The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

Ep 196: SDR Career Growth Framework w/ Jason Serota, Adobe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 196: SDR Career Growth Framework w/ Jason Serota, Adobe 

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo

Book. All right, everybody, welcome back to the pavilion podcast, where revenue leaders come to learn the tips, two tricks and the tactics they need to be successful. I'm your host, Tom Alemo, over a gong. They call me Tommy Tahoe, and I'm pumped to be here on a Monday of SDR appreciation week. This is the week where we show some love to our bed ours and SDRs. And on that note, I've got Jason Saroda, who is the head of corporate business development over at Adobe, help talk about not only the week but also his career growth framework for scrs, which is phenomenal. If you are an SCR or an St our leader, this is a must listen. He breaks us down in much detail as to how you can set this up. So we're going to get to that interview in one second, but first a quick word from our sponsor. This episode of the Pavilion Podcast is brought to you by six sense. Six sense, the number one account engagement platform, helps you identify accounts that are in market for your solution, prioritize your efforts, engage buyers the right way with highly relevant messaging, and measure what actually matters. Snce customers report A to x increase in deal sized, ten percent improvement and opportunity conversion rates, twenty five percent reduction in deal to close time and one hundred or twenty percent improvement in revenue effectiveness. That's a lot of percentages. To learn more, you can visit them at six sensecom revenue collective. Again, I am on Linkedin, Tom Lamo. I work at Gong. You can hit me up. I post every single day about sales in growth mindset and love to hear your feedback in the podcast. Without further ado, let's get into today's interview. All right, Jason Saroda, welcome to the pavilion podcast. Good morning, how are you? Good Morning. Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to connect, especially on this very passionate topic of mine. So really looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, we'll most likely, when people are listening to this, it will be the first week or the first day of BEDR SDR appreciation week and I know that that topic hits it's close to home for you and is been really a the world that you've lived in, you know, for the last few years, and that leadership over at Adobe. So I'm excited to really learn from you around. You know how you how you know those teams. Maybe you could just give a quick before we get into like the specifics and then they degree. Maybe could just give a quick overview of like what the team looks like at Adobe. Like you know what size of company are the bdrs scrs reaching out to? How many people are on your team? Just to give people a little bit of a background on like you know what it is in your role? Yeah, no, great question. So I run the Corporate Business Development Organization for...

Adobe. Adobe's obviously very large corporation, and saw there's different business units for the for bd R, for the BEDR Org. So there's the digital experience division and that's the part of division I'm part of it. And there's also the digital media business, which is what most people think of Adobe is, you know, the Photoshop and Adobe Acrobat. That's a different side of the business. I'm more of on the enterprise side, selling into large corporations that are usually around, you know, three hundred million above five hundred million above revenue. But it could be a wide range of in terms of sizes of companies, but usually it's focus bb only versus not btc specific and and how many reps roughly Sudnite, around like forty for my specific business unit and then there's other different business units that there's like a SB specific green field unit. So there's different business units. So it's around like forty for each business unit for the DX Org. Around probably around hundred fifty two hundred for the DX Org. So good size amount of people. And then a couple, like a handful of like frontline leaders that like yeah, so I'll have for front line managers under me and depending on each business unit, they'll have, you know, second line leaders and frontline leaders under them. So specifically run for under me is probably that. In this is a brand new org that we started this year, so I'm really really profession about it and building out this new business. It's really really okay cool. So that that's helpful context, just so people can kind of relate that to where they are. So I know one thing that you've been really passionate about. We've spoken a little bit about this is just like is career growth for drs and strs in your org and trying to help them get to where they want to go. And I've never led one of these teams. But it seems really tricky because, you know, the BDR job is generally your someone's first sales job, if not their first job at all after college. They're ambitious the goals to get promoted. They may be aren't sure where they what they want to get promoted into, and there seems to be kind of this like fine line of you don't want to bump them up too quickly because they need to learn the job and be prepared, but if you hold on too long then they might get bored or, you know, they might get frustrated or some other emotion and leave or, you know, check out mentally of the job. It's so it just seems like a really tough concept to grasp. So I'd love for you to just talk about your philosophy for career growth as relates to the bedrs on your team. Yeah, no, it's a great question. So well, I guess one thing is, you know, when bdrs come in sometimes, you know they're very sought out, like they really know what they want to do. They want to be a sales rap, they want to go into marketing or, you know, sales operations, or they're sometimes readers who don't know what they want. So we usually for people don't know if they want, I have a framework and breaking down, understanding what skills they really enjoy using and breaking down and having them talk with other different roles to see, you know, which, which, which skills will actually fill their skills bucket...

...that they really enjoy using the most, in kind of having this mindset that if you don't know what you do, you're doing it's okay. That's first it's okay, and it's okay to get into something that you aren't sure of, because usually you're going to bring that unique experience you know, to the next role. So let's pretend like you think you would, you're interested in sales and customer success. But if you make the jump to customer success and realize you enjoy it but it's not the long term goal and you're now interested in going to sales, you know you're going to bring that unique customer experience, customer success experience, to sales that no one else has. That's going to help you be successful in my next experience. So not first breaking down that wall of like what? Don't be afraid to jump, because it's not like you're going to be stuck in that role forever and honestly, it's probably going to benefit you that much more. So that's my first thing in terms of like changing their mindset on it, if you don't know what you want, and that's okay. And in terms of really getting drs unders have a whole framework, breaking it down, of really getting you, you know, pretty much if you fill these four buckets of my framework, it's highly likely you'll get to the role you're you're wanting to creating and get into. And the way I break it down is one is, you know, building your network. The second one is that your visibility at the company, developing your skill set, and then your performance as well, which I can dive into two further as well. Yeah, I would love maybe for you to just expand on those four points. Like you know, for example, when you're seeing talking about building kind of your brand in your network. Yeah, maybe part of that is like what you do on Linkedin, but I think another part of that is like how are you perceived internally at the company, by your peers, by other managers, by the team that you maybe want to get promoted within? And so maybe if you have just like an example of each of those four yeah knots on. I'd love to hear great, great thoughts. So I'll before I even dive into examples, I want to just talk about like post. I think it has to do with you know, it will fill these examples. Is the biggest objection you're thinking about like a bdr or I see are moving up to the next role. My opinion, you know when you're going through the interview process you're going to hear this objection is, well, you know, if someone's trying to go into sales and the hiring manager might say, well, well, they don't have enough closing experience or that, or if you're going to go to marketing, will they don't have marketing experience and and I think that's always going to be the biggest objection. And by falling this process is really going to set you up where you're not going to have to worry as much about that objection and it's going to set you up where the higher manager doesn't have that thought about you when you're going through the interview process. So it's definitely something to really think about. So one is building your network, so making sure you're reaching out to just having coffees and getting to know other organizations, other networks in other teams, not only the hiring manager but people on those teams. So, let's say if you're trying to go into sales and made that transition, you know, reaching out to direct reports understand how they made that transition, building a...

...relationship with the hiring manager, you know, reaching out to get get them to know you. I think that's super, super crucial. And then doing that before there's a job opportunity open. I think that's one of the biggest things I would say is don't just reach out when there's a job opportunity. You know, reach out to introduce yourself. Start, you know, and it doesn't have to be start small. You know, reach out. It could be something is maybe you're you're supporting their team already and it's in it's here's an you're sending them a message about a cool opportunity source for them. You know, start small and start building that over time and then you can start asking, you know, for a coffee and getting to know them and as they getting they're getting to know you. For the visibility aspect, it's really, really crucial. People know who you are. You know you maybe you're working at a small start up or maybe it's a huge, large corporation. So visibility could fall into a vote wide range of ways to do this. It doesn't necessarily always have to be like visibility within your role itself. Maybe your organization provides is like different, you know, committees like that, culture committees. So maybe you want to get involved with, you know, there's a social committy to plan like a holiday party for your team, maybe, let's say, and you get involved in that and it kind of helps build relationships with cross functional teams and others, and then you get to kind of send emails out to everyone within the organization or get in front of everyone during the holiday party. That's just an example maybe, but for your specific team, visibility could be maybe you're leading a team meeting and everyone's looking to you. Maybe it's a team meeting for the ORG. Maybe it's something that you're bringing on speakers to, you know, guess speakers to your team. There's a lot of different ways to get people involved, to people to know who you are, and I think that's one is really really crucial as to get people who know who you are. Second would be, you know, developing your skill set, like never stop learning and that could be, you know, maybe you're looking to get better at, you know, like understanding data and leveraging data, which I think it's a really under utilized skill, and and taking some courses like, you know, let's Ay see urt like sales course, reporting courses. I think that's something that's really under utilized, that you know, just constantly learning and looking to grow and learn. It is really, really, really crucial. Maybe it's taking a sales course, maybe it's a market you know, learning a marketing technology and how to leverage at if you're looking, you know, getting a certification if you're wanting to be going to marketing, and then performance as well. I think you know a lot of if you do the first three, I feel like a lot of times that supports the performance part. Is, if you're constantly developing your skills, then the performance will come naturally. So that's why I put that at the bottom. And you don't always have to be the top performer to get that promotion. That's the one thing I want. People like you don't think you have to. I would say being upper half is is, you know, a lot ideal, but if you have those other buckets, then that's going to help you succeed in the next role. And Oh, sorry,...

...you have question. Yeah, I'm just curious when when we're talking about some of these things, how much of the onus of this is on, you know, you as the leader, versus on the actual str him or herself in terms of going out in trying to find, you know, what those courses are to take or to you know, great good food, ask for coffee. Like should you be? SHOULD BE? You be guiding them? Should you be lading this out for them, or they kind of be figuring it out? And that's part of the process, one hundred percent. I mean I highly suggest it's kind of make sure of both. I think I've had bdrs come to me with this is a course I want to take, and in everyone you when you manage, its a really depends on who you're managing, because everyone works differently. Some people you know when to give them the space and they're very independent, which is great. So they come to you with ideas and people they want to meet and you want to support that. Sometimes the people need that extra support. Of Hey, he is a really good course, I think. You know, I would recommend that you take that really help develop this skill set when you're coaching them, and similar with networking, like here's a list of people they're really interested in going into. It's a you know, sales operations, and you make an introduction to them because you have that relationship to me with them and because you met with them, and then maybe a month later there's a operation like opportunity ready, the hiring manager is already thinking of you, that you took the initiative to get to know them and learn them. It is a major game changer. Like the amount of times how much this has helped. That's happened recently with somebody on my team where that was one of the biggest designing factors. It was the person reached out before the job opportunity was posted and showed the initiative to develop that relationship, to show the interest in wanting to learn and in understand one what what problems are occurring in that role, but what they can do to support them in starting to shadow them. I think shadowing it's great as well. So I think that's definitely part of the process and one of the most to get back to, like, my first big point, I think is really really crucial, is is how do you handle that objection of how do you get experienced without, you know, having that experience? And I think that's the golden question. And people might say, you know, start doing the job that you want, and I hundred percent believe in that, but sometimes that's not clear of like what is it that exactly mean? So I wanted to run through, like a couple examples of in the key is getting getting, you know, people invested in you. So a metaphor example of this. Remember when you're in school, like when you're in high school and college, and let's say you're taking a class and you were having let's say you were having trouble or you just want to extra help, you would go to the teacher, you know, for Oneonone, you know after school, and they would sit back, you know, sit down with you and you would want to work with them and they get invested in you to get to grow and learn, and I think that's very similar to your career. So I think, for example, it could be let's say you're wanting to be a solutions consultant and wanting to do demonstrations. You know,...

...why not record your own demo and then send it to after you develop a relationship with them? You know, ask for their feedback and and get their by and this is before job is posted, and then they'll send you feedback and then you do it again and then you can show that you're coachable but also show that you're improving your skill set and over time they'll see that you're coachable and improving and that you already can do the job because you're basically you're recording demos and you're doing it all right. That could be one. It could be recording some of your calls that you're having as a Dr or even your you had developed a relationship with your sales are up and they're letting you kind of lead a call, but make sure you record that call so you can show that and give it to the sales hiring manager to get feedback, and then you can improve that and then kind of keep going back and forth, and so pretend like you're creating like this. The best way to explain it, like the visual portfolio of your work, that you can go back and forth with the hiring manager once you develop that relationship and then you get that investment and then they're invested in your career and growth. So when there's an opportunity they're they're going to want to bring you on. Their team is already vested in you, and I think that's the key because one, they can see that you're already doing it in coachable, but also they're already they are to know you in their invested in your in your career, so they're going to want to hire you as well. And I guess a third example, just because I give like a sales example and in a social consultant example, is if a Bdrre, you know, looking to go into marketing, you know, why not create, you know, if you're using a sales engagement tool like outreach or sales off and create your own campaign and messaging and idea. That's very much similar to like a demand generation campaign and then and then tracked results of it, and then that's kind of like a great example. And then you can show that to marketing and get their feedback and then and then keep doing the process like that, and that's kind of like your own version of a demand generation campaign where they can share that you know how to be creative and and create messaging and content from from scratch. So there's a lot of different approaches and working with your BEDR leaders to create that type of structure for you so you can kind of set you up for success but also show that you can do the job already that's being asked to do, that you're interviewing for, without getting that objection as well. Yeah, I mean it's to me, you know, it sounds like what you need to do is is kind of like take the matter into your own hands. But you're playing the long game right if you're, if you're doing these things before there's the job open or before you know you're actually interviewing for the job, you're kind of planting the seeds so that when the opportunity becomes, you're the person that they think of, and that, I imagic, could dramatically cut down the amount of time that it takes to get that role, because if you start doing that once the job's open, it might take you multiple months, maybe multiple quarters to, you know, actually go through the process and develop the skills you need. But if you're doing that along the way, when the job opens, you might be the first person they think of or you might at least get that initial interview and earn the right to move up. Yeah, no, one hundred percent. I mean I think that's the...

...key is you know, and then it's just like with anything, and you know in pretend you're you know. This is relatable like with whenever you're asking for something. You know you maybe you're looking for an investment because you're you're you know, you're starting your startup company and you're looking for money. You know, building those relationships before you have to make that ask is so key because it can come off so strong if you're you know. Can I have you know when you're asking for something and you don't even know the person. So I think it's that's why I say that's honestly why I say the network is probably the number one thing out of the for buckets is building your network, building those relationships first, and then you can start develop and that, as you add on, they know you and then you can start making those smaller ass and build on top of it. So, for my examples of like get asking for feedback from sales managers. You know, that would be the next part of the process, not the first thing you do. You need to be you know, reach out Ashpour for a coffee, you know, do informational interviews, ask them about their career. People really enjoy talking about themselves, you would be a surprised and people want to help out other people. They might be really, really busy, but I think it's, you know, getting you know, in adding value to them. So that's why I say sometimes, if it's something that maybe you're looking to go into sales, if you're working on a specific opportunity for them, maybe start small and saying, Hey, I found this opportunity, wanted to flag it for you, like start communicating with them, if you don't have it like relationship on a smaller scale, and then you build on top of it. Eventually you can ask for a coffee and then, you know, over time, then you can start hey, do you mind? You know, if you give me feedback? I recorded the sales call that I did with my sales are up that WHO's under your team when it is here, your thoughts on areas that can improve, and then you keep doing that and then and then you take their feedback and then showing that your coachable is one is such a big, big, big thing and it shows that you're can do the job because you're going to continue this process and get to that level where they can see your growth, that it's going to be a no brainer and they're not going to add that thought of. Well, why you don't have closing experience is it's not going to come up in their head. It's just not, because they already so invested in you and they see you can do the role and you are doing roule. Do you have a timeline range that you generally look at when you're doing SDR promotions like you like to yeah, certain minimum or certain maximum amount of time in the role? I I am a big bullet. Really depends on the person. Like I know people might say like a year or two years on average, and it also does depend on the size of company. You know, like a startup, you might get promoted within six months or a lot quicker because there's a big need for that, or a larger corporation like you know. You know sales for our Dobe, you know Microsoft. Usually it's a it's a little bit longer because it's not much of it's not it's not as much of a need in terms of meeting it right this second, because the company is not going to fall apart if,...

...unless there's that role is not filled. But I would say it really depends on the person and how you you know, as you're working with them, what skills needed? I've had I've had people who have shown, you know, just taking the initiative from the get go and under a year they've been able to do it. At our company, which is pretty quick to move from a Bedr role to the next roll or sales role under ears very quick just because of the size of our company. But if they take the initiative and they can literally start doing these four buckets and building the relationship and and really having that attitude and not afraid of the risk in the failure, then I think it's definitely attainable. But I would say it really depends on the person and it's okay, like I think don't rush the process. I know a lot of times, you know, people get in and a year into a Bedr roll there like you know, I've done this so long and you know, wanting to rush to be an a and rush to the next roll and in asking yourself like what is the rush? Like you, you want to make sure you're set up for success in the next role, and that's my biggest thing when I'm coaching you know, managers and bet ours, is I don't want you getting into that marketing role of sales role, where you're set up for failure. But also there's a fine line where I want you to get being scared. It's a good thing, but I also in taking that jump and trusting them. It's definitely positive, but I don't want you to get in there where you're set up for failure. So talking through examples of situations, you know, asking the questions like, you know, let's roll play and like talk about like you know how to do this or this, and getting them to a point where they know how to do the role already. Or maybe, let's say if they're going in to market, and get them sort of certified and, you know, marketing automation technology so they actually know how to use it before they get into the role, because they don't, then I feel like diving right in, it's going to be very, very challenging. So it's just going to help them ramp up a lot better that next role. I think the last thing that I think would be interesting to hear about around this too, is just like it maybe it seems obvious, but but would love to just hear you talk about, you know, how upfront the Strho should be with their manager about this right like to me. It was like my first step. The first step is to, if you're my managers, that to tell you about this ambition and maybe you think, wow, this looks great. You're a top performer. I think you're you're going to be on this path. But maybe I'm delusional. So little bit like I've got some gaps and you've got some concerns before. Because even if that that a manager loves you or the CSM manager loves you, as yet as an str you're not going to get that promotion, I don't think, unless your boss gives the green light first internally. So would love to just kind of hear about that dynamic as well. Yeah, great question. It's a in just to add on top of that, I think one of the number one things, and thinks something I learned in my career that I almost I wish I learned earlier, is really asking. It's so important to be vocal and ask for what you want. Like that's probably one...

...of my if you had to hear anything from this, you know podcast recording, like managers and people at Your company are just you know, they're on myneators and a lot of times people might assume you know I've been in this role for two years and and you know I'm ready for the a year old. But you know, it's really, really important to constantly vocal, vocalized to your manager of what you're wanting to do. That's number one, super important. Or, if you're not sure, work with them on a path. But to answer your question, and if you know they've done these, you know they're working through this and they feel like they're ready. You know, walk through their process and understanding. You know what their plan is to be successful in that role, and that could be creating them three thousand and sixty ninety plan. You know, go through it with them and give them feedback and work through it and then you can kind of gage. You know, do you first you feel like they're truly ready? Are there certain skills that they've developed that you think? You know they're ready to get to the next role? But also, like for skill set development, you know there's obviously more than one way to get a job done. You know, just like a bedr role. You know there's one BEDR who's incredible cold calling could drive the same results for someone who's incredible at copywriting, and it's just that's how they drive the results in different ways. So really understanding people's strengths and weaknesses and is that enough to get you know, to perform well on the next role and talking through that and if there's certain skills they need to develop further, you know, have them take a course. You know. That's why I think if you fill these four buckets and really focus on the skill development, then you'll you'll be able to gage with your you know, as a leap beat our leader, with your direct report, if they're ready to make that jump to the next role, if they are saying they are ready, then you know, go through, you know, examples areas, showing them that I really feel you need to get this done. And then once we accomplish and get this skill set up to a certain level, then I think we want to make sure you were set up for success because, you know, telling them you might think you're ready, but the worst thing I want you to do is I'm invested in you and I want you to be successful. And that's why I'm so passionate about career growth. Is, you know, it's the best gift in life to see some people under me go to the next role and grow in their career. And it's honestly like why I do what I do. And but I want them to be successful and I don't want them to get in the next role in just totally and it's okay to fail at things. So I'm not saying you know certain things, they'll fail and learn, but I want to make sure they're set up too for success to a certain extent, so they feel confident and in their next roll and they feel like they know what they're doing. Certain you're obviously you're not going to. You're not going to know everything until you start doing it. So there's definitely a big part of that, I believe, like you just certain things, like just like on boarding when you're teaching, you can't learn how to be Dr until you start doing the role. Like that's similar to any other role. But there's definitely a level of it, feeling confident in it, and some of this maybe is shadowing other people who are in those roles. Think that's part of it too. And then maybe after shadowing for a certain period of time, you know, you ask if you know,...

...you build that relationship with with the sales rep and say, do you mind it I take this call, and then you shadow me on the call and in jump in, you know when I need the assistance. So that's almost like you're acting as the sales are up already. But that takes time to get to that. So you build that relationship and then you get to point. Do you mind if I literally go through this wholesale cycle, you know, with your support, and you would get the sale. But in and you can record, record, always calls, because then that's like another way to add your visual portfolio. And but then it's going to set you up for success and build that confidence because you'll learn from that experience as well. That's super powerful advice. Jason, before we before we take off, I want to hit you with a couple rapid fire questions, if that's cool with you. Yeah, let's do it all right. So, first off, we're big learners on this podcast. I'm curious if there's any any books relate, if you are a reader, related to it could be sales, could be business, could be fiction, it could be really anything, but anything that's had a an impact on your career or life or just anything. Yeah, enjoying recently probably my my number one leadership book that, honestly, I have some of my mentors have the amount of times I've gone on like interviews in my career and it's on their bookshelf and I laugh because it's literally what I live by and but is multipliers by Liz Weissman. I think that's just the way my leadership style it is very much what how that book has it really much impacted me and of how I work and, you know, and leading with a growth mindset and really focusing on, you know, trusting people to and giving them the space to learn and grow, and very much how would say highly recommend it for for and just developing your leadership skills and your approach with your team. I think it's it's it's really really powerful. Nice. I have not heard of that one. Off to check that one out. Any other types of learning, whether you follow different leaders on Linkedin or podcasts or youtube or newsletters or blogs or anything else related to sales leadership tech, anything like that, that is a must for you or or yeah, I mean learned, I guess. I mean I can definitely going to people I follow on Linkedin, but I think one of the biggest things that specific to the SDR role was, I know this is for for strppresion appreciation weeks. I just want to point out that I can't if I had to take one big thing away that helped me in my career so much and help me move up. Besides doing, you know, in a talk referring to what I said today, is understanding in and learning how to leverage your data. Like I think that was one of my first things that I did, is I took the time and took sales force, or it could be whatever cre under using your take reporting courses and and get really, really advanced at it. That will apply to every single role you go to, marketing, sales, sales operations. I'm telling you, if you understand how leverage the...

...data, it's a game changer of how you can implement your strategies. The amount of people that I've talked to speak to just you know you're speaking with leadership like you become the go to person for reports and dashboards and leveraging data, and that's a great way to stand out. But also it really will help you excel in your role and understanding ways in and wait strategic initiatives that you can run for your team by leveraging the data that you have in front of you and see understanding like what's working and what's not. So what? That's probably one of the biggest things I hone in with my team is I make a requirement they take certain reporting courses when they on board. Hmm, I like that. I like that. I like that switch around on my question. Yeah, I can answer a question, but it was something that would just said an I like you like people. For people I fell. I mean obviously for podcasts. You Know I love Pavilion, of course. You know incredible organization sales and engagement podcast is something I listened to very, very often in sales hacker podcast. You know, those are ones I highly suggest. I'm definitely big podcast listener. So I leftly, a lot of great leaders have come on and like such as you know, Josh Braun I one of the biggest leaders that I follow in terms of following how his outbound I'm very passionate about outbounding and I think he has a great methodology and framework in Jason Bay as well, of how how you approach companies and making it a better customer experience as well. I love it. I love it what goes on in the Jason's Road aheadphones music wise on spotify or apple music or wherever you tune in. Oh Man, I actually I'm a big s baby. I mean I was born in the S, but I love, I love me some s music. I don't know, Oh, I just very it's always so positive. So this is very I don't know it's old score or not, but you know, green day, blink on hundred and eighty two. I love some old goal, you know, old school hip hop and it. Those are definitely things that the get me pumped up in the morning. So I like, love it. I like it. Favorite piece of sales tech that you work with? Who? Favorite? PEEVUS? Hmm, I mean I think our reach is definitely like I love you know, or sales off you know, there's a lot of groove. You know, I'm leveraging a bunch of them right now, but I think that's if you understand, I had to leverage it in the right way. It's it's incredible and just coming from the world of when I started as a video at these did not exist, or or least we didn't have I didn't have it, I didn't have access to it. So I just laugh when I look back of like how did I even manage my day? So even if it's just a way of you know, and there's a obviously a right way to use those tools, but even if it is a way just to help you stay, you know, prioritize your day and stay structured, because I think giving yourself structured your days crucial. So I use it as like almost a reminder system of when to do things. Doesn't always have to be just saying like giving you yeah, it's help will giving you a framework of what to say to wish person. But even if it's just using it as a reminder system...

...of prioritization, is is incredible. So I love, Love, love, and just seeing how much those tools have evolved is incredible. All right, just my last question for you before we get to you know where we can find you and in and ask more if people want to connect with you, is who in your network would you like to see next come on the pavilion podcast? Who? That's a great question. WHO TO COME ON NEXT? I mean she's already been on it, but I think I've learned so much from her. You know lge from who you know from pavilion. You know herself. I've learned honestly, she's been such an incredible advisor to me. I go to her pretty pretty often to get her insights on things. So I think getting her being such a great leader in her building out pavilion itself. She can't go on to thelion podcast enough. I feel just a wealth of knowledge she has in her approach for building out just I love her approach and building out a culture for company is just so FA is so incredible and that's something that I tried to to match from my company. So I think some people you know Laura Guerra, but we call her alge. She's the VPA growth for for pavilion, but someone that I admire as well. LGE's a gangster and she's great. Yeah, I agree. Couldn't have her on enough when our LA chapter head. So I know her. She was one of the biggest reasons, like how I got so excited about pavilion when when it was very small and then it just blew up and now it's this and Megaforce, you know, to be reckoning with, which I love. Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great recommendation. Well, Jason, I appreciate you coming on, appreciate your kicking off bdrus there appreciation week. I've read some really tactical advice of the career framework, both for leaders and for the reps themselves. If people want to connect with you, if they've questions, if they are interested in working at Adobe, whatever it might be like, what's the best place for them to hit you up? Yeah, Lyndon is always great. Feel free to reach out and you know, if you need a pick me multiple times. I don't mind. I know it's you can get nowadays. It's hot. You get so many messages sometimes. So definitely, if I don't, don't. If I don't respond immediately, don't. I don't mind falling up like honestly, that that's helpful. A lot of times stand out. So linkedin is great. I'LL BE I'll be checking that out. Always happy to give advised the answer any questions cold I appreciated Jason. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. I appreciate it. Part that episode was brought to you by six sense, powered by AI and predictive analytics. Six sense helps you unite your entire revenue team with the shared set of data to achieve predictable revenue growth. Again, hit me up on Linkedin. My name is Tom lemo. I work over a gone would love to hear your feedback in until next Monday. Will be back them with another episode. Get after it.

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