The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 4 months ago

Ep 235: The Right Way to Sell Today w/ Becc Holland (Throwback)

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Ep 235: The Right Way to Sell Today w/ Becc Holland

Part of the "Is This A Good Time?" series hosted by Brandon Barton.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the pavilion podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Martin. You're listening to is this a good time? The show where I put pavilion Amazon the hat seat for fifteen minutes we hear their incredible stories. This Thursday we're doing something special. It's a holiday week. A thought to do a little throwback to an episode that I love that we put out in March. Our guests was Beck collind she's a CEO and founder. Flipped the script and and man, if you have not listened to beck or seen her stuff, you you got to Um and on this episode she talks about all the right ways to sell. She gets into a little psychology, a little bit of analogies about how we sell and what we're doing right and what we're doing wrong. So I hope you enjoy it. Um. Today's episode is brought to you by contract book. Raise your hand if you love managing contracts. We didn't think so. Contract with created an all in one automated contract platform with data at the heart of everything to help organizations automate mundane tasks that waste way valuable time, energy and resources. Visit Contract Book Dot Com and access to contract books, complete set of automation tools for free. All right, let's do this throwback episode. Is this a good time? All right, everybody, I am so excited to have our guests today, Beck Holland. She's a CEO and founder of flip the script. You know her from all the things she tells you, uh, to do on Linkedin, on everything else. Um, I love your content back, so great to have you one. I'm really excited to be here and thank you for a comment about the content. UH, yeah, of course. Well, look, Um, we're gonna we're breaking the rules today. There are no questions. We are going straight into that. Tell us what is on your mind and tell us what we're doing wrong, because I don't I don't want to spend any time doing anything but learning from you in this in this pod. So, Um, I think that's what our our listeners would want to so let me shut up, back tell us what we're doing wrong. Yeah, so what? What he's not telling you is I refuse, adamantly refused, to do bio questions for a number of different reasons. I hope that I'm not too much of a problem child, but you know, primarily because I'm like no one really, my bio is not that interesting and no one really cares about my back true, William Shatner, you know, I might be being held hostage and in terms of format of today's podcast, but if there's anyone to do that for, it's you, Beck. Let's go, my goodness. Well, I will say that there are there are three things that are I've been doing a lot of different setting on a number of different topics and there are three things that have been just really top of mind for me recently. And the first one, Um, is the five different types of selling. The people are doing more of them won't do you any or your buyer any good. Uh. which are the four that people are doing? Right? What most people are doing? Those four right, right, I would say ninety nine point nine repeating or doing those four, and then you've got a point o one, you know, that's doing the fifth, which is the one that will do your buyer the most favors. So that that's the first one that's top of mind. Love it. Let's go in. I know you said three. Well, let's go. Let's start there. What are the five? Let's start with the five. What are the five? You know, different ways that people are selling yeah, so the five different types of selling, selling styles or selling agendas are products selling, feature selling, benefits selling, pain selling and problem centric selling. And so the first four are the ones that it nail out ninety nine point nine percent of sellers from my perspective. So product centric selling would be, you know, your your specifically, uh, you're focusing on your product. So good example would be a patient comes into a doctor's office. Doctor doesn't ask them any...

...questions and just starts talking about the different medications that he has available, uh, talking well of them, at goal of getting the patient to drive urgency with the patient for the patient to buy one of those medications. That doesn't seem like a good path totally. When you put it like that, it's like your mind implodes right, but that's essentially what product product centric selling is. So that's one. Uh. The second feature centric selling is same situation. You know, patient comes in, doctor doesn't ask any questions UH and starts talking about the different features of the medications uh he or she has available, at goal of Um, you know, getting the buyer or getting the patient to uh want to buy one of the medications. This is what they do at my weed store. They just tell me how, how the different type of high that it's going to get me. This is where I'm going to tell them they're messing this up. They're not asking me my problem. First, I'M gonna I'm gonna Sidestep that bag of issues. Second, the third type of selling would be benefits selling, and this is what people are often doing, but they don't know that they're doing. They know that feature product and benefit is bad, but they don't know that their benefits selling. But benefits selling is patient walks into the doctor's office, Doctor asked zero questions and starts talking about all the positive side effects of the medications when the person takes them. Um, you know, at goal of trying to get them to buy the medication. So kind of a quick tip. If you, you know, are going through your buio persona cards and it says anywhere on that buio persona cars, it saves time or it saves money or it it helps you, uh, not waste money or not waste time. Um, that would be avoiding a negative side effect. But essentially that is benefits selling, as you're talking about the benefits of the medication whenever the person takes it. Right. The fourth is pain centric selling, and I think that this is probably the biggest culprit. And I think and why I think it's the biggest culprit, is it's uh, we all know that product feature and benefits selling is bad. Now, we do now, we do so. That's very well known in the sales industry. I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't show up and feature. But pain centric selling is patient walks into the office, uh, Doctor's office. The doctor asked a few questions on pain alone to essentially manipulate the buyer into talking about their pain, to make them drive urgency that they need a medication. So I'M gonna flip it to you, Brandon. Why would that be bad? I'm not a doctor you. No, no, yeah, no, but that's what I'm saying. Like the patient. The patient shouldn't be, you know, kind of manifesting the way that, the way that they were, the pain that they have or what they needs. Not only that, but what's the main question that you haven't answered in that case scenario? What is the problem? What is causing the pain? So essentially, you know, we're asking quite a pain only stand alone questions. Is Paralyzing interesting your prospect. Now that might help your sales numbers some, but what will help your sales numbers and your buyer both this problem centric selling. But Pain centric selling is essentially they come into the office and you're like, Hey, what hurts my arm? How long does it hurt? UH, two weeks. What's the impact of your your arm hurting at home? Oh, I can't pick up my, you know, my son while what's the emotional impact of that to you? Well, uh,...

...you know, he's feeling a distance emotionally with me. Okay, so have you tried to do do anything about it? Uh Yeah, so I try to put some ointment on it. Did that work? No, it didn't work, and it's like cool, so here's your here is your pill, here is your Pi. And again, pain centric questions are necessary, but stand alone they're the most dangerous to your prospect in specific because you have no idea what is causing the pain. So you have no idea what you're solving for. And even if the buyer does end up buying, you have no prescription process on how they should deploy the tech, the tool, the product, the offering to solve the problem that they need to solve. So the last to think about. It's like the the old treating the symptoms but not the you know, not not the actual disease hundred percent. It's symptom based only. So symptoms are subjective to the patient and they are there are three types of symptoms. We get into it in second but there's remitting, there's chronic and there is relapsing. And so if you're treating a pain only, let's say that you did not like, you can't treat a pain. You treat a pain by solving the underlying problem and the underlying plots. So that is the biggest culprit, because sell from my perspective and I I grew up in the pain centric selling era, meaning I loved it, I studied it, I gobbled it up and I loved it, and I think that that was a piece, all due respect, of the Pie. Of you do need to ask pain questions that the goal of a seller should not be to manipulate my prospect into buying more. It should be solving their P that is underlying and yes, that will help you push way more numbers, but also the the side effect to your prospect is they get their problems solved. So it wasn't in defense, in defensive pain selling. I can see a very straightforward path from asking the pain questions to playing like like a Doctor House here and understanding that all of those pain questions probably mean you have this problem, because buyers are not always articulate about the problem that they have right they may only be seeing it from their perspective, not the organization's perspective. So Um, so I i. So having that skill sounds still still good. Okay. So go into problem selling. What what? What should be the path here? So problem centric selling is essentially you're doing one of three things. You are and you'll ask pain questions the beginning. So the example would be the patient walks in, you know, and the doctor starts to ask questions and they start around pain. What's hurting my arm? How long has it been hurting? Two weeks, and then they'll go into a number of questions that might seem um irrelevant to the patient. You know, do you find that when you're trying to fall asleep at night that it's been harder than normal? Have you seen decreased appetite? You know, are your eyes a little bit more dry than normal? And what they're hunting after is a number of different criteria that will help them diagnose what is causing the underlying pain so that they know what medication to prescribe because of it. So when it comes to buyers, you have a number of different issues of play. If you don't uncover the problem, if you don't uncover the problem at all, then you have no idea what to prescribe. There are a lot of cases where people are self prescribing themselves, uh, something that is incorrect because they don't know...

...your products. They go to lob M D, You know, they they think that they can solve this thing with this product. So they inbound and have high buyer intent. They're like, I want to talk about buying this thing and if you don't diagnose the problem at that state you might have, you might sell them something that's not going to help with their problem. So that's the second case scenario. But the third case scenario is they don't know if they have a problem. So I know that we talked about three things. The second thing was going to be the difference between a sign and a symptom. The difference between a sign and a symptom medically, is who notices it. So a symptom is subjective and it's always the patient noticing it. That's sign is objective and it is noticed by the doctor, and that's where you display your expertise as a seller. There are four types of signs that they can be looking for. There's diagnostic, prognostic signs and, uh, monastic and Pathogenomic, and basically what those are is um diagnostic is they're diagnosing a current condition. HMOSIS is what's going to happen to you in the future as a result of this current condition, and a monastic, I almost always screw that one up, is a like a scar. It's showing it past medical history. And pathogenomic is without without a doubt, with high certainty, you can link a certain sign to a condition that they have. The point being the majority of the signs or the most most paralyzing conditions are the ones that have signs but don't have painful symptoms to the patient. So essentially, most of what like when you come in for a checkup or a physical in the year, it's because they're checking for signs. It they know within their expertise means a condition is present, but the person doesn't know because it's not their expertise. So to wrap that into selling, I know that we're almost at fifteen minutes now. Who Cares, they keep going. I mean, I'm getting a biology thing and I think g two is web MD. This is great. Those sellers, they think if you ask them their expertise, you know, they always say they need more product knowledge, product knowledge, product knowledge, product knowledge, and I'm like, what you need is buyer persona and knowledge. What are they metrics on? What is their lagging indicator, you know, meaning like if I didn't know that SDRs were KPI on booked meetings and sellers were KPI and quota attainment, how much would they want to talk to me and how much credibility would I have with them? Zero, you know, and how like do I know the problems that they consistently run into? Do I know how to solve for those problems? And mostly kick back I get from people, as I say, like how well do you know your buyers? They, you know, shoot over all these buyer persona cards and I'm like like, let's say this in the trash for a second, just for a second, can you tell me what your buyers leading, leaning and lagging indicators are? Do you know what they're Metrocton square one and do you know the problems that they're running into and they're like, well, that's tough, of course I don't know that. I sell them to a C I O and I'm an SDR and I'm like, but that's the only expertise in selling, because if you're if your expertise is product knowledge, then tell me why we need solutions engineers. Right, exactly that. That's why solutions and engineers exist. But Hey, help, help me to understand something. Um, what is the like differentiate here between the company you're selling to, Um, let's say goals that they're metrics on, versus the individual WHO's buying? Because that's interesting to me, because, let's I mean like increased sales, lower cost right. Um, you know almost every company wants that, Um, and and so. But but yet CEO might not be...

...like test on that specific those specific goals. They may have nothing to do with revenue generation. You need to know your buyer persona first, the buyers that you sell into independent of you, regardless of what products you saw, you you sell. What is my biometrics on? So if I sell into a market or I need to know that they're typically metrics on M quels. If I sell into a sales rep, sales reps, I need to know that their measurement quota attainment. If I sell into, you know, a VP of HR, then I know that they're usually a metrics on NPS score or churn. If I know that I'm selling into a CS REP or a CS leader, then I know that they're metrics on re sell, up sell, you know, cross sell, renewal and customer churn. Like you need to know what is a point for your for your buyer, is square one from my perspective, so like a goal or a point in soccer. So there's a question you brand it. What's a point in the game of soccer? I mean a point is a goal? Yeah, the ball goes into the net. Okay. What's a point in basketball? It's a free throw, it goes right, it goes through a net. Here's different levels of points. So what is the point, quote unquote, for your buyer? What are they metrics on to what are they hired, fired and promoted to drive? That's square one. And then what are the inputs that they're looking to drive that lagging indicator and what are the problems typically that they're running into? You know, as a buyer, persona within their day to day that they need to resolve. Then you came back into product knowledge of how what, which one of these problems does my products solve for for this buyer, and how can you see leading indicators of those? So like that is the expertise of selling. You should be an expert in your buyer personas field and contextualizing for them what problem it will solve, your product will solve how it will solve it. And the way that you get to know that within discovery is by uncovering what technical problems are they having, meaning problem with the tool or process? What business problems are they having, meaning it's a resulting problem from a technical problem? What business impact or personal impact do they have because of that, and what is the root cause of it? That is the only goal of discovery, is to understand. Like you said earlier, like all companies need more sales. Not necessarily true, not necessarily so. You need to ask questions like how what's your lead count look like? How many sellers do you have? What are your reps like? What are your goals? What are your sales? You know sales quota attainment goals. How close are they to those goals? Now tell me about your prospecting process. How many meetings are you booking per month? Like there are different questions. If you tell someone like hey, is your are your sellers selling well, they'll all say yes. If you ask someone you know, are you happy in your marriage, they'll say yes. But then if you start asking deeper questions of like when's the last time you got in a fight? How often do you fight? When's the last time you brought it brought them home flowers or did something outside of a celebration or a holiday that was to their benefit, you know, and all of a sudden you know that those are the indicators of is this person happy? And all of a sudden they're going through in their head. You know, you know, maybe there is a problem within my organization that I didn't realize because I didn't focus on it. Kind of thing. So the point I think you should be experts and knowing. You know, and I hear this here, this myth all the time, and sales, like selling is a transferable skill. I'm like not really, unless, like every time that you change companies, you change buyer personas. So, like it's like saying I'm in Europe and I go from Italy to Spain to France, and then it's like okay, well, there's no there's no cost of going to, you know, another country, and I'm like, yeah, there is. You have to learn another language every single mind.

So point being, you know, knowing your buyer is. It's certainly a difficult task. That's why most sellers it's easier to know product knowledge, but that is the only expertise in sales, contextualizing and uncovering. If they have a problem, what's the level of aggression of that problem, and then what are the causes of that problem? So then you can prescribe something, quote unquote, medication by way of your product to help them solve their problem. I love it, all right, well, looks, you know, and here for me, because this, this is I think this is interesting when, if you're in a position director level, VP level, even as an individual contributor, and you don't feel like your buyer personas are correct and you you don't feel as Um that you have the intimate knowledge that we're talking about here, about, let's say, the buyers metrics and what motivates them and they're leading, leading and lagging indicators. How do you go about that? And Not saying internally in the organization, but like what is the best process for that? Is that going and interviewing buyers in a non selling situation? Ation is it reaching out to industry experts? I mean and just asking this question, because I feel like in a selling situation you're not you're not getting real answers. Of course not. Yeah, but this, this is all independent of that. You need. This is the prep work that goes into it. Yes, yes, before you know your product, you need to know your buyer. So I mean knowing who your buyer is. That's pretty simple. Just go into your crm and say, okay, you know when we closed one, who was the first meeting with in terms of level of title and terms of discipline of title? Then you have a good, hot bad. You know for who, usually from a data perspective, is your buyer. And I'll give a quick, quick tip. Most organizations haven't done that and so they think they're buyer is someone different than who it actually is. So that step one is knowing who you want to sell into, because it drives most conversion for your work perspective. But to your point, what you can do to understand it is it's like make it happen. I would go to if I had someone internally who had that role, I would go to them first because they not only have the buyer person expertise, but they have the expertise of your product. So if I'm, you know, internal at Oracle and I'm selling to a product leader, I would go internally to the product leader at Oracle because they have a vested interest. And what are you gold on? What are you're leading indicators? You know, what are the problems that you currently run into? So I do that step one. I would go to my customers who bought. Asked them why they bought, asked them with their metrics on. I mean, heck, you can go to forums, you can go to networking events. I at one point, I'll close with this. At one point I was selling into a C I oh. It was a new buyer for me and so I literally online. You can go to my linkedin profile. I made a post and I said, Hey, I need to get to know C I oh. Anyone want to help me? The C I o from Dell commented and said I jumped on a two hour call with the C I o from Dell. Didn't know the guy at all. And he gave to hours of knowledge of his buyer. Personal Point being our buyers want to help you. They want to help you. It's just about that. It's about the commitment of saying like, I'm not going to try and, quote unquote, be and it's not even a product expert, because sellers will tell you they don't know all the products and features their product. So it's really we believe it's an aggression expert or a manipulation expert. From a technique perspective, it's like take that aggression, even if you want to just blow out your quota. This is the way to do it. It's not only the right thing to do, but it will help you. Your numbers explode. Go do what you gotta do. Make a linked imposts, go to a networking event, buying five people. I had KPI myself with. Over the next quarter, I'm going to find three C I o s that are going to sit down with me. I'll trade them coffee, I'll trade the money, you know whatever. Don't try to sell to them and just start asking them aggressive questions. Do your research, go online, Google's your friend. You know, and get to know...

...your buyer, or at least make them the micro commitment. Today, like I'm gonna go to Google and I'm going to figure out what they're. Metrics on sellers. Sellers are metrics on quota attainment. So now I know at least what a point is for them, so I can have that in my mind when I'm thinking about having a conversation with them. Hated. This is this is gold. I hope every I hope everyone understands this is now a matter. We are now in a masterclass. I heed it today, I love it, it's it's it's just so it's refreshing to hear this stuff. I think. I think it's it's great. It's it's the beginning. It's the first quarter here, at the beginning of the year. It's good to still think about this. You know how we're going to make the year happen? Anything before we go anything to plug. I know you've got so much going on. I do have some exciting stuff going on. So for anyone who isn't completely tired out and turn tune me out and turned off by the last rant that I went on my website. I do free content, you know, free content in terms of like extensive decks, all kinds of sessions, everything from cold calling to cold emailing to objection handling. But, Um, I've just launched a number of things, but a written assets hub with a bunch of one cheaters, you know, seven steps to a great cold call, etcetera. Uh, and I just launched season three on the website, which is all tactical sessions when it comes to selling, when it comes to prospecting. So you know, if you want to know a little bit more about prospecting, or at least my opinion on it, Um, then you can go to flip the script dot co and click free sales training hub and there's a whole bunch of sessions and they're all tactical for SDRs, bdrs and eight S, specifically when it comes to prospecting and selling. If you are not following back and and learning from here you are, you're not doing it right. That's my advice to everyone back. So great to have you on like such a joy. I'm gonna get you back here in six or six or eight months, nine months, and we're gonna hear the update on what's bothering you. I would love it. Thanks for letting me go on. The biology ran my mind. Love it's a really good framework. I love it, man, it was just my mind was blown. So I appreciate the appreciate the shop. All right, awesome back. Thanks so much. All right, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. If you love the show, rate and review apple podcast, spotify APP, send it to friends. Smash to subscribe button. This episode was brought to you by contract book. Contract Books Digital Contract Management Platform a less scaling businesses to automate and manage the entire contract life cycle in one floak. Get started for free a contact contract books DOT com. I hope it's fun. I did. Now get out and crush those numbers.

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