The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 8 months ago

Ep 205: The Right Way to Sell Today w/ Becc Holland

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Ep 205: The Right Way to Sell Today w/ Becc Holland

Part of the "Is This A Good Time?" series hosted by Brandon Barton.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the pavilion podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Barton, and you are listening to a very special is this a good time today where we're talking to pavilion members? This is not for fifteen minutes. This is going to be four hundred and twenty five at least. We have a absolute stone cold killer on the show who is an expert at all the things selling. Very special episode today. It's a one hundredth episode of is this a good time? So honored to have interviewed a hundred different people on this pod. It seems like it was just yesterday when it started. So, without further doom, really psyche to have back Holland, who is a CEO and founder flip the script. If you don't know who back is, man you have to figure this out. She is one of the best people to listen to in terms of how people are selling, what stars are doing. She has an incredible amount of contents both on linkedin and on her own website and flip the script, and she is one of the people that I look up to most in terms of her strategies and tactics. So honored to have her on the show today. Today we're talking about something she's super passionate about right now, which is there the five different ways to sell and why one of them is is the right way to do it and the rest of them are not. And yet ninety nine percent of us are doing the four that are is the not right way. So psyched for you to listen to what she has to say. This one sponsor is send Oso, the leading core for gifting platform that inspires human connections for revenue during teams to stand out of strategic points throughout the customer journey. All right, let's do this very special episode one hundred. Is this a good time? All right, everybody, I am so excited to have our guests today Back Collin. She's a CEO and founder of flip the script. You know her from all the things she tells you to do on Linkedin, on everything else. I love your content back, so great to have you one. I'm really excited to be here and thank you for coming. About the content? Yeah, of course. Well, look, we're going to we're breaking the rules today. There are no questions. We are going straight into Beck. Tell us what is on your mind and tell us what we're doing wrong, because I don't. I don't want to spend any time doing anything but learning from you and in this in this pod. So I think that's what our listeners would want to so let me shut up, back tell us what we're doing wrong. Yeah, so what he's not telling you is I refuse, adamantly refused, to do bio questions. For No, no, it's number of different reasons. I hope that I'm not too much of a problem child, but you know, primarily some like no one really at my bile is not that interesting and no one really cares about my back. This may will want be true. William Shafer, you know, I might be being held hostage and in terms of format of today's podcast, but if there is anyone to do that for, it's you back. Let's go, my goodness. Well, I will say that they're are. There are three things that are. I've been doing a lot of different setting on a number of different topics and there are three things that have been just really top of mind for me recently, and the first one is the five different types of selling that people are doing. More of them won't do you any or your buyer any good. which are the four that people are doing right? Most people are doing those for right I would say ninety nine point nine repeating or doing those four. And then you got a point o one, you know, that's doing the fifth, which is the one that will do your buyer the most favors. So that that's the first one. That's top of mine. Love it. Let's go in. I know you said three. Well, let's get let's start there. What are the five? WHO started the five? What are the five? You know, different ways that people are selling. Yeah, so the five different types of selling styles or selling agendas are product selling, feature selling, benefit selling, pain selling and problem centric selling. And so the first...

...four are the ones that a nail at ninety nine point nine percent of sellers. And from my perspective, so product centric selling would be you know your your specifically, you're focusing on your product. So good example would be a patient comes into a doctor's office. Doctor doesn't ask them any questions and just starts talking about the different medications that he has available, talking well of them at goal of getting the patient to drive urgency with the patient for the patient to buy one of those medications. That doesn't seem like a good path totally when you put it like that. It's like your mind implodes, right, but that's essentially what product product centric selling is. That's one the psycho feature centric selling is same situation. You know. Patient comes in, doctor doesn't ask any questions and starts talking about the different features of the medications he or she has available, at goal of, you know, getting the buyer or getting the the patient to want to buy one of the medications. This is what they do at my weed store. They just tell me how, how the different type of high that it's going to get me. This is where I'm going to tell them they're messing this up. They're not asking me my problem. First, I'm gonna, I'm an a sidestep that bag of issues for a second. The third type of selling would be benefit selling, and this is what people are often doing, but they don't know that they're doing. They know that feature, product and benefit is bad, but they don't know that their benefit selling. But benefit selling is patient works into the doctor's office, Doctor US zero questions and starts talking about all the positive side effects of the medications when the person takes them, you know, at goal of trying to get them to buy the medication. So kind of a quick tip. If you. You know, we're going through your buyer persona cards and it says anywhere on that buyer persona cars it saves time or it saves money or it it helps you not waste money or not waste time. That would be avoiding a negative of side effect. But essentially that is benefit selling, is you're talking about the benefits of the medication whenever the person takes it. The fourth is pain centric selling, and I think that this is probably the biggest culprit. And why I think it's the biggest culprit is it's we all know that product feature and benefit selling is bad. We're amid now, we do now, we do so it. That's very well known in the sales industry. I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't show up in feature, doubt. But pain centric selling is patient walks into the office doctor's office, the doctor asks a few questions on pain alone to essentially manipulate the buyer into talking about their pain, to make them drive urgency that they need a medication. So I'm going to flip it to you, Brandon. Why would that be bad? I'm not a doctor. No, but put that as well. But I'm saying, like the patient. The patient shouldn't be, you know, kind of manifesting the way that the way that they were, the pain that they have or what they need. It seems backwards. Not only that, but what's the main question that you have an answered in that case scenario? Huh, what is the problem? What is causing the pain? So essentially, you know, we're asking quite a paint only standalone questions. Is Paralyzing your prospect now might help your sales numbers some, but what will help your sales numbers and your buyer, both as problem centric selling, but pain centric selling, is essentially they come into the office and you're like, Hey, what hurts my arm? How long is it hurt? Two weeks. What's the impact of your arm hurting at home? Oh, I can't pick up my you know my son. Well, what's the emotional impact of that to you, while you know he's feeling a distance emotionally with me? Okay,...

...so have you tried to do do anything about it? Yeah, so I try to put some ointment on it. Did that work? Know, it didn't work, and it's like cool, so here's your here is your pill. And again, pain centric questions are necessary, but stand alone they're the most dangerous to your prospect and specific because you have no idea what is causing the pain. So you have no idea what you're solving for. And even if the buyer does end up buying, you have no prescription process on how they should deploy the tech, the tool, the product, the offering to solve the problem that they need to solve. It's quite crazy to think about. It's like the old treating the symptoms but not the actual disease hundred percent. It's symptom based only. So symptoms are subjective to the patient and there are three types of symptom. We get into and second but there's remitting, there's chronic and there is relapsing. And so if you're treating a pain only, let's say that you did not like, you can't treat a pain. You treat a pain by solving the underlying problem and the underlying calls. So that is the biggest culprit, because sell from my perspective and I grew up in the pain centric selling era, meaning I loved it, I studied it, I gobbled it up and I loved it and I think that that was a piece. I'll due respect of the pie of you do need to ask pain questions, that the goal of a seller should not be to manipulate my prospect into buying more. It should be solving their problem. That is underlying. And yes, that will help you push way more numbers, but also the side effect to your prospect is they get their problems solved. So it wasn't we GOTCHA. Yeah, and in defending defensive pain selling, I can see a very straightforward path from asking the pain questions to playing like like a Doctor House here and understanding that all of those pain questions probably mean you have this problem, because fires are not always articulate about the problem that they have. Right they they may only be seeing it from their perspective, not the organization's perspective. So so I so for having that skill. Sounds still still good. Okay, so go into problem selling. What? What? What should be the path? You so problem centric selling is essentially you're doing one of three things. You are and you'll ask pain questions the beginning. So the example would be the patient walks in, you know, and the doctor starts to ask questions and they start around pain. What's hurting my arm? How long has it been hurting? Two weeks, and then they'll go into a number of questions. It's might seem irrelevant to the patient. You know, do you find that when you're trying to fall asleep at night that it's been a harder than normal? Have you seen decreased appetite? You know, are your eyes a little bit more dry than normal? And what they're hunting after is a number of different criteria that will help them diagnose what is causing the underlying pain so that they know what medication to prescribe because of it. So when it comes to buyers, you have a number of different issues of play. If you don't uncover the product, if you don't uncover the problem at all and you have no idea what to prescribe, there are a lot of cases where people are self prescribing themselves something that is incorrect because they don't know your products. They go to love MD, you know, they think that they can solve this thing with this product. So they inbound and have high buyer intent. They're like, I want to talk about buying this thing and if you don't diagnose the problem at that state you might have you might sell them something that's not going to help with their problem. So that's...

...a second case scenario, but the third case scenario is they don't know if they have a problem. So I know that we talked about three things. The second thing was going to be the difference between a sign and a symptom. The difference between a sign and a symptom medically, is who notices it. So a symptom is subjective and it's always the patient noticing it. As fine is objective and it is noticed by the doctor, and that's where you display your expertise as a seller. There four types of signs that they can be looking for. There's diagnostic, prognostic signs and a nestic and Pathogenomic, and basically what those are is diagnostic, is they're diagnosing a current condition. Moss is what's going to happen to you in the future as a result of this current condition. And a Nestic, I almost always screw that one up, is a like a scar. It's showing it past medical history. And pathogenomic is without a without a doubt, with high certainty, you can link a certain sign to a condition that they have no point being. The majority of this signs, or the most most paralyzing conditions are the ones that have signs, but don't have painful symptoms to the patient. So essentially, most of what like when you come in for a checkup or a physical in the year, it's because they're checking for signs that they know within their expertise means at condition is present, but the person doesn't know because it's not her expertise. So to wrap that into selling, I know that we're almost at fifteen minutes now. Okay, as they keep going, I mean I'm getting a biology thing. I'm thinking dgqu is, webmd. This is great. Frost sellers, they think if you ask them their expertise, you know, they always say they need more product knowledge, product knowledge, product knowledge, product knowledge, and I'm like, what you need is buyer, persona and knowledge. What are they metrict on? What is their lagging indicator, you know, meaning like if I didn't know that strs were KPI on booked meetings and sellers were KPAT and say quoted attainment, how much would they want to talk to me and how much credibility would I have with them? Zero, you know, and how like do I know the problems that they consistently run into? Do I know how to solve for those problems? And mostly kickback that I get from people's I say like how well do you know your buyers? They should, you know, shoot over all these fire persona cards and I'm like like, let's throw this in the trash for a second, just for a second. Can you tell me what your buyers leading, leaning and lagging indicators are? Do you know what they're Metroton Square one, and do you know the problems that they're running into? And they're like, well, that's tough, of course I don't know that. I sell into a CIO and I'm an SDR and I'm like, but that's the only expertise in selling, because if you're if you're expertise is product knowledge, then tell me why we need solutions engineers. Right, exactly that. That's why solutions and engineers exist. But Hey, help me to understand something. What is the differentiate here between the company you're selling to, is let's say, goals at their metric don versus the individual who's buying? Because that's interesting to me, because let's any like increase sales, lower cost right, you know, almost every company wants that and so, but yet a CEIO might not be like test on that specific those specific goals. They may have nothing to do with revenue generation. You need to know your buyer persona first ad buyers that you sell into independent. If you regardless of what product you saw it, you you sell. What is my bier metric ton? So if I sell into a marketer, I need to know that they're typically metric on mql's. If I sell into a sales wraps, I need to know that their measurement quota attainment. If I sell into it, you know a VP of HR, then I...

...know that they're usually a metrict on npscore or churn. If I know that I'm selling into a CS wrap or a cus leader, that I know that they're metric on resell up cell, you know cross cell, renewal and customer churn. Like you need to know what is a point for your buyer? Is Square one from my perspective, so like a goal at or a point in soccer. So there's a question. You bring it. What's a point in in the game of soccer? A point is a goal. Yeah, ball goes into the net. Okay. What's a point in basketball? Is a free throw. It goes right, it goes through a net. Here's different levels of points. So what is the point, quote unquote, for your buyer. What are they metrict on to? What are they hired, fired and promoted to drive? That's square one. And then what are the inputs that they're looking to drive that lagging indicator and what are the problems typically that they're running into you know, as a buyer persona within their day to day that they need to resolve. Then you can back into product knowledge of which one of these problems does my products solve for for this buyer, and how can you see leading indicators of those? So like that is the expertise of selling. You should be an expert in your buyer personas field and contextualizing for them what problem it will solve, your product will solve how it will solve it. And the way that you get to know that within discovery is by uncovering what technical problems are they having meeting problem with the tooler process? What business problems are they having, meaning it's a resultant problem from a technical problem? What business impact or personal impact do they have because of that, and what is the root cause of it? That is the only goal of discovery is to understand, like you said earlier, like all companies, need more sales. Not necessarily true. Not necessarily so. You need to ask questions like how what's your lead count look like? How many sellers do you have? What are your reps like? What are your goals? What are your sale you know, sales quota attainment goals. How close are they to those goals? Now tell me about your prospecting process. How many meetings are you booking for months? Like there are different questions. If you tell someone like hey, is you, are your sellers selling well, they'll all say yes. If you ask someone you know, are you happy in your marriage, they'll say yes. But then if you start asking deeper questions of like when's the last time you got in a fight? How often do you fight? When's the last time you brought it brought them home flowers or did something outside of a celebration or a holiday that was to their benefit, you know, and all of a sudden you know that those are the indicators of is this person happy, and all of a sudden they're going through in their head. You know, maybe there is a problem within my organization that I didn't realize because I didn't focus on it. Kind of thing. So pointing, I think you should be experts and knowing you know, and I hear this here, this myth all the time, and sales like selling as a transferable skill. I'm like, not really, and less like every time that can change companies, you change buy your personas so like it's like saying I'm in Europe and I go from Italy to Spain to France, and then it's like okay, well, there's no, there's no cost of going to, you know, another country, and I'm like, yeah, there is. You have to learn another language every single time. So point being at, you know, going your buyer is it certainly a difficult task. That's why most sellers it's easier to know product knowledge. But that is the only expertise in sales, contextualizing and uncovering. If they have a problem, what's level of aggression of that problem, and then what are the causes of that problem? So then you can prescribe something, quote unquote, medication by way of your product to help them solve their problem. Love it all right, well, looks you know, and here for me, because this this is I think this is interesting when, if you're in a position director level, VP level, even as an individual contributor, and you don't feel like your buy our...

...personas are correct and you don't feel as that you have the intimate knowledge that we're talking about here about, let's say, the buyers metrics and what motivates them and their lead, leading and lagging indicators. How do you go about that? And Not saying internally in the organization, but like what is the breast best process for that? Is that going and interviewing buyers in a non selling situation? Is it reaching out to industry experts, I mean and just asking these quick because I feel like in a selling situation you're you're not getting real answers. Of course not. Yeah, so this, this is all independent of that. You need. This is the prep work that goes into it. Yes, before you know your product, you need to know your buyer. So I mean and knowing who your buyer is. That's pretty simple. Just go into your crm and say, okay, you know when we closed one, who is the first meeting with in terms of level of title, in terms of discipline of title? Then you have a good, hot bad. You know for who, usually from a data perspective, is your buyer. And I'll give a quick to quick tip. Most organizations haven't done that and so they think they're buyers someone different than who it actually is. So that step one is knowing who you want to sell into, because it drives most conversion. For your word, you know from this work perspective. But to your point, what you can do to understand it is it's like make it happen. I would go to if I had someone internally who had that role, I would go to them first, because they not only have the buyer person expertise, but they have the expertise if your product. So if I'm, you know, internal at Oracle and I'm selling to a product leader, I would go internally to the product leader at Oracle because they have a vested interest. And what are you gold on? What are your leading indicators? You know, what are the problems that you currently run into? So I do that. Step one. I would go to my customers who bought, ask them why they bought. Ask some with their metric don I mean, heck, you can go to forums, you can go to networking events. I at one point. I'll close it this. I at one point I was selling into a CIO. It was a new buyer for me and so I literally online. You can go to my linkedin profile. I made a post and I said Hey, I need to get to know a CIO. Anyone want to help me? The CIO from Dell commented and said I'll do I jumped on a twohour call with the CIO from Dell. Didn't know the guy at all and he gave a few hours of knowledge of his buyer person. Point being, our buyers want to help you. They want to you. It's just about that. It's about the commitment of saying like, I'm not going to try and, quote unquote, be and it's not even a product expert, because sellers will tell you they don't know all the products and features their product. So it's really we believe it's an aggression expert or a manipulation expert. From a technique perspective, it's like take that aggression, even if you want to just blow out your quota. This is the way to do it. It's not only the right thing to do, but it will help you. Your numbers explode. You go do what you gotta do. Make A linkedin post, go to a networking event, find five people I'd KPI myself with. Over the next quarter I'm going to find three CIOS that are going to sit down with me. Will trade them coffee, I'll trade them money. You know what APP don't try to sell to them and just start asking them aggressive questions. Do your research, go online, Google's your friend, you know, and get to know your buyer, or at least make them the micro commitment. Today, like I'm going to go to Google and I'm going to figure out what their metric don the sellers. Sellers are metric on quota attainment. So now I know at least what a point is for them, so I can have that my mind when I'm thinking about having a conversation with them. Lover, this is this is gold. I hope every I hope everyone understands this is now a matter that we are now in a masterclass. I hated today. I love it. It's just so it's refreshing to hear this stuff. I think. I think it's great. It's the begin you know, it's a first quarter here, is a beginning of the year. It's good to still think about this. You know how we're going to make the year happen. Anything that before we go anything to plug. I know you got so much going on. Yeah, I...

...do have some exciting stuff going on. So I have for anyone who isn't completely tired out and turn it tuned me out and turned off by the last rant that I went on my website. I do free content, you know, free content in terms of like extensive decks, all kinds of sessions, everything from cold calling to cold emailing to objection handling. But I've just launched a number of things, but a written as sets hub with a bunch of one cheaters, you know, seven steps to a great cold call, etc. And I just launched season three on the website, which is all tactical sessions when it comes to selling, when it comes to prospecting. So you know, if you want to know a little bit more about prospecting, or at least my opinion on it, then go to flip the SCRIPTCO and click free sales training hub and there's a whole bunch of sessions and they're all tactical for SDRs, DRS and s specifically when it comes to prospecting and selling. If you are not following back and and learning from where you are, you're not doing it right. That's my advice to everyone back. So great to have you on like such a joy we're getting you back here in six or six, six or eight months, nine months, and we're going to hear the update on what's bothering you then. I would love it. Thanks for letting me go on the biology ran I was my mind was I love but it's a really good framework. When I started doing that, it was just my mind was blown. So I appreciate the appreciate the shop. All right, awesome back. Thanks so much. All right, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. If you love the show, you must have loved today's show. Rate and review. Tell you be the day I got back to come on, go and rate, give me five stars somewhere. Send it to a friend, smash subscribe button. Come on. This episode was brought to you by some Dosa. They are redefining the way businesses inspire human connections by offering an intelligent gifting experience with the global fulfillment infrastructure, highly curated premium vendors, deep analytics and personalization at scale. I had so much fun today. I really hope you did. Now get out and start using this stuff and crush your numbers.

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