The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 38: The Future of Sales Engagement and Angel Investing feat Max Altschuler

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Future of Sales Engagement and Angel Investing feat Max Altschuler

...away, right everybody. Welcome to another episode of the revenue Collective podcast. This is your host Tom Alamo, new host, co host for the show, so really excited to be joining here. And we've got a great episode for today. Had to bring out the big guns for the first episode that I'm bringing and I've got Max Altshuler. If you're in SAS, if you're in sales marketing, go to market strategy. You almost definitely know whom axes or know him personally if you don't. He is the vice president of sales engagement at Outreach. He is the founder and CEO of Sales Hacker, which is now owned by outreach, and he is recently then named the founder and general partner at the G t M Fund Max. There's no other way to put it. He's a legend. He's just a legend in the B two b SAS marketing and sales world from creating sales hacker. You know, having early early careers at at you to me at LegalZoom founding Sales hacker, and he's really got one of the best networks out there in B two B and in SAS, and we talked about a lot of things. We talk about his new role and outreach as the VP of sales engagement. So we talk about what that means and where the world's heading. In terms of sales engagement, we talk about his new founding of the go to market fund and what he's doing there a little bit about his angel investing and investments, how he spends his time recommendations around sales tech, things like that. So it's a great conversation, really. Think you're going to get a lot of value. I feel smarter every time I talk to Max. I think you're gonna enjoy that before we get into the episode. I wanna tell you very quickly about our sponsor. So this month sponsor for the podcast is six cents. Success to the number one account engagement platform helps you identify accounts that are in market for your solution. Prioritize your efforts, engage buyers the right way with highly relevant messaging and measure what actually matters with the six cents platform, you're able to get into more deals, improve when rates increase overall pipeline and optimize budget. Spend toe. Learn more. You can visit six the number sixth sense dot com slash revenue collected. If you do find this episode valuable. You could definitely We want you to support our sponsors. We love. If you left us a review on apple podcasts as well revenue collected podcasts. Without further ado, let me get into this conversation with Max Altshuler. All right, Max Alschuler. Welcome to the podcast brother had been doing doing all right. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Absolutely. So are you in Austin nowadays? I am just getting settled here. Yeah, you You seem to kind of have the co vid lifestyle. I feel like years before Kobe did, I felt like I always saw that you were in a different city. You know, you're in, whether with Seattle or New York or Austin or wherever you were in the world. You always seem to be living life to the edge. So I didn't know if you were kind of settling in tow. Austin got a house there, and like like, really trying to lock in there for the long term. Or if this is just another stop along the way, this is as settled as it gets. All right, We We bought a bought a house, furnishing it, doing it right. You know, we went up to Seattle. We went up there because of the acquisition. So, you know, me and my wife both want Arizona State, where some people they want to get back to the sun. 2 to 2 years in Seattle. Even before Kobe hit, we had come up a plant with a plan where I would move down to Austin and just I was on living on a plane anyway. So it was a difference if I spent the week a month that I was normally in Seattle, you know, on a plane to Seattle on. I'm fine with that. I'm a road warrior, so it's all good, but yeah, Austin is is home for the foreseeable future indefinitely. I love...

...it. Is outreach planning to be remote moving forward after cove it or is that still TBD? I don't know. I think, uh, I think we'll probably back in the office and, uh, in a large capacity. And imagine just getting a lot of people, like feed off the energy Me included. I love that. I mean, like, the remote, the remote things. Nice as long as, um, as long as you get on a plane once in a while, you know, see your people. I missed that a lot Did I was feeling the same way. I feel like it's hard to get this to bring the same energy to a team you know, through zoom and through slack like that you would in a sales pitch or in a room. Or, you know, the weekly sales meeting or wherever it is. It's, I feel like I'm getting better at it, but it's it's not natural, at least for someone like me. Thio be stuck in a room in one place for so long and not seeing interact with people. Yeah, we miss it. I mean, remember going toe outreach offices right when the Because the acquisition went through and, uh, no manage. The type of guy walks around the office fist bumps. Everybody switches desks, you know, once a month to make sure he's in different areas of the office. So it's healing, hearing and seeing, you know what's going on with the Bible, like what? The energy is like all the different teams and you know, the salesforce buzzing and you just get that the serendipity, serendipitous moments, you know, we get to cross paths with someone who have a drink with someone or have lunch with someone or whatever it is and catch up, you know, with them on what they're working on. And then who knows what happens from there? So I missed that. I missed the energy, Mr People, and, well, I'm excited to get back to that, but, you know, remote school, too. It's got its perks. Yeah, totally, man. Why? I wanna I wanna kick off the podcast just by showing some gratitude. I mean, you are one of the goats of just the whole B two B sales world. You've had a huge impact and huge impact on me. Personally, I was telling Scott Barker this a couple weeks ago that you and him and a few others have really kind of shaped the type of career that I wanna have, you know, and really trying to focus on the sales community, right? That's one of the reasons I went to Gong. That's one of the reasons why getting more involved in revenue collective in my own podcast, etcetera. So you've really changed. I feel like a lot of the way that business gets done and the way that people approach sales in the B two b world, and it really changed that landscape. So, first and foremost, I appreciate all of the work and effort and creativity that you bring to the field. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's nice of you to say. I'm just I'm just having fun with it. Yeah, So you say on LinkedIn in your headline that, you know, you spend almost 100% of your working hours helping people make money and build exceptional careers? Can you elaborate on that a little bit And and some of the different buckets that you're playing and to help people do that. All right. Yeah, definitely. Um I think when you get to the root of what I dio, I help people sell. I help help people navigate their career path in sales. I help people understand what companies to go work for and had to choose. A company had to choose a boss, had a work, you know, with amazing CEO or visionary. If if that's what you want out of life. I wrote two books on on the topic packing sales and sales engagement again that help people sell more. But another book called career hacking to focus on the career side and and really, you know, people are trying toe find their way. That might be lost right now when we're trying to understand, like, what do I do next? And you know, it's, ah, a lot of people, I think get him where they can and then trying to figure out after the fact, like, What should I do now? And I think that's ah, that's a good way of doing it. I think if you get in as an SDR now, you're in the room Now you're in the office there in the company. Now you're in tech and it exposes you to the customer, exposes you to other areas of...

...the company. You know when when we go back in the office, you know, one of my biggest piece of advice is, you know, if you're asked you are you got the building, you don't know if you wanna be in a e or what you want your path to be and and continuing sales or not, start getting lunch with other people in the business and asking them what their day to day looks like. And I've seen a lot of SDR is going to be product marketers. Product managers demand Gen customer success You name. It doesn't always have to be, you know, the way you So yeah, I just really find a lot of joy and helping people with their careers and helping and and really the end game helping people make money so that they could do whatever it is they want to do in their lives that makes them happy or hold them back because I think, you know, money, money buys freedom in a lot of ways, and that's what it's always been important to me is having the freedom to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Everything else you know kind of stems off that. So you know, if I could help people make money so they can pay off their parents medical bills, then fantastic you by the happiness that that provides essentially, uh, or put your kids through college or take your kids to Disneyland or fire kids. The new pair of Jordans or whatever it is it's gonna, you know, make them really happy. That's hopefully what I help people do on a daily basis. And how often are people, I imagine just, you know, bombarding you with LinkedIn messages, asking for help, asking for advice, asking for introductions like you. And maybe, you know, someone like Scott Lease jumps to mind where I feel like you're ultra accessible. And I'm curious if if that's how you spend a lot of your time just really trying to be a giver because, you know, one it probably feels good to help people into if you're seeing, is that that's really how you have, you know, probably helped to build out such a great network. But do you find yourself spend a lot of time doing some of those tasks that you know, don't really in the short run, benefit you at all, just answering questions and helping introduce people and things like that? I dio and it's, I would say, a sacrifice. And sometimes I question why I want to do it. But you know, I think it's helpful, and I think you know, I'm I'm gonna keep doing it. I want to keep doing it. I was, uh, I was online this weekend. I probably spent a half hour. Now we're going through lengthen messages, and I don't think a lot of people do that. I think they think they're time is better spent on other things, and then they might be right. But, you know, if I get in opportunity toe to help some folks, I think that's really fulfilling for me. And, uh, you know, if I'm doing the things that fulfill me, I take a lot of pride and passion in that. Then, uh, I think that's what makes me, you know, truly content on a day to day, week to week basis. So I don't mind taking my time out. My schedule do those things, and it's getting harder and harder every year. I've got a 16 month old, and, uh, you know, we're trying to have more kids in a quick succession here, so I get less and less free time as it goes. But I'll still try and prioritize those things as much as I can, especially if people are reaching out and being, um, you know, original. And, you know, it's not just like a mess pitch. Pick your brain type thing. Yeah, So I wanna I wanna talk about what you're doing in the new role to say Congrats on, you know, being maybe the first ever VP of sales engagement. I haven't seen one before, so I I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear your you know, what that path has been like. I mean, obviously what outreach is doing is amazing. And really, I would say creating the category leading the category of sales engagement eso I'd love to hear. What does that new role mean? You know, like, how what do you do on a day to day To help, you know,...

...advise other companies on their sales engagement and maybe even advise outreach on how to use the tool better on more efficiently as well. Yeah, definitely. I mean, when you create a company in a category and you're the first company in that category past 100 r r. And you know, you're the number one on ah, lot of the accolades and and lists that come out there you gotta gotta lead by example. We've got more and more companies that air coming to us of our customers saying, Hey, you know, we love outreach. We're seeing the power. But you know, we have so many questions on how you guys are doing it at your company. And so we've got our own operational excellence that we want to make sure you know, not only were, um, drinking our own champagne and and getting the most you set of our own product under our own roof, but then sharing those best practices with our customers and with customers of any sales and giving a platform, I mean, I think they should be doing the most amazing things they can out of the sails engaging platform. And if you're on one that doesn't allow you to do it, then you know, you probably kind of know what to do next. And if you are, then fantastic, you get value out of it. But, you know, we're really starting to go through Ah, period here, where you've seen Salesforce and Microsoft, you know, trying to come out with their own versions. Um, you're seeing lots of folks in the space raised money, and and, uh, you're seeing a lot more of broader ecosystem develop in terms of capabilities of, you know, the software that's being built, so there needs to just be a lot more education around. How to get the most out of it. Uh, you know who better than me to do that? I wrote a book, my first book, Hacking Sales in 2015 on all things sales technology. And we showcased a lot of the up and coming sales technology at the time and then the second book on sales with sales Engagement and wrote that all about everything that we've done in our own kind of sales engagement. Best practices to date. As we come out with more product lines and the space, the space gets bigger and the the chasm gets crossed, so to speak, you need a lot more education. So it's a little bit of a hybrid role between sales and marketing, which is which is where I would like to be, like the creative side. And then, you know, the mass market side of marketing and then the, you know, ability to work with customers in a white glove way and getting the weeds with them and really get to know them. So puts me in a great sweet spot, and then being the I don't know, I'm probably the the second face of our company. Next to Manny, but also have you know, 50,000 followers on lengthen and quite a following through my you know, sales hacker. Um, putting me in the evangelist position is is also ah, probably a smart place to be is Well, yeah, I got to say that that's gotta be I don't know if that was part of the strategy, you know, in the early days of sale Sacher, but has to be really one of the main value points of you. Is the network the following, the expertise, the connections, everything like that I'd love to learn more about, like so I've used outreach. I love outreach. As a salesperson myself, I'd love to hear What is it that either you guys are using the product for Or that you would suggest that some of the, um or, uh, you know, forward looking customers air using right, Because a lot of people might think of it is just like this tool that we can build out, you know, sequences for and you know, we can use it for prospecting for our str team, and maybe that's about it. But like, what? What arm or creative ways? Forward looking way strategic ways that your best customers or you guys are using it. Oh, man, I mean our A es. Use it to prospect, get multi threaded and do account pay sales are customer success. Team uses it, combined with a litany of different data sources to understand health scores on our customers. And you know,...

...when we need to be reaching out how we need to be reaching out and make sure we're in touch and providing that white glove experience from a supporting success side. Our marketing team, a LeVar demand Gen and Legion really is set up with outreach as the command center or the the way that, you know, we trigger all of our our follow ups off of. So, for example, if we do a virtual event, we're a nonaligned conference. All the follow ups that happened, how follow up from Reps and they followed immediately and all that happens through outreach. So, you know, we're using it in in you know, every area of our business that we can, and we're still uncovering ways toe use it even mawr, whether it be follow up sequences that trigger off of, you know that what the ease air doing or whether it be helping us forecast or understand how to create our account plans. Men, there's just so much. It's funny that you ask that because I'm just working through a bunch of content right now on this on this very topic. And I'm like, Oh, man, what do I which one do a surface? I don't want to give you too much information because we're coming out with some cool stuff soon. That's great. That's great. And you mentioned that, you know, Salesforce and Microsoft even are starting to get into the space and come up with their own tools. Like, Do you see that as more of a market validation is that, you know, concerning thio the space that a giant can come in and try to replicate it and use it as you know, and add on or a free add on to, you know, the CRM product or something like that. How do you view, you know, some of those giants get into the space? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely market validation, you know, it's not necessarily something you could just throw a bunch of engineers at. It's not something that you know you could just building overlay on toe, you know, CRM. And then it's done. We've got some of the best engineers in the world, you know, being Seattle based, we get the perks of being a bit a higher. The top 0.1% engineers from Microsoft and Amazon and companies like that on top of that, raised 289 million in funding. You know, when we live and breathe this as our business versus some of these bigger companies that, like they don't even think they know what the customer just saying, thinking they're doing and then they're trying toe, you know, replicate what we've done fairly blindly. I don't think that works. We've seen time and time again. Big companies go into spaces that are, you know, platforms and not have had the success, Um, that many thought they might have just had right off the bat. And I think we built a fairly robust producto defense against that. And it's not even just the product, but it's the industry knowledge the you know, supporting success teams. It's, you know, our sales reps. It's it's everybody in our business who lives and breathes sales, engagement versus, you know, some of the bigger companies that just they've got a lot going on. I got another gold and and teams and resource is and things like that that get distributed. So it's not something that you know, we're super worried about it. And I think it's great market validation for sure. Do you ever miss getting into the trenches more? And I don't know, maybe in your role. Now you're getting in and even pre sale, you know, starting to kind of sell the vision of what, you know, sales engagement could be to a company. But do you miss the like, getting in there and working with, you know, a prospect and working through deals? And, you know, landing a major deal like some of those highs that you get is a sales pro. I mean, as being, you know, running sales hacker, and then, you know, running the marketing for outreach. For a while, I imagine you were a little removed from them. I'm actually in a lot of our mawr strategic deals, so I still get I still get that high on. And then we have what are called boom emails. What happened...

...when we close the deal over 10,000. In a r r une email goes out to the company that says, You know, new logo one or expansion or win back or whatever it is. And then, uh, it details The a R R details the reps that were on the deal of details. You know, everything else on there, and it's it's something that just builds camaraderie, morale, excitement. Everybody gets to see who's signing up. But you know, in ah ah, lot of those deals, the reps will go in and tell a little story about how they won or you know what it took thio what the learning experience was, which I also find super valuable. But e think you'll find me in quite a few of those. I'm in a ah lot of our deals helping out wherever I can, whether it's making introductions through the network, providing kind of sales guidance or assistance, or just really understanding the angles and and you know what plays we should run or you know where we should make sure we press when you know in a heavy compete deal or in a outside I see P deal or in an enterprise deal where, you know, I might be my my experience in understanding our product intimately and doing some of this sounds. Engagement work might come in handy. And how do you balance? You have this incredible network, right? You wanna be able to leverage that for a sale or for a deal, but not tapping it too much. So, like, if you if we're in a deal on, let's say I'm in a e for you. And you know, we're working this deal and you know, the VPs sales or, you know, the CEO and you, you know, you've had them as a speaker Thio sales hacker before something like that do you have to meet her? How much you get involved there and like, press those lines? There's a kind of understood that because you're known as being kind of the sales and sales hacking guy, and you're selling a sales engagement platform that you can do it and you can do so in kind of a tactful way to add value to the conversation and, you know, try to link the two parties together. Yeah, I mean, having been in sales for a long time, I think I'm a fairly good at reading the room at this point. So yeah, you're absolutely right. And I'm not just gonna go in there and be like, Hey, we know each other by my product. Here's my product by my product. It's about helping hand or helpful friend or, you know, consultant in the and seeing if somebody who can come and support and help their business And, you know, you're a trusted adviser in A in a way, so being very tactful, still leading with value, still not going around people asking for permission type stuff, but being ableto leverage the network is is definitely a superpower. And being ableto provide value to folks that is separate from just the outrage deal cycle. I think you know Ed's to that. So we've got lots of different ways. Thio, you know, provide value and help people build their brands, helping people make connections, how people make hires, whatever it is that we're able toe leverage to broker conversations that I think people feel really good about. So there's been plenty of times where, you know, we've been looking to sell to a company and and you know I could reach out, see if they're ready. They're not. In the meantime, they need a you know, rev ops higher or head of sales development or ahead of inside sales. Or they need to hire some A s. And then in those cases, I'm able to use the network to help them, you know, find those hires or some candidates. And then when it is time for their evaluation, not only do we already have a relationship, but I've been able to provide value for them beforehand. So I think we do, ah, lot of things like that where you know, again, I I just genuinely like helping. And so it's not. It doesn't feel like I'm really going out of my way. Yeah, and you probably have so many people that you have deposited so much...

...value to again, whether it's a higher or an introduction or help with something, or you let them be a speaker somewhere that when you come around and you do come across with an ask or just maybe even just kind of feeling out a situation, they're ready and welcome in their warm to you about it because you've already added value. There you built the report. They see you. They trust you, etcetera. So I think that's another thing that can't be overestimated for someone that is looking to build out their network or already has a strong network of of trying to be able to, you know, keep putting others first. So that one, you know, again, it feels good. And it's helpful. But it does kind of turn around and repay you. You know, karma repays you on the back end, too. So I think you're a great example of that. Yeah. Business karma is riel, and I'm a big believer in it. So let's talk about the go to market fund. That just that was fun. That just got announced what, like a week ago? And I thought it was I thought it was a really cool idea. Maybe you could just give us a quick 32nd run down of what it is. And we could talk about, you know, the inception of how that came in to be and where you're looking to make some of those investments and how that's gonna all work. Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, goes back to the V p of sales engagement conversation. I, uh I recognize that we're going through kind of a, I don't know, a revolution might be an extreme word or are what not? But I'm gonna use it anyway. But of of GTM. So there are more sales technology and marketing technology companies coming out than ever before. We see money's going into it. Everything is being changed from, you know what the status quo was used to have a data source, a CRM in a marketing automation platform. And now you've got so much technology that allows you to Dr Revenue faster and more efficient than ever before. And it's pretty incredible. And sometimes, you know, if you don't have ah process in place and you're not thinking about it the right way, you can overload it. You know there's ability. It quote says, technology is a magnifying glass. So, you know, if you magnify a a good process, it could be amazing. But if you magnify a bad process, I mean it could be become terrible, and it could, you know, end up screwing you over self. There's needs to be, ah, lot of education still around GTM, and I think the VPs sales engagement role allows me to be, you know, one of the places that are are pillars of education in modern GTM and one of the key thought leaders in that. But I also think that there's still so much room for other folks with experience in GTM, especially in B two b sas to get involved in a bigger way. And we're in the really early stages of sass in general. I think we're in the first pitch of the first inning. You know, the first game of, ah, you know 1999 Yankees season, you know, talking about playoffs too. So we're really early. You're even starting to see other SAS companies that have existed starting to get disrupted, which is why some of these big ones were starting toe to Dio, you know, acquisitions of companies that already cannibalizing them. And, you know, it really started, what with what? Like Salesforce and Adobe and some of these companies, you know, 15, 20 years ago, so again early stages attended a lot left to be built, and GTM is still one of the hardest things. So if you could find people who have experienced in the, you know, broad area of go to market, whether that be, you know, customer success, sales and marketing, and then breaking down even further brand content demand JIN rev ops sales development. There's so many different areas that these companies need support. If you can get that, then the money that you get from...

...a B C from you know becomes even, you know, more compelling arm or more useful. You can be more efficient with that capital. So thinking through the whole thing, my role, it outreach and then you know what, What? That evolves to overtime. I wanted to find a way to give some of these GTM leaders who are my friends in the space access to the startups that I was investing in any way with my own personal capital. And then Angel List came out with their rolling funds feature and made it all really easy in, you know, ah, year ago, two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, I would have need needed to hire, you know, 1 to 2 people, done a bunch of legal and tax stuff and head back office and whatever else. And now Angel is rolling fun. They take care of all that for me. So my job is literally just raised money to ploy money. And, uh, I've got access toe a lot of different companies through having built a media company in the B two b sas space. And I've got, ah, a lot of friends in the gpm space who were interested in in, ah, joining me on this, uh, really fun adventure. So we raised about two million to invest in B two B sax companies will come in at the seed, or a stage will come in with 50 K checks, 40 different companies this year. And, yeah, that 68 different GTM leaders who are investors in the fund and should be a cool, cool network, A lot of fun. Uh, booty and and Iran over a gang are in there. So some of the guys from from your team, but yeah, it's a really great group. I think we have some really, really special people. When it comes to doing certain things at that's s companies, for example, everybody is probably one of the best content and brand CMOS. You know, I've seen we have Holly Firestone, who has an awesome name, but also, you know, that laughing community, uh, you know, from scratch and then took over the troubled or community four or five years ago. So has seen, you know, built two of the most amazing communities and be to be fast. So, you know, if we help companies that inevitably you're going to need those things that we have people in our network who can help with them. And so the thought process there is that, you know, instead of a normal VC where they're so far removed, they've been a VC for two decades, you know, right? They're not running the Trailblazer community. They're not building a fast, be to be fast growing B two B SAS company. You kind of have this extra leg up as people that are actually practitioners and what they're trying to do and be able to advise on that. So is that the kind of the thought that you might invest in a company? They need help building out their brand, for example, that beauty comes in and you know, he makes himself available to them, or there's no situation where they're ramping up their sales engagement. You make yourself available to them is that kind of the process? Exactly. So you know, we've got the people with the expertise behind us now is where you gonna go Spend hours and hours and hours with that company? No, probably not. But you can help them, you know, put together a game plan, you know, in, uh, 30 or 60 minute coaching session for a company. He's got skin in the game on and, you know, make himself available to answer questions in our slack group that we have with our LPs and are start ups. So we invested. So they've got, like, direct access in those ways, which I think is this super beneficial. And then who chooses, You know, which 40 companies you're gonna invest in, Is it? Is it you and some of the limited partners? Nope. It's just May. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I've I've I've got the track record and the proven experience and and, you know, and we raised this thing, it was just like, Hey, you're gonna trust me to go make the right calls based on you know what I've done in the past. Outreach gang drift, bambora, carbon health. Quite a few...

...good ones in there with pretty high mark ups. And then, ah, you know, a lot of ones that I think we'll do really well. But too early to tell because I've only been investing for less than five years now, So metadata is up. 10 X, uh, arm or catalyst is another one. Anyway, I've got the track record, so hopefully everybody trust me. They give me their money. They probably dio Yeah, yeah, we're We're conviction over consensus here. Yeah. So how did you even let's? Let's even then take it back. Right, Because I think I saw you've invested in something around 55 different companies and some huge names that you just dropped. So how did you even get started in that? As being someone that was You're in sales. You running a media company? You obviously had a great network. We're doing things creatively. But how did that first opportunity even present itself to you? Yeah, it's funny. The first investment ever made was, um, was outreach. Uh, kidding, man. He got intrude to me through Lars Nelson, who was a mutual friend. I was running sales hacker man. He was just starting a company in the sale space. He pivoted from the recruiting space. So as any good CEO would you know, he wanted toe kind of know, right? Who's who do we need a kind of hitch our wagon to toe? Understand this space well, or network well, and, um many. And I met in Union Square in San Francisco in December of 2014, and, uh, I am caffeine free, so I probably in orange juice or something like that. And he had a coffee and talking shop, and, you know, I love the space um, was friends with At the time I was It was very close with TK from tout APP, which no longer exists. They required by market out. But t k s out there somewhere. Great dude. And I was close with a lot of the other players in that space and under the space very well. But Manny was coming at it from a really unique angle. They were a product and customer success led company in the space and man. He had been a product person for Microsoft and Amazon previously, and they were making everybody that signed up for average go through these Siris of on boarding videos and conversations with one of the other founders. And I just thought that that friction and that barrier to use their platform in the beginning was genius because everybody else would just feel like, Alright, sign up, jump in there, start playing around. And like for that early in the company. To care that much about customer development, I thought was I thought was something that's like, All right, as your company scales the culture trickles down from the founders and the CEO like this is something that will always be like deeply rooted into outreach, which is so necessary and has proven necessary as the company has grown. On top of that, I met Manny and the guy's a bulldog like Grew up in Ecuador, came over the U S. A 20 learned English and I got over here, put himself through college, put himself through Harvard, put himself and, uh, I got a job. Microsoft got job at Amazon and started this company. You know, the adversity that that he's fought through, you know, I'll probably never know. So there was a good bet, even though there was no traction or anything at the time, You know, you you have to just bet on the space and you have to bet on the founder. And I think that was Ah, that was a no brainer. You know, when I met a meet and an idiot, gone was another no brainer. It's like you're here to guys that just, like, know how to get done. And I meet was super proven, obviously. And, uh, I like what they were working on space they're working in. So, you know, uh, on some deals, I really just haven't had to do mental backflips at all. Sometimes they're just like, you know, this is a no brainer. Um, and maybe the other people, they weren't because there were a lot of nose and a lot of passes on on outreach, you know, before and during when I met them and I helped them raise their their seat. After I...

...invested, they were talking thio, MHS capital, who was in a seed investor in you, to me, which was the first company I was at in Tech. And it was funny, I I set one of the, you know, me co founders up with a license of outreach because he asked me to help him with some consulting stuff at his company called Sprig, which was a food delivery service in San Francisco that was blowing up at the time back in like 2014 eggs was and and HS had invested in sprig because they invested in you and me also, and they did well for him. And so they called me up for diligence on outreach, and I was like, I like it so much, I put my own money, and then they did the seed. And then the rest is history. So once, once, uh, man, he was able to get some real capital behind him on that team. They were off to the races, and then they triple triple, triple, double, double. I mean, they did, uh, the hybrid path. So where they are now, that's amazing. And so was that. Was that always in the in the plans in some way for that that sales hacker acquisition? Because I haven't seen when I saw it, it was it made so much sense. But I wouldn't have ever predicted it because you don't generally see SAS companies buying media companies, right? I mean, I don't think so. So I'm curious. If that was something that maybe just came from the relationship and maybe part of the talent, right, he wanted to get you and and some of your employees is part of the growth as well. Yeah, we had no, uh, no idea that that was gonna happen when I made the investment, for sure. I mean, it was we did the acquisition 3, 3.5 years later. But, um, as, uh, I think a good CEO probably does. And maybe maybe, you know, venture back CEOs don't do this, but I think like bootstrap founders probably dio bootstrap sales Hacker didn't raise any money, But I always had this spreadsheet of potential acquirers and my relationship strength with those potential choirs. And I had a broken down in a couple different buckets. So bucket one with sass companies. And those were like, LinkedIn, hub spot, outreach, drift, You know, other sales engagement platforms, you know, Marcato, things like that. Then I had another bucket for consulting and training companies. There were a lot of those, but it's like the Sandlers Miller Hyman's even like winning by design. And then there was the research and advisory firms like the Forrester. Serious decisions. They were separate time topo a couple of those on then, uh, and then I would even include, like the, um, Informa and the u B u B m s of the world like big conference businesses. And it was like it was the company named and like who I knew. What? The company. What? My relationship strength waas was like, Ah, high enough level person at that company, etcetera, etcetera. And And I have had conversations with some other companies earlier in 2018 that didn't end up going anywhere or kind of like a wait and see mode. And I went to unleash, which was outrageous Conference 2018 Day. And I had 15 minutes of Manny rightfully sout. He just raised a $65 million Siri's D and a half a billion dollar valuation. He was there to see customers, so I got 15 minutes of them and I said, Hey, congrats on the round. What keeps you up at night? He says marketing said, Okay, cool. I got a 80,000 person list of B two b sas people, a media company, you know that have run over the past five years, and you've got best in class sales software. Let's make this thing happen. He's like, Well, I can't afford You'd like to just raise it a half million dollar valuation like I'll take stock. He's like, E thought you...

...just wanted to let go of retire in Miami and, you know, I was like, I'll come back to work for this So I had a good, good life towards the end of sales Hacker. They're way ahead, like, kind of hired out. Ah, lot of the day to day stuff. And, uh but, you know, when you were chilling, Yeah, but we had a We had a plateau. We had a nice business, but it wasn't a phenomenal business. And if I wanted to turn it into a phenomenal business, I have to take some risk. And so it was. Either it was either potentially cannibalized the good business to go for a phenomenal and try and build a couple lines of businesses off of what we had or sell for, you know, stock and upside, and then build big with somebody else. So I ended up making a lot of sense for outreach in sales hacker and, uh, and I met with the rest of the team over the next few weeks. And then we had to deal done in three months. And, you know, once we came to terms after, like, I don't know, four weeks of back and forth, which included, like, two weeks of Manny being away because you happen to get married at that time in in Italy Way got it done pretty quickly and, uh and then, yeah, I started working probably six weeks before even at the deal. Done and then, uh, off to the races. Ever since it's been it's been good. That's amazing. I love it. And would you say that, You know, given your success and kind of the route that you've taken that you know, you see these other people and I'm looking at some other folks that I think are part of the They go to market fund. You mentioned some folks from Gong. I think I saw, you know, Justin Welch. I think it's also a few other folks that have built out kind of those brands as well and really built out their networks. I mean, I guess you know, part of the part of your job is to do the job well, right? I guess that's the most important part. Like if you have a number two hit as a VPs sales, you gotta hit it. If you have revenue, our pipeline goal as a VP of marketing like you've got to hit it. But would you agree that you have to nowadays build something outside of your day job like you? It's all it's not. It's as close to this necessary as as you think, in terms of, like wanting to have those opportunities to get involved with something like the GTM fund or find that next great gig or be, you know, around for an angel investment or whatever it might be that that's just such a key part in today's age. Oh, we're not. It's Ah, it's definitely useful to have a brand. I mean, if you want to be considered for, like the next hot startup job, it's definitely helpful. If you're talking to two people who do their jobs really well and one person has a well known brand, the other one doesn't you're probably going to go with The person is a well known brand nowadays that's becoming, I mean, easier to do, but more and more necessary. And the markets are making everybody look good at their job, by the way. So like, you kind of need that, like, added benefit. But if you're good at your job, you're really good at your job. You're probably gonna get, you know, the next job anyway. You know, for me, I like to diversify. I'd like to have a lot of different things that I like to change of pace. I don't play golf. I don't ski and snowboard on the weekends. I don't watch Netflix or binge watch TV shows. I'm either working on this stuff that I love, which is, you know, this'd industry sales stuff, or I'm hanging out with family and friends down here in Austin. So, like I, you know where some people have that hobby or that other thing that they spend. You know, five or 10 hours a week on like that could easily be the GTM fun for May. So I think that's why you're able to do it. And you know, I and I have had, like, almost I almost like Road Open F a Q for lending because people like, Well, how could you do both at the same time? I'm like, Well, just because they're they're in the same industry doesn't mean it's any any less than, like the the sales leader who does to invest in real estate on the side, or the sales leader who, like, you know, has ah, family restaurant or something like...

...that, or someone who plays golf every weekend or go skiing or snowboarding every weekend. I guess I probably them less time on some of the stuff I do on the side, then, Ah, lot of those folks. So I'm able to balance my time pretty well. And because it's a creative to everything else, you know, it just kind of goes hand in hand. It works out a lot of my LPs that I build better relationships with. I'll build relationships with over time, but they're all outrage customers or potential customers. You know how valuable those relationships are Just in those cases, pretty amazing. So, yeah, I mean, everybody internally had signed off on it because they understand that as well. Yeah, I mean, it's all a compound effect, right of the stronger your network is that the more you know about the space, the more new connections you have. The budding companies that are coming up now on Lee helps what you're doing, and it helps your company. I totally agree. Um, just as we're wrapping up, I'd love to hear just while we're talking about some of these smaller, younger companies. Do you have any sales technology? That's that's top of mind for you right now. Any any companies or tools that you are, the team is using that you find beneficial that maybe people haven't heard of or they think are you think is undervalued right now, man, I like the two. The three things that I used on a day to day basis, sir. Linked in gang and outreach. So those air, those are the big ones. So you're you gotta you gotta fresh new job in the right place. Shut out, Thio. Yeah, but you know, other than that big fan of what lavender is doing, try lavender dot com. They're doing some cool stuff that air, that air hooking in tow. Outreach coming soon, man. Who else? That That Zatz on the day to day side? I don't know I mean, there's there's a lot, there's there's too much I could spend an hour on this, but I'd rather just I would rather fly through it. Yeah, well, we'll leave it at that. The go to stack of LinkedIn outreach and gone and then for kind of an up and comer that I don't think a lot of people have heard of lavender. So you guys can check that out as well. But the problem with the problem with that line of questioning for me is that, like, I'm inevitably gonna leave out somebody who's gonna be Dude, what about us? Yeah, yeah, I'm just like a to this point. I'm just like I'm just gonna like it's gonna run over it. You know, I really do like guys that sonar There's another really interesting one as well. Helps get understanding what's going on and what's getting updated in in, uh, in salesforce so that when you update something that you know an integrated platform, it will show your admin ends and your rev Ops team Like what? What happened? What changed inside of salesforce. So it leads to, like, less confusion across platforms. Nice. I love it, man. Well, look, I'll let you jump here. I appreciate your time. Congrats on all the new excitement going on both professionally and personally. Anything that you're excited about coming out here in February or March that you want to let people know our otherwise Just let us know where we can hit you up on LinkedIn or otherwise. Yeah, we'll be, um we'll be launching a couple programs that outreach stay tuned for, obviously, our annual conference on leash and some other things. Some big product announcements to GTM fund. If you know anybody who's raising and b two b sas, send them our way DTM fun to dot com. And then, uh, yeah, just, uh, trimming on LinkedIn. If you like the episode or want to chat or, uh or I'll see in the revenue collected slack. I love it, man. Max Altshuler. Appreciate you coming on the show, brother. Thanks for having me, man. Thank you for listening to that episode of the revenue Collective podcast. Hope you learned a lot from Max again. We want to thank our sponsor. This episode was brought to you by six cents powered by AI and Predictive...

Analytics. Six cents helps you unite your entire revenue team with a shared set of data to achieve predictable revenue growth. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a friend, a colleague, a coworker customer, Abbas. And please let us know how we did give us a review on Apple podcast. That helps us to grow the show, get better guests and make this show is great as we can for you. Thanks. We'll be back next time for another episode, please.

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