The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 4 months ago

Ep 186: Using Creativity In Sales w/ Kris Rudeegraap, CEO Sendoso

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 186: Using Creativity In Sales w/ Kris Rudeegraap, CEO Sendoso 

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

All right, Welcome to the Pavilion podcast. Thank God it's monday. I am your host Tom Alamo. This is the show where revenue leaders come to learn the tips, the tricks, the tactics that they need to be successful in their operating roles. Um, excited to be coming at you with some great content today. I've got chris Rudy, he is the Ceo of Sando. So the leading sending platform on the show, it was a real, a real treat to talk to him to hear about what's going on in the business. Talk about creativity for sales, which is definitely a passionate point for me um and talk about why he doesn't do anything related to New Year's resolutions to kick off the year. So before we get to the great content, let's first give a word to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Show pad who is a global leader in revenue enablement technology to some revenue enablement means making sure your revenue teams have access to the right content at the right time. To us. It means helping revenue teams create rich experience for buyers, engaging whole buying teams and virtual deal rooms and using data insights to spot intent spikes, improve marketing content and conquer the world. More than 50 countries, customers rely on the show pad. Revenue enablement platform to build collaborative experiences, buying teams love So opportunities turned into revenue faster. Show pad has been named a strong performer by Foresters wafer sales content solutions, recognized as a top 10 software company by G two enlisted in Deloitte's fast 50 learn more at dot com. One last note before we get into this, you can learn more and follow me on linkedin. My name is Tom Alamo. I work over at gong. I also run a weekly sales podcast called Millennial Sales. You check that out as well Without further ado, let's get into my content with chris All right, chris, Rudy grab ceo of Sando. So welcome to the Pavilion podcast. How are you? I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, I'm excited too. To get cracking. Were a couple of weeks recording this a couple weeks away from the year end. I don't know if you can see the bags under my eyes, but, but I'm in, I'm in some dog fights right now and, and trying to, trying to do everything I can. So I'm sure, I'm sure you've got 10 times as much going on as the ceo of a hot startup, so I appreciate it. Yeah, me too. I think it's uh, you know, great to chat with you and have fun on your personal podcast a while back and so excited to continue the conversation on another fun topic. Yeah, for sure. And are you still in the, in SAN Francisco or the bay since we last talked to you? Yeah, exactly. Still just a little north of SAn Francisco and Moran Nice. It's a great spot. Um, so there's a lot that, um, I want to get into today and you know, I think one of the main topics that I think gets under...

...talked about in sales circles is creativity and I think what gets over talked is quantity is kind of like the salesforce predictable revenue model is you know, jam everything into a sequence and just kind of let that play and and let sdrs just kind of like click a button all day or eighties, click a button all day. Um and I think your story of when you were in a uh that led to your idea of siendo. So was um you know really kind of like the spur of creativity like how can I get creative to win deals to provide a better experience for my prospects and for my customers. So maybe before we get into sentosa stuff you could just kinda share, share and we share that origin story of being an A. E. And kind of coming up with the initial concept of it. Yeah, for sure. So real quick for those who don't know what sin does so is yet. So we are sending platform that helps other companies specifically sales reps, send out direct mail, custom gifts, handwritten notes, you name it, we can help you send it out. And so I came up with this concept about five years ago and spent about 10 years in software sales prior to that. So while I was in a e at talk desk I found myself feeling kind of underwhelmed by sending out a gazillion emails and using kind of the the emails, spray and play playbook. Um and it started to get more creative with really trying to find something to get on people's desks or a unique gift for buying someone's lunch or sending a handwritten note or a personalized gift based on a conversation that I had with that prospect. Um and other kind of quirky fun ways to really be more human and really try to like connect with that prospect on a more human level. That email was kind of just diminishing in terms of just like people getting a million emails and so that I was doing a lot of that was packing boxes, right? Note ordering things off of amazon. And I just had this uh kind of epiphany of like, well why can't I just click a button inside of Salesforce and voila something gets sent out and really wasn't anything out there at the time. And so I said, hey, I'm gonna start this and that was the start of Sandoz. So now we're, you know, about 500 plus employees raised, you know, about 100 and 60 million in funding have tens of thousands of users on our platform and our helping tons of salespeople, marketers, customer success folks really be more successful and really, you know, helping create better relationships, I love it. And uh I'm a happy customer uh from, from gong so that as well. So um I'd love to talk about like you're you're bringing essentially what was your process in sales to the masses through siendo. So but all of that stuff you're talking about like when you're doing it by hand, hand packing boxes and handwriting letters and all of that and then sending that to your customers like that's not scalable, right? That's the opposite. I feel like...

...of a lot of what people are teaching nowadays is like That that might take you, you know you got to go to the store, you gotta buy the card, you gotta get stamped, you gotta do all this stuff. So like what's the what's the case for why that works like like why is that a better investment on your time than sending 75, you know generic emails. Yeah so as I think about it and you made a good point earlier is like what can you automate that you and should automate and there's certain things that are obvious to automate now, like some of the sequences like you know back when I was in sales like a decade ago there was a lot of like manual lead enrichment and now that's like all automated in terms of figuring out people's email addresses and this and that or um So so with that, you know I think for being creative as it relates to sending people gifts and kind of standing out in your your sales process I think with Sandoz so it kind of the best of both worlds where you can still be creative, you can still come up with ideas on things that you can send, you can still craft unique handwritten notes but you don't actually have to do the box packing or the posted shipping or the you know the sourcing and storing of all of it too. So I think that's kind of the win win that I like is to think about is that you can automate some things but you you can still keep you know the creative part of gifting as your secret weapon. Mhm. What's your take on? Um So within creativity and sales like is this something that you think needs to be hired for? Do you think it can be kind of like trained and and evolved as someone comes in or do you need to kind of like vet out how creative is this person, you know through the interview process and like what weight do you put on that? Yeah, so I'd say I'll take that in a couple different interactions. So one is you know how critical is uh you know creativity is a skill set in terms of hiring. I think it actually is extremely critical, I think that it's one of those under talked about skills that you know and you can you can you can interview for it, you can have you know challenges where you can ask people certain questions and and find through curiosity how creative they are. You can also, and we do this well too. If you can hire people with more unique backgrounds that are more creative, especially in kind of the str function and see a lot of success there. And, and I think smart salespeople um, um are actually highlighting that they're creative in their own resumes or are talking about that as part of their, you know, unique sales process and process. So I think that, you know, So yes one, I think hiring for it and interviewing for it and adding that as a skill set as if you're in a listening to this is a really unique way to stand out. I'd say second is how do you train for it? So maybe you have people that you don't think are as creative and I think there's different things that you could do that are similar to what you're currently doing today. Like you might block off a little bit of your calendar for, hey, I want to do, you know, prospect research and you know, additionally you could block off time...

...for, hey, what are some creative send ideas I can send to my prospects or what are some creative, let me spend some time blocking creativity for some, you know, revised messaging for my, you know, email, email hang or my cold cold um, kind of topic script. So I think blocking for creativity um is a great way for you to kind of decide, hey, I'm focusing this time on on getting a little bit more creative in what I do in terms of my outreach instead of having to block this time just to automate the heck out of everything. And so I think they go both ways. Yeah, I feel like um this in from my experience, like the the ability to be creative often comes from having autonomy from your leaders wrap because if you're held such strict numbers and the emphasis is always on, you know what the quantity is and what the quantity is, then there's really, you know, it's in your best interest to make sure you hit those targets so that you know, you're kind of following the script. Um whereas if a leader maybe gives you a little more leeway and I'm sure there's trust that needs to be earned, but when they give you more leeway, I think you're able to kind of express that creativity and maybe come up with a solution that no one had thought of yet at the company or on the team and I think that's how great ideas are born. So um curious like what would you recommend to to leaders that are maybe they're listening and realizing shit, Like maybe I'm maybe I'm too numbers oriented and maybe I'm not giving enough free rein to the people? Uh what what are some of your thoughts on that? Yeah, so my thoughts are, you know, can you create a culture of creativity by doing exactly what you said, being a bit more um you know, instead of being so activity driven, can you be results driven? And I think some companies really think, hey, you need to make, you know, 100 cold calls, you need to send 1000 emails, you need to, you know, X, Y. Z. Is what's gonna get you that closed deal. But you know, when I was in a, it was like, you know, I focused more on kind of quality over quantity and really making sure that I had a, you know, a really high closed percentage and I would, you know, as part of that being a more creative personal sales rep played to my advantage. Um So I think that's important. Um and making sure that sales reps can be creative. You know, if you you don't want to like if you're not using a platform like Windows. So, but you're asked to hey, go out and be creative and and send people gifts and and write notes. You might end up frustrating a ease of like, I'm doing a lot of manual, you know, stuff right now, I'm going to post topics etcetera. So what as a manager, can you enable your reps to be better at their jobs through using software that can then they can spend more time being creative than doing kind of manual work. It feels like this is, I mean it's always been important and before I knew what sin does. So was I, you know, back in the day, I would do the same thing. I would buy things on amazon and then, you know, write a note and give them to...

...people and all that. It's kind of a long process. Um, but I see the value. I almost, I think it's only gotten more important in the last like year and a half or two with Covid because Maybe some people are, but I'm not, I haven't seen a customer all year in person. I'm not going to dinner. I'm not trying to close a Q4 deal over a drink or over a coffee, right? It's, it's, it's quite literally all on zoom and, and cell phones. So would you agree? Like from what you've seen in the business, I have to imagine things have just exploded in the last, you know, year and a half. Yeah, exactly. And for that same reason you just mentioned and that, you know, you can't use some of those kind of more personal approaches, which is, hey, let's, you know, let's go play golf, let's go get a drink. Let's, hey, I'm gonna be out in Chicago next week. You're like, hey, you're free to grab coffee and some of those really personal connections is what builds that rapport and a lot of times buyers are buying from a person, they're not just buying, you know, the software, the solution they're buying. You know, the the value that this person is displaying to you and, and especially as there's a gazillion, you know, commoditized products out there in different industries where you might sell something that's semi similar to another competitor, but you're the, the buying experience and the, the seller who's selling can actually differentiate you in, in, in that. And so I think that's something that we're seeing more and more now, is that, you know, where you could have, you know, out personalized the competitor by taking them out to golf. Now. How are you doing that in a, in a more virtual world? And that's, you know why Sentosa has seen such explosive growth is that you can leverage our tool to build that relationship and and really help inspire these human connections more. And I think like when I start to think more tactically about creativity, of course it could be. Um, you know, something like sending a handwritten note, like we've talked about sending a bottle of wine to a customer or gift or cookies or whatever it might be. Um, but I also feel like just if we generalize it more like in creativity, I think it's your language, it's like how do you write emails? It's how do you show up? It's, what are you, what are you wearing on your calls? What's your background? Um, you know, all the different things that I feel like go into your communication, just, I'm thinking about this as a salesperson is like that's that maybe didn't matter as much three years ago? Um Maybe it mattered a little bit but it matters so much now when you're not able to see people. And so it's really kind of thinking about from SDR two, you know, top Enterprise A. E. And all the way around. Like everyone that's interacting with the customer. Like how is everyone kind of putting their own unique spin and making them feel you know special, making them, you know feel the human connection that you have. Um And I think it's just I I think I'm just underlining like how important that I think that is for companies and revenue teams that are gonna win in the coming years. Exactly. And I and I and you said it best. It's like I I preach...

...or overly preach you know gifting and direct mail. That's because what we do but by all means we take that same approach of how do you be creative, How do you be unique? How do you stand out and not just gifting and direct mail but in you know email and phone calls and and everywhere you show up. And I think that's a really important thing is thinking about the kind of the the buying journey and the customer experience, you know and where do you want to be and how do you give sales reps autonomy to create that experience? Can we get, can we talk tactics for a few minutes? Let's do it. So um I mean you're the, you're the king of Sandoz a you're the guy to ask. So I'm curious like there's a few um you know, maybe if we bucket into different types of folks that might use the product, like I'd love to just hear kind of like some ideas that could be how you're using, it could be how customers are using it. Um But maybe you could just rattle off a few ideas of like if I'm a leader thinking about this and I run, you know, an SDR team, a E. S account manager CSM is like how each of them might be able to leverage um you know, sending um as part of, you know, the different kind of tactics that that these folks are trying to hit. Yeah, for sure. So I think, you know, starting with really top top of funnel, you know, whether it's a demand gen marketer or whether it's an SD are really trying to break into account, there's a handful of different things that you can do to to do that. And so I think there's a mix of um are you, you know, sending, sharing some, some content and with that it's like, hey, here's a, you know, a coffee or here's a, you know, Uber eats gift card to enjoy while you read this content and so that's like a, you know, a nice human approach to the conversation where maybe it's less of an ask, but you're just throwing, it is like a pay it forward technique and it's like, oh great. Like I'm hungry, I need lunch. Um, and hey, you're going to show this case study with me. Well, hey, I'll read it. So there's some reciprocity there. Um, so that's really using like a digital gift card. There's also using more of a tactical box where maybe it's a pre kit that, you know, you've, you've thought about is more of something you want to send to lots of different people. Um, you, uh, and so that I think is a technique where you kind of have something that's maybe on brand um, and related like, uh, so if I think it's, that's not specific to every a, but it's like, hey, maybe for gong, it's sending gongs for a call center software company. Like when I was at practice, we would send these headphones out with a little note saying like, hey, use this during your trial. And so it was an easy way to, to grab people's attention, but it's related to the messaging or the brand that's sending it, it's not like a catch all. Um, there's also things top of funnel where you do your research and you see a prospect is a big warriors fan and you send them a, you know, a cool little warriors, you know, yeti mug and you mentioned that in your research that hey you do you like, you know, and I think this is where being creative and kind of using puns comes in. But you could say like something about winning and then hey relating...

...that back to, you know, your solution. And so I think that's where you spend the extra time on, on how do you leverage what you're sending, um relating it to the message of the gift note? So I think that works really well top of funnel and there's other examples there. But moving down the funnel, when you're in a, you know, now you have the, you have the opportunity to, to maybe send an e gift for lunch or coffee for right before the meeting even happens. So you're already starting with really a positive impact. You know, after the meeting you maybe you want to send them a little thank you swag kid or like a little thank you gift for thanking them for their time. Um, and then maybe you're sprinkling things in along kind of to help with deal acceleration instead of just that. Like, hey checking in, maybe you send him over a little printed collateral booklet with some case studies in it so that they can like look through or maybe you're, you're, they mentioned that there or there's a dog barking or you saw a dog picture in the background and you're like, hey, I should send them, we have, you know, some dog swag, let's send him one of those and mentioned that. So I think some of the things that you might as a salesperson already be talking about. I know when I was in sales, I'd always try to take notes on like, oh, you just said you just got back from a trip to spain or oh you, I see a dog barking in the background taking those notes as you usually use those in future conversations, but now you can use that in your gifting strategy. So and then all the way through like a customer welcome kid and other customer related initiatives also work really well. I saw for, for uh one of my customers at gong our marketing team sent them when they got around the funding and got unicorn status, like this big unicorn pinata totally that posted on linkedin and I was like, man, that I didn't even know that was happening. I was like, man, that was awesome. Yeah. Like gong does it better than anyone in terms of like really being fun sending out, being creative so kudos to you and your team. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's it's um it's being able to, I think again, like trying to make it easy um which obviously you folks do and then having again goes back to, I think the leadership, you know, kind of like making sure that folks are are comfortable to do it, they're trained to do it. Um and that, you know, it's kind of like when, when someone has a win, I think the other thing I would add is like when someone has a win, try to share that across the board, right? Um, if someone does something out of the box that's creative and no one else is doing it and they get a win from that and the customer loves it or it accelerates the sales cycle or, um, books a new meeting as an SDR. I think it's only in the leader's best interest to share that all around slack or email or whatever you use to then kind of encourage and kind of create some internal competition between reps and Sdrs. Like who can be the most creative, like who can find the best, you know, newest, most unique way to book a meeting. And I think that's where you create the whole culture where, um, you don't even need to tell people to do it...

...anymore. It's just kind of part of what happens. 100%. We see that across the board for companies having these little slack channels where they're sharing, getting a meeting and what they sent and I couldn't recommend that more and we're trying to even build more of that into our platform to create more share ability. So I love it. Um, so one thing I wanted to just, I wanted to pivot here, uh, to talk about a different topic with you too. And um, I think one thing that's interesting to me is um I think when we're talking about a lot of different things in sass, I feel this in the sales tech world and I'm curious what your take is um in your world as well as like there's just so much, it feels like there's so much funding going around all over the place and a lot of more competition. And I'm curious like for the leaders out there that are sales leaders that maybe have a new competitor in town, Or it's just been a tough battle in 2021, we're kicking off the new year. Like do you have any tips or how do you work with your leaders on differentiation uh in the market and and really kind of staying ahead in that space. Yeah, so I think one of the things um you know, that that we do and that we do frequently is really trying to do more more revenue Kickoffs, rKO s or SKs more frequently than just once a year and we really think about it, just extra time to make sure the teams on the same page, um and make sure that we have strong enablement. And so I think, yeah, being everyone's being remote has siloed information. Um and so as much as you can do to, to get together, you know, I was at a, you know, we have a sale a big sales meeting about a month ago, we have another one in january and so I think that's a good way to think about is how can you have more frequent kind of S. K. O. S and just train and retrain things that you thought are obvious might not be as obvious for this remote sales rep and they're not learning as much by sitting next to everyone in the sales pitch overhearing things, but you have to go out of your way to to share that knowledge. And I think we, we actually do a good job of using gong for this to where we're trying to share snippets of, you know, successful conversations or ways that we're winning against competitors or talk tracks that mention a competitor. Um, and then taking that and sharing that in a slack channel that we have to say to to really give each other um, opportunities to learn from each other, which happened a little less now but happened more when you were just like next to people and you overheard them more. I'm curious um whether you guys are, are using these folks or maybe they've just caught your eye um or or something else like any other, you know, outside of SAN, we mentioned Windows and gone quite a bit, Are there any other tools that like from a sales and marketing perspective on the, on the thought of like creativity, personalizing, standing out um in the crowd, things like that. Um any any tools or platforms come to mind that...

...have been helpful or that you've had your eye on. Yeah. So our sales team was raving about scratch pad and just making it easier to, uh, kind of track notes into salesforce. So I'd say that's one that stands out. I would say I heard we were looking into or um, oh are, um, um, which, um, I've heard good things about that and our teams wanting to use that, trying to think of some other recent, like I've heard that name, but I can't put my finger on it. It's a platform to make it easier to connect for live conversations. So it's basically like an innovation on Cold Calling, which I think, you know, Cold Calling is important. Very important still. But can you, what can you do to be better at Cold Calling than you were years ago? And how do you leverage tech to be better at cold Calling? So I think that's another one that comes to mind. Um, and then outside of the obvious where if you're not using this, like a sequencing tool, like a groove or sales loft or outreach yet, you know, I don't know how you survive. I'm with you. Um, all right, so I want to take you to a couple rapid fires here as we get to it. So, um, first thing we're big learners were big readers on this podcast? I'm curious. Um, what if there's any books that come to mind that have, you know, significantly impacted you throughout your career or any of that? You know, you've, you've checked out as of late that are interesting to you. Um so I'm much more of a podcast listener than book reader, so maybe I'll just throw out some podcasts. So, um, I'm a big fan of podcast snacks daily. Um I really like podcast called planet Money. There's another one called acquired, There's another one called all In. Um so those are some of the ones I listened to like as much as I can every, every day, every week. I'm sorry was the first one snacks like the food? Yeah, snacks daily. I think it's a really, it's like information, entertainment updates from the found from like Robin Hood. So it's a, it's, but it's rather fun way to start my day rather than reading some news, I'll just listen about three cool stories and kind of a more fun way to present them. Got it, it kind of reminds me of morning brew, have you heard of that? Yes, exactly. That's, I would say that's like an equivalent reading version of it. Okay, got it. Got it. Um Alright, what's bumping in the headphones nowadays for on Spotify or apple music or whatever, you know, youtube, wherever you're listening to music. What do you, what do you listen to? Yeah. So I'm a mix of like tropical house music, which kind of gets me going and then a mix of like uh I'd call like Cali reggae, so more of like kind of more modern California, reggae, like revolution kind of...

...nice, nice. I like it. Um We talked about podcasts, any any folks on um you know, linkedin obviously hotbed for sales and marketing and and you know, founder info, but anyone that you've been following uh that that you really consume a lot of their content or like what they have to say on the platform. Um You know, no one that comes to mind directly. I would say another tactic that I use to get information that I really enjoy. I use this app called feed lee. Um and and really aggregating a ton of different blogs and rss feeds or and so what that does for me is it gives me like hundreds of blogs to really scan through each day or blog articles and really pick the ones that catch my attention and then read them in depth. And so I find myself And in that approach versus focusing on kind of one or two people and really getting all their content to like trying to to look at hundreds. I think I've got like 300 blogs that I follow that I then get information from. Do you have to manually pick those 300 over time? I did yeah, I accumulate them. So every once in a while I'll go back in and search for more um and find more blogs to follow and then so a bit of effort, but I enjoy that way of consuming content. I like it. Um So we're getting to the end of the year by when folks listen, this might be the beginning of the year. Um Do you have any um like strategies or rituals or anything that you do like end of the new end of one year, start of the next year, whether that's like, you know, any sort of goal setting, any sort of taking time off, you give yourself a certain challenge, like anything like that or or you kind of like just stick to business as usual and and just do your thing. Yeah, so I'm kind of an uh an always on kind of person. I don't need the end of the year necessarily to like spark a challenge. So I find myself kind of always evaluating if I need to do something, then let me put like a little goal around it. Um So I'd say I'm not one to come up with like New Year's resolutions. I feel like I'm, I'm always thinking about resolutions. Um I also want to like be, you know, traveling or doing things that I love all year round and not really like saving them to the end of the year. So um it's just, you know, another day for me, but that's just kind of my mindset for it. I like it, I like it, you should be, you shouldn't just wait till the end of the year, at the start of the year to do something. Yeah, exactly, challenge yourself more often, but if you need that kind of boxing or kind of forcing function, I think it's, it's helpful for some people, but also maybe look at it as like every month, every quarter, like think about it instead of just once a year, if that's the way that you need that forcing function, yep. Um okay, who's someone in the...

...space? Could be another founder could be a leader that, you know, um that you would like to see on the Pavilion podcast. Yeah, I mean, I, who else would I like to see? I'm, I'm a big fan of, you know what you guys are doing at gong? I would, I would love to hear the journey of from your founder and, and Ceo, I think that'd be a cool um person to get on the show us and trying to think of some other like sales tech Martek, I think the founder of scratch pad, I think they're doing some cool stuff, so that would be another cool company to get on there. Um you know, or um, seeing how they're coming along, probably the different tools I mentioned for for our sales tech stack, getting those founders and Ceos on the show would be cool, I love it, I love it. Um cool man. So as it relates to uh creativity in sales, I think we kind of hit the nail on the head of just like the importance of it, uh some ways to go about it at different stages of of your sales career or just kind of the customer journey, anything that we left off, like any anything else that you want to dive into on that. I think the last thing is really just thinking about having fun with it. I think that's the best part about creativity is just being yourself. I think with some automation people are overly thinking about, hey, I don't want to mess up, I I need to, you know, automate, I'm stressed out, I need to hit, you know, a gazillion emails sent out that blah blah blah. And so I think at the end of the day it's like have fun, be personal, like what would you say to your your best friend or what would you say to your buddy? Um and think about that in terms of instead of being so you know, cryptic and playing it by script, it's just, you know, have fun with with prospecting and have fun with the sales process and maybe just one last note on that. Like I've noticed, I remember when you know, a couple of years ago when zoom uh and like going on actual video on zoom or whatever, your web conferencing is starting to become more of a thing and everyone at least that I was talking to was really talking about like how buttoned up you need to be for those conversations, quote unquote and I find like when I watch gone calls for, I was watching one of one of our top enterprise reps today just closed a big deal. So I was kind of looking through it and he's wearing t shirts and he's talking casually and like, you know, he's got like his, you know cool setup and but like he knows what he's talking about. But I think when you're thinking what I'm thinking about creativity that I guess the last last point is um you mentioned being yourself and whether that's someone that you know, depending on how you dress or how you talk or whatever it might be. Like you want to come professionally and you want to come, you know, prepared to a customer call and and be your best self. But I don't think you need to force yourself to be a robot or a quote unquote like business person um while taking away some of your authentic voice. So I I did want to just make that point to. Yeah, I think that's exactly true. Like...

...be authentic. I think that authenticity is the perfect word that you use for that. And I think creativity comes with authenticity and sometimes just comes natural when you're trying to be authentic, appreciate it, chris um I appreciate you coming on. Um what's the best place I'm sure for folks to reach is probably linked in. but any sneak peeks for like, what's Mendoza is launching in 2022 or like breaking news or anything that you want to drop before we head off? Yeah, I'd say, you know, in terms of where to find me, like you said, find me on linkedin, email me would love to chat with people so you can email me at chris, caress at sentosa dot com. Um and stay tuned. Follow our blog and follow our sign up for a demo and uh, You know, learn more about sentosa that way. So I don't want to share too much, but you know, fresh off a big funding round and some massive growth, there's gonna be a lot of exciting updates coming in 2022. Awesome man, excited to hear about it. I appreciate you coming on. Yeah, of course. Thanks Alright, everybody. Thanks again for listening to that episode is brought to you by show pad, Go check them out at show pod dot com. Hit me up on linkedin. My name's Tom Alamo and definitely check out my podcast, the millennial sales podcast. We'll see you next monday piece. If you see.

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