accountable to a higher objective, and I think we'vebeen feeling them. That's definitely the the sound I've been hearing acrossthe board. But I think it's a conversation that they are driving andthat we need to responded to. So so I found it. It's actually quite humbling,and it's a lot of the time the team educating me on language, on positionson legacy thinking, and it's also a...

...good way for you to show that you don'tknow everything. There is some things which are preconceived notions thatyou've incorporated and and that you're open to changing. But you have blindspots. So I found it to be extremely constructive conversation, extremelyuncomfortable because you realize how many biases you actually have. And it'slike you never even knew how many you had, even as a woman of color. Theamount of thinking that I have, which is dated for lack of a betterexpression, is surprising, so I think e think it's holding ourselvesaccountable and having that very, very direct dialogue with a generation thatis a little bit more aware than that, at least I am and trying to do betterand do that in a way that's measurable. I just I really believe measurable isbest, and I think you should do things in the open. So I believe that it'sabout, you know, systems and targets and behaviors and practices and newways of hiring. And what about education? And then you think aboutwell, if you're talking about education, what about housing? What about incomelevels? What about societal injustice? So then you start to broaden thecircles and you say, OK, well, maybe there is some areas that are that arecompletely un broached that we need to look at, but we need to chunk it downbecause it's huge in terms of how broken it is. So so,for example, I'm East African and the black experience is very varied butquite rich. So one of the things that every single person of color will tellyou that they've experienced is prejudice, but the way that they'veinternalized it is probably very different, depending on what theirheritage and history is so It's a really interesting conversation and oneof the things I did this year and I think like a lot of people like tookposition after George Floyd and I said, You know what? I'm going to invest mytime and energy in combating systemic racism in a way that is visible. And soI joined an organization called The Black Opportunity Fund and one of thethings we want to do is create a billion dollar front for for small andmedium sized businesses because that's a belief that I have. I think it'seasier to measure economic empowerment than, let's say, some of the morelonger winded, more societal ills which I think are best solved throughgovernment. So so in my small way, I think I found a place that I I think Icould drive impact. But it's definitely been prompted by by events outside ofmyself and definitely by awareness that's been that's been really I thinkthat awareness came with kind of the people around me and the kind ofconversation that we were having, the teams that work, the kinds of thingsthat they were feeling telling me sharing and how how much it impactedthem. Definitely created a conversation that does make that has been extremelyrich, very painful, the very rich that was so beautifully said. And Iappreciate you, you know, speaking to your experience and observations andthe honesty and vulnerability to say, Listen, I had my own thoughtschallenged and beliefs in this. I found that sometimes we we can observe andobviously, you know, I'm a white woman, and so my experiences are verydifferent. But what I have found is when I look at the whole, it'soverwhelming to know where to start, how to get involved. But what I have. Afriend of mine told me that she was in the career coaching and team buildingshe, you know, very successful in that space. And she said, I there's a lot ofplaces I could start, But one thing I can give is exactly the things that Ido for, you know, organizations and companies I can give to the communitythat I want to help so I could go work with young people. I could go work withpeople of color, low income, etcetera, and I don't have to do everything, butI could do this in my way, and that resonated so much with me. I We werehiring a team member similar to you after George, George Floyd and really,you know, stopped back, I think just a much broader conversation and somethingas simple as putting an educational requirements in a job description. Doyou need to have a masters to be really good at sales? No, I don't. I thinkthere's a lot of people that are and so being able to really challenge thatassumption of what does that What does that say? Well, who are the individualsthat maybe have gone on that trajectory? Are there things that we can say? Youknow, an unenviable means You're have a learning mindset. Okay, cool. That'ssomething that you can have Is that you, you know, you are willing for putyourself up for a challenge or take on risk and responsibility. Those airthings that become measurable, not the thing. Do you have this or you don't,because who knows? The life circumstances that may prevent anindividual or allow an individual toe...

...have that. And so that was such atangible, small way that really reframed, You know, how do I bring thisin In a way into my organization? Not in a way that you control, right? LikeI think this is my contribution. This is what I can control. And this is verydifferent from what was done. And it should bring very different outcomesthat No, I completely agree. And I think that's what everyone ischallenged with you. Look at the you look at the size of the of thechallenge and you're just like, Well, how can I even challenge is how can Ieven contribute to something that has taken us so long to put up as achallenge? It's not gonna be done in one generation is going to take time tounpack, unwind and and undo. So where do I begin? So then it's very easy tobe defeated and say I'm not going to do anything, and I think that that's whatwe found. We are no longer able to do that. The generations that follow willnot accept. And I think it's fantastic to to have have created that kind ofdialogue where they are expecting us to do better. And I think it. Z createdthe right kind of response, I think, because when it's your own childtelling you while you know what are you going to do differently, Mom, and howare you going to make a difference and how are you going to contribute? All ofa sudden? It's a very personal conversation about what you is, theirmother or us, their friend or us, somebody to look up to, are doing tomake the world that they live in tangibly better. And then it's nolonger a conceptual conversation. It's What are you doing with your time andyour money? Hmm? Yes, I think there's two things I'll take away from today'sconversation. I'll take away a lot, but the two headlines are be okay with the1% because even just what we talked about, being able to just doincrementally better is better than doing nothing and overtime outsizedrewards. It's 37%. I think it's 37 times if you do that over 365 days, oneto the power of 3 65. I think it's I think it's like 37%. At 37 times bigger.It's like it's it's insane. The amount of improvement and not to me feel somuch more approachable than having to do it all or waiting for this bigreveal. It's much more of an experimental mindset which marketersare great at, and I think that's amazing. And then the second page isthe 1% was the first one. Guys, it's five PM you guys, Um, but the second,oh, the accountability, the accountability piece because you saidthat that came up several times and accountability with sales,accountability, with marketing, accountability with younger generations,accountability yourself. Accountability. I actually thinks push it pushes you todo fewer things better. Mhm. Then just saying I can't do them all or I can'tdo any because it's just too many to start. It says no, do few things better.And then once you hone those, once you become an expert, those once whateverthat that accountability is, you then can move on or grow or whatever that is,but without having done those really well, you're not excellent at anything.And so I e Those were the two salient points, despite me having five oclockon a Wednesday afternoon brain. Those are the two points that I'm taking awayfood. This is great talking to you so I could talk to you all day. You're verygood at this. Crazy Thank you. Are you are a swell. I I I'm laughing stillthat you don't feel self aware because you are. You are one of the more stuffwhere people I've had the chance to sit down with so well, thank you very much.Thank you for having me. I could do the same time. Excellent. Well, we willhave you back any time. This is the revenue collective podcast. My name isCasey, like Gordon, and I'm your host. We'll see you next time. All right. Another episode of therevenue Collective podcast down. They are in a guru. She was such a wonderfulguest. I swear. I had a pen and paper out and was taking vigorous notes. Asas we went through some great books and great tips and tricks. My name is Casey.Like Gordon, I'm your host. Before we sign out, I wanna give a shout out toour sponsor. This episode was brought to you by quota path. Quota path is thefirst radically transparent and and compensation solution from sales repsto finance Get started for free at quote a path dot com and your nextcommission cycle could be totally automated. See you next time.

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