The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 107: The Sam Jacobs Origin Story with Revenue Collective / Pavilion

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 107: The Sam Jacobs Origin Story with Revenue Collective / Pavilion

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday) series hosted by Tom Alaimo 

Thank you everybody thank God it's monday. Welcome back to the Pavilion podcast. I am your host Tom Alamo. They call me Tommy Tahoe and I'm excited to come at you with episode one oh seven today. This is the podcast where revenue leaders come to learn the tips tricks, the tactics that they need to be successful in their role and get to the next level. So let's get into today's episode. Before we do that, let's give a quick shout out to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by drift. More than 50,000 businesses use drift to grow revenue and increase customer lifetime value faster drift, helps their customers align sales and marketing on a single platform to deliver a unified customer experience where people are free to have a conversation with the business at any time on their terms, learn more at drift dot com. So for today's episode, we're gonna do a something a little bit different. I actually, if you didn't know, I've run my own podcast outside of Pavilion and Revenue Collective called Millennial Sales and I had the SAm Jacobs on the podcast a month or two ago and we talked all about his origin story coming up in sales in leadership, being a C. R. O. Multiple times before Founding Revenue Collective, which is now Pavilion. And so this is that conversation and you know, I think you hope you're really going to like it. You might have heard SAm talk a little bit about the origins of Pavilion on episode 100. We did a super long episode where we talked about the origins and we talked about, we had guests come on that were there from the early days, but this is really getting to know SAM on a more personal level. And my favorite part of it is getting to know about the simple list that he has for, you know what qualifies a good day, the good day she is what he calls it. So I think you're really going to enjoy this. Get a more intimate look at sam behind the scenes. Find out more about how he runs his day, how he runs his life, his inspiration for starting this great company. I mean, just get to know him a little better. So without further ado, let's get straight to my conversation with Sam Jacobs. All right, Sam Jacobs, Welcome to millennial sales. Good morning. Good morning Tom How are you? I am doing outstanding. How are you? I'm doing another beautiful day in New York City, overcast skies. But it's I was looking at the weather forecast next week. It's gonna be in the 60s. So we've got our eye on spring. Nice. I was in, I was in new york last week. It was some family birthday celebrations that we were doing and I stopped for the first time at Ivan Ramen. I've never been there. So you haven't, you know? Have you heard of it? No. Okay. Okay. He's got this cooking thing on chef's table on netflix and yeah, it was awesome. I don't know if you're into roman at all, but I'm, I'm a home body. So I stay within like, you know, three square blocks of where I live in the west village and everything outside of there is probably, It's just, it's San Francisco is just as close as anything, you know, 18th Street. Okay. Okay. I got you, I got you. Cool man. Well, I'm excited to have you on the show. There's a lot of different topics. I want to get into. One that really stuck out to me is your love of music. And I was, I was going through your linkedin like at the way, way, way bottom of it is something called the annex group. So, you know, after a year or two it looked like of being in, you know, finance and maybe as an analyst, you started your own like production company uh here you talked about that. It was a well yeah, I went to you via underground university of Virginia and when I was there it was, You know, I was graduate, I graduated in 1999, which was the 1st.com boom and everybody was starting companies and there was, you know, fever in the air and I went and moved up to new york to be an investment banker. But I had all these friends that were musicians and I just had this dream, you know, we were, I don't know, listening to too much punk rock and reading too many books about David Bowie and brian Eno or something like that. But we have this idea that we're going to go back to Charlottesville after after a year and get a farm and we're going to live on a farm in a commune, and there's going to be like a recording studio in the basement, we're going to make records. And this was at the time. Again, these are very specific references, but there was like a collective called Elephant Six. That that was came out of the south where there's a band called Neutral Milk Hotel. And there was um there was like matador records and there was merge records, which is out of out of north Carolina. So there was like these families of indie rock musicians that we're putting out amazing music. And so we had this idea that, you know, we would be that for Charlottesville, we would move back to Charlottesville. We did start it and it was called An X Records and it was a record label that was supposed to support this group of musicians that were all my friends were going to quit our jobs, moved to the this farm in case with Virginia, which is what we did. And it was a great lesson in my life. I call it lessons in humility and poverty. I also call them the bad old days instead of the good...

...old days. We were dirt broke, absolutely broke. My rent was 400 bucks a month, many, many times Leading up to, you know, the first of the month, I did not have $400 and I did not know where it was going to come from. We used to have my this guy used to work at a bagel shop and he would get we would bring back free bagels and sometimes he would bring back cream cheese but sometimes he wouldn't. And so we would do this thing that we had called a bagel salad sandwich was just a bagel with a bagel in the middle. And that was that was that was that was you know, one of our staples. So you know, I did that for for a while and I've always had a love of music but um I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't really honestly have the work ethic. I didn't have the connections. If you're going to start, you know, get started in the music industry. You probably start in new york or L. A. Or Nashville. You probably start managing bands first before you try to start a record label because record labels pretty capital intensive. But you know, the point of the record label is you are paying for people to make music and then you try and distribute that music to retailers. So it was also, you know, of course, 1999 incredibly poorly timed. It was the dawn of mp three dot com and people started burning cds. So, you know, it didn't work in any direction, but it did work in teaching me that I didn't get to be whatever I wanted to be, just by snapping my fingers and that, you know, whatever I wanted to be, I was going to have to put in hard work. So, from that perspective, it was great from the perspective of wasn't successful, it was absolutely not successful. And I guess the other part of it was that I realized after I quit my job, and after, you know, me and this band moved into this house that the band just wasn't very good and that was also a, you know, a bummer of a realization, with if you're trying to support a rock band and the drummer can't keep time, you know, doesn't have rhythm, that's an important part of being a drummer is having rhythm, and if your drummer that doesn't have rhythm, then maybe the band that's that drummers and isn't going to be as good, So I I did that, it didn't work. I moved back home to live with my parents, I set up my record, my record management company, my artist management company in the basement of my parents house, you know, my dad at first it wasn't sure that he wanted me to move home, but then he he ended up liking it. And then ultimately, what happened was I moved back to New York in 2003. And that's when really things that going from a professional perspective, because that's when I joined a company called Gerson Lehrman Group, which was a rocket ship, which went from 20 million when I joined to 300 million when I left, they'll probably do anywhere between six and 700 million and they are are this year, and that was like the beginning of my career, after shutting down the record label. So, you know, you're doing the record label stuff for, you know, a couple of years and it sounds like you learn that, you know, a lot of lessons one being, you can't just snap your fingers and be good at something, right? So you're in this point where you come home, come home to live with your parents, your, you know, your dad broke, you're probably feeling defeated, where is your head at? Like, why did you join that company? Right, because I imagine you're probably thinking, hey, I want to do something that I can get good at and it might take me some more time. But I want to kind of follow a more traditional process of like learning the skills and then getting good at it. So like what drove you to that company? Well, I mean honestly I wish I had a better answer for you. The thing that drove me to the company was that my friends that I went to U. V. A. With that are all now, you know, we're all in different places in our life to put it to put it mildly. But so my friend Jim Sharp who's he's the ceo of a company called of entry which is a virtual event and kind of event management software business. And I was actually speaking to you know, before we got on this podcast and he was an early employee at Gerson Lehrman Group. And so when I said I was just networking, saying, hey, you know, I'm looking for a job up there at that point, my background look pretty non traditional in the sense that like I had one year of sort of middle market investment banking, you know, and I wasn't working at Lehman Brothers, I was working a company called Stern Stewart and g l ju just was, you know, one of the great things about early stage company that has product market fit and is growing really rapidly is that they have the opportunity to hire you know what you might call athletes like you know, swiss army knives, people that are really don't yet have like a fully developed function but are smart and intelligent and you can do good things if you put them in if you give them the opportunity. So they were growing really quickly. I wanted to move to new york back to new york. Jim got me an interview with alexander saying I'm on the ceo you know one thing led to another, I was there 7.5 years came in at the ground level, ended up running a bunch of different product lines for them and managing big teams all over the world and it was a lot of fun and yeah and then and that was one chapter and then the next chapter was really the end of those 7.5 years and that was that was really you know, GlG was was I guess one part of the beginning, but the real beginning for my career and for my development was when I left the L. G. And that's...

...because jodi was so successful and so profitable. This was not the era of like burning a million dollars a month to try and take market share. GLG was generating more cash than the new to do it. And so as a mid twenties late twenties person, I was getting paid way more money than I frankly deserved and I didn't have a concept for it. And so what happens when sometimes you have like that level of early success Is that you get a big head and you think that you've got a little bit more credibility or clout or expert experience than maybe you really do have. And what happened was that my mentor ended up leaving the company, I got a new boss, the new boss did not like me, we did not get along and I was basically forced out of the company in 2010 after 7.5 years and which is totally fine. But I and then that was that was really the biggest inflection point because two things happened at that point. One is that I was forced out of this super successful company and really had to reset and figure out what I wanted to do. And at that point I could have become like middle management at a startup, like maybe senior director level or something like that, or um Go away earlier stage and be part of senior management. And I decided that I just I just didn't want to be middle management. I just didn't want to be part of like a 300 person company and be a director at a 300 person company. I wanted to be at the top, even if it was at the top of a tiny little thing. And so and I likened it to high school football where, you know, my junior year, we went to the state finals, but I didn't play very much and my senior year we were six and four and I don't think we made the playoffs, but I played every down of every game, you know, every special teams started on defense was all district blah blah blah. And I obviously would prefer my senior year in my junior year because I just want to be in the game. You know, I want to I want to be on the field. I want to have my decision to be a consequence even if there somewhat smaller stakes. So I went to a super early stage company after leaving and I took a massive, massive pay cut and I also was going through a divorce at the time. So all this money that I had made through, you know my time at G. LG basically went to the lawyers and went to my now ex wife and that was another you know as um as they say at the Apple store it was a hard reset. Yeah that's got to be a you've had a couple of those points of just like total reset right? Even if like those first what 10 15 years of your career in both of those cases like what's the self talk? Like how do you how do you get yourself like back up on your feet when you know all that stuff is going on? I mean it's not good you know it's not fun because obviously everybody wants all of their whole life to be up into the right, you know they want everything, they want to be, everybody wants to be one of those super special, amazing people that doesn't have any setbacks but so that's kind of part of it which is, there's a bunch of different like realizations that you have and one of them is that as you reset, you realize that like you're back to the beginning again and that that feeling of thinking that you're back at the beginning of whatever journey that you were on. First of all, it's not true but because you're developed, you have experiences now and everything, every bad experience is probably better learning and better insight than a good experience and then you just constantly have to figure out like who do you want to be and for me I just, I mean you know, I need to work so I didn't really have a choice in terms of whether I had a job or not, there wasn't self talk that was required to, you know, get me to interview for for jobs or help me find a job, but in terms of like the type of job or the type of opportunity, you know, you can't fight your nature as sort of the bottom line, you know, like the whatever, the frog and the scorpion, you know, parable, but so there was never a moment in which I mean, I don't know what giving up would look like. Maybe giving up for me would be working in middle man, that just wasn't going to happen, you know, it wasn't gonna happen because I just, I'd rather have my life be a series of 20 flame outs and still striving for something great, something special, something unique, then just accept what I would perceive to be mediocrity. So the self talk was just like, just get back on the horse, you know, And that's where I mean, and that's it was very difficult because it was get back on the horse, but it wasn't in a positive way. I wasn't I wasn't like, good job sam, you got um you know, I wasn't, I was like, basically it felt like a grind, you know, I was I was grind, I mean, I've been grinding for a very, very long time and um and it was difficult and you know what I mean, You just get up every day, try to find other things to make you happy, try to try to find the joy in the work, try to exercise, you know, one of the things I started doing in 2010 was running, I'd never really run before. Now I run, you know, 35 to 40 miles a week, like, so, you know, every setback teaches you something, which sounds cliche, but it really is true. And that said in the moment, all you have is your determination and your resolution and your your knowledge that like I really couldn't be anybody else if I wanted to.

So you know, just gotta keep trying. Yeah, I've always found just on that running point that life seems to be better when I have something outside of work that's like a process that's going on. So like I got into running a few years ago, did marathon some spartan racist things like that. And then like when I stopped doing it, it's like, oh man, everything else is like, there's not that out. Um so I'm curious like, have you found that to be true? And maybe just like as a more tactical question, do you listen to music? Do you listen to a podcast? Like do you go headphone free and you just like our clear with your thoughts when you do something like that, I listen to music unless I'm running with friends. And then so I, you know my friends and I do, we do speed, work, Wednesday nights, so we do like, you know eight times 400 which is, you know, eight times a quarter mile or four times five times a half mile. And then we do long runs on the weekends together and then the rest of the time I'm listening to music and I listen to dance music and you know, I like the beats and uh but the thing for me to your point about like for me there was a long period of time, I have this google doc that I keep where you know, I'm like writing different goals and I was convinced that the reason I wasn't successful in my own mind, you know, which was always telling myself I wasn't successful as a great way to not feel good about yourself. Um I was like, I felt like I had listened to actually john Barros came to speak at a company where I was like, Cros VP of sales and he's like, you know, getting in shape is not a goal, you know, wanting to bench press 1 85 15 times and then do 12 pull ups. That's a goal by april 30th, you know, this whole idea that like, you need smart goals, you need specific goals. So I had these super specific goals about like how quickly I was gonna run a half marathon and how much money I was going to be worth and how many pull ups I was going to do and it when I go back and read it because it's a google doc, so it's like years old at this point and I can go back and read it and it's just, it's just really a bummer to read. It's really unpleasant because it just feels like I'm just constantly being like, dude, you're not good enough, you know, you're not good enough, you piece of shit, why can't you do 15 pull ups? And so one of the things that really helped me recently, which is probably two years ago, I just threw out all of that crap for like my New Year's resolutions in my daily goals. And basically I have a list of seven things, I think it's seven, it used to be five, it used to be read, write exercise, being nice to other people, be nice to yourself, and by the way, if I didn't do all of those things, that wasn't the end of the world, But like, basically every day I was like, did I read something? Okay, let me pick up a book, Did I write something? Okay, let me journal. Did I go for a run today? Let me go for a bike ride, if I don't feel like going for a run, and then was I an asshole to other people and you know, am I being nice to myself? So that was that was 2020 those were my resolutions, and it was a lot easier and a lot nicer and it felt a lot better. And this year I've added two things, which is meditate and drink water. So it's like if I've done most of those things, then I had a good day, you know, if I didn't do any of those things that I didn't have a good day, but you know what, I can have a good day tomorrow and that for me, that framework of like, reducing the intensity of and sort of the, the tone, the tone of the conversation with myself, where it wasn't like you're not good enough, but more like you're doing your best, your great, let's give this a shot has had my results, my specific results over the past year, year and a half have been way better than before. That's so interesting. It's like when you, when you stop focusing so heavily on like as a salesperson, when you stop thinking about the quota so much, it's funny, that's when you have better conversations with prospects and and with customers. So as someone that, you know, I'm looking up on my wall and I've got these sticky notes of the goals that I have for this month and like locked in on, you know, podcast sales, you know, work out things like that. It could be a reminder to to me or to other folks that are similar that maybe when you just focus on like kind of the fundamentals because none of that stuff you said was making money or the things that you're probably doing the majority of the day when you're working, right? Maybe not being an asshole to others. So, um, it's just like you said, so, yeah, well you just said that about sales. Like if you just try to have like a two great conversations a day, you know, like as a salesperson, which doesn't, you know, again, and this might not work for everybody. This is just what works for me. The other part that I've realized, the thing that I realized is like, there is no, there's not one way to achieve whatever you want to achieve in life and there's not one way to be happy. This is just my way, my way for me didn't work saying, you know, I mean, listen, by the way, I'm highly quantitative, highly numerical, we have goals. I can tell you every number that happens within revenue collective. But for me thinking about it and relating it to the audience of like I'm a sales person, like there is a lot of pressure and like I need, I need 10, you know, I need 10 meetings a week. You know, if I don't have 10 meetings, what am I going...

...to do now? There's still a requirement that, you know, if you don't have 10 meetings, we can determine that based on your clothes rates. You need 10 meetings a week that you're just gonna do it no matter what, but just focusing on like, hey, I'm just trying to a good conversation. You know, if this person doesn't want to buy, maybe it's not the right time, but if I have a really good conversation, I'm genuinely listening and genuinely in the moment and I'm genuinely curious and empathetic. I bet good things will happen. I feel like that, that's pretty powerful stuff. It really is. It's really hitting home with me because I have what you're saying about the google sheet I have in notebooks right behind me on the bookshelf of like, you know, all the goals and in a sense, it is cool to see how far you may have come in years, but to another point, it's like, well you got to know that if you're doing your best, you know, that's really all that matters right and be able to be proud and to not be an asshole to yourself. So it's, it's something that honestly I'm going to be reflecting on. So I think that's a great piece I want to pivot a little bit because there's a static, if you scroll through five linkedin post, one of the people will say, You know, the average tenure of a VP of sales or cros 18 months. So everyone's heard that stat and I think that contributed in part to why you started revenue collective. But before we get to our c, like, I just want to talk about that staff because that's really disheartening for someone that's early in their career that has aspirations to be a VP of sales, a C R O to run a business someday that like, oh, you're gonna put in like 10 years or 15 years of like really hard work and then you're going to get to this place and then it's, you're probably gonna get fired in a year. So like, can we just talk about the issue at hand, like why is that the case? And, and like, you know, how do we, how do we solve it? But but I guess first, let's kind of frame the problem. There's a lot of reasons and I don't know all of them and I don't I think it's important to point out like, this is not um there's no, I don't have any antagonism, you know, like, I'm not mad at anybody. And just to the point tom like, my job, my career is, you know, after the record label, let's put that aside, Asterix, by the way, If you do scroll down. It's really funny because I have a joke in my linkedin profile, right? When I'm talking about the bands that I was in, and it's like, hey, if you're reading this far, you know, I don't know, I have like some easter egg in my linkedin profile because so thank you for scrolling all the way down. But the point is like 7.5 years of blog, 4.5 years at a place called Axial, 18 months at livestream, nine months at the mews, 10 months of behavior. So I am the poster child for this declining 10 year syndrome. Why is it happening? Part of it? Probably the biggest reason is just the, it's something about the world itself. So what does that mean? We all have shorter. I mean it sounds weird to say we all have shorter attention spans, but we all have shorter attention spans. We're all used to more instant gratification. We're all used to more binary outcomes. I hate to, you know, whether it's, it's not about cancel culture, but it's just about making snap judgments based on limited information and making them with strong degrees of conviction that are unwarranted. And that's just like how that's one part of how the world is that the world is disassembling and reassembling more quickly than ever. And that's particularly true in the labor market because companies themselves feel the need to adapt to rapidly changing circumstances and they don't feel like they have the ability, they don't have the time. I don't think they feel to be patient. So they feel like the thing if it if it either works right away or it doesn't. So I think that that's pervasive in the world in humankind these days, regardless of the labour market, then if you zoom in on the world that we inhabit of, you know, the surge of venture capital and private investment into private companies to help them grow more quickly. I think you see that all of that is exacerbated and that's exacerbated because maybe they would say like the nice way of framing it would be like in the old days companies grew more slowly and so you had time to acclimate your senior leadership to different phases of growth. But if you're growing super quickly, you are moving through stages of growth that might have taken years, that are now taking months. And so you're more quickly getting to the point of a specific individuals uppermost level of you know what they called it, like the peter principle, like their point of incompetence. And so perhaps because of this rapid growth, we are moving through these phases more rapidly and we need to replace people more quickly because we're entering different stages of company growth more quickly. I tend to think that that's I'm skeptical that that's true, but it could be true, I think fundamentally people have lost. I just, you know, to that point, if even if it's not true, they believe it to be true, what people believe to be true. And, and specifically Ceos who are very, very nervous about making sure that their company becomes the beautiful company that they all hoped it would be. And venture capitalists is that you need to make decisions quickly, you need to be decisive. And if something is not working, you make the call quickly. And that, I mean, there's a...

...bunch of reasons, so those are some of the reasons the consequence of all of it is that, um, but and then let me say one last thing fundamentally. Additionally, the reason that it happens particularly in revenue functions is because I do not believe that people have a full appreciation for how companies make money and as a consequence they think, and we play into the sales. People play into it, you know, by being the highest paid people at the company nominally, you know, 11 or two quarters and having the highest ot to have, having the highest on target earnings. But I think that, you know, we live by the sword, die by the sword. We come in negotiating for really, really high cash compensation packages. And the implication is that sales is the thing that makes the company money. And I don't believe that it is, I think that sales is one part of what makes the company money, but the company makes money because there's a great product that people really like. There's a great marketing team that tells lots of people about it and creates opportunities and then the sales people turn those opportunities into money, but that life cycle is not specific to sales. And so people, people think that it is. So people think if we're not making money and I just hired this expensive salesperson. The reason we're not making money must be because I didn't hire the right expensive salesperson. Let me go out and find another expensive salesperson. All of those factors are conflagration or interacting with each other. And I think that, I mean like you said, that's part of what I'm doing with revenue collective is trying to reset that, but I'm not just trying to reset it by like helping TPS or sales get fired less per se. I'm also frankly trying to help people think about their compensation differently because you know, I've talked to a lot a lot of sales leaders, they're like you know, my O. T. My O. T. E. S. 400 my O. T. S. 500 you know, and we don't pay that revenue collective and they might think I'm taking a pay cut to work at revenue collective. I'm like well Maybe, but I'm also not going to fire you in 18 months, you know? So for example like the revenue people, every executive at revenue collected has paid the same, which is you get a base salary and then you get a 20% of your base salary is an annual bonus at the end of the year. If you hit your goals, the sales pitch, you know, L. G. R. Sales leaders paid like that. Carly del our VP of marketing paid like that. Everybody's paid like that. And that's very controversial right? Most sales, most sales leaders are paid 50 50 50% based, 50 even, you know, you're paid like that way you're an A. E. Maybe that makes sense. I think it probably makes more sense. But when you're a leader of an organization trying to scale revenue and your and half of your money is paid in quarterly commissions, just that just doesn't it's just wrong. It doesn't make sense. It's not how you're not gonna get good decision making from people that are trying to hit a number for a quarter. So they can get a really big check. You're gonna get a good decision making when you pay people the right level of base salary so they can live comfortably and they can make long term decisions for the company, which is what we want them to make anyway. Anyway, that is a long rambling answer to your question. But you know, those are some of the reasons why tenures is so short. So like is this a is this a bad goal or just the wrong goal for someone that's in there say mid late twenties that you know, we know that it's going to take however long it takes to get up the ladder to the VP of sales or C. R. O. Knowing that the majority of maybe maybe the majority is wrong. But in my mind it looks like the majority of tech companies are really kind of like treating things like the problem and there's that that minority like maybe revenue collective that are seeing the long term vision, is that the wrong goal? Like how do we, how do we, how do we, you know, defend against this? It's not the wrong goal. You have to adjust and modify your goals. And again, I I doubt this is not at all a veiled advertisement for for the business that I run. It's just like the reason that I do what I do is for this reason you have to rethink what your career means, like you have to just redefine because because in the old days you got your identity from working at a really successful company and being with them and they were successful and you were successful and you let your identity bled into that, and I think the future is that you have to think of yourself much more like a professional athlete, like a professional musician, which is that you are aligned with, You know, almost like project-based work, you know, because I guess my point is like, I'm not sure that 17 months is the end of the world, Like, I don't know that I want to work places more than a year and a half. I want to work at revenue collected more than a year and a half, but like, you know, did I want to work at livestream? Problem knows that was the right time to leave. It's okay. The point is that, like, the compensation needs to shift, that's the point. And, and it doesn't just mean, doesn't just mean go up, It means like, listen, we're all going to be on our own, you're going to be on your own, you're gonna need a community, whatever you're gonna need something, whatever you call it. Community Safety net infrastructure, you're gonna need resources that are your resources, they're not, they don't belong to the company, right? The other thing is like, yes, companies will support you and invest in professional...

...development, but your career is more than ever your responsibility and you're going to have to figure out how to build a career. And that means that also in addition to that, that means that, like, so that might be okay, It's still going to be a good thing to be a VP sls it's still going to be fun to be a leader and to lead a group of people and obviously but one of the but you're gonna have to get good at a bunch of different skills that maybe didn't expect. So, first of all, we're gonna have to rethink compensation because again, if you're going to be fired every 17 months, then we probably need to make severance a meaningful part of your compensation package and you probably need to negotiate it in advance, right? So that you can say, listen, I don't mind, because the reason that it's the problem is that the disconnect between the value creation and the compensation, right? So here's my favorite example, let's say you're doing two million and a r r early stage company and you're you're the new VP sales and you help them go, this company goes from two million to 10 million and then at that point feels like maybe you're in over your head or the ceo has lost a little bit of confidence on you and they ask you to leave. So, okay. Is there a meaningful difference between two million and 10 million? Is that the same thing is between 10 and 18? No, it's not the same at all. Right. Two million is not a company or it is a company, but it's barely a company. It's it's a kid that's like just learned to swim. Like you throw them into the deep end. Maybe they'll get to the edge of the pool, maybe they'll drown. But there's a tremendous amount of risk in a $2 million company And a $10 million dollar company. Especially recurring revenue, especially if you don't, if it's not just one customer, but you've got lots of customers, those are pretty hard to kill their pretty hard. That's pretty much a company now. It might not be a huge billion dollar company, but it's a company, it's a thing, it will exist for an extended period of time. And if you're part of the team that helped do that, yeah, Whatever money you made in your cash compensation does not really relate to the equity value that you helped create. And if you are there a year and a half, the most of your equity did invest. You know, you hit the cliff after a year. If you got fired, you didn't get anything at all. So you're 17 months into a 48 month vest. And then if you leave, of course the tax laws are terrible. So you probably don't have the money to exercise anyway. And if you do exercise, you don't, it's still a lottery ticket, but you're out all this money in taxes anyway. So the point is like, It's not the end of the world that people's tenure are shrinking, but we need to rethink the compensation. Maybe there should be milestone payments. That's one of my favorite things, right? Like, Hey, when I, if I'm joining it to pay me what everyone to pay me, but when we get to 10 million, I would like an additional $200,000 cash bonus. And the point that I'm trying to instill into people is that the thing about equity is that the point of equity is that once in a while somebody gives you a ton of money, right? Whatever a ton of money is for $150,000.700,000 million bucks, two million bucks, right? That's why we do equity. That's why you have equity and anything you do that. It's the chance that that will happen. So is equity meaning ownership, You know, the right to purchase common shares at the bottom of the cap table? And a company, Is that the only way to create a lottery ticket or some kind of chance or probability that somebody will give you a bunch of money? No, it's not. There are other ways to do it. So let's rethink what those opportunities are. And let's create structures that map the value that we create and the risk that we take on in our personal career, to the likelihood of getting a chunk of cash. And those things can be like equity, even if they're not. So for an example, You know, the last place that I worked full time, I've negotiated 12 months severance paid in one lump sum. So I was there 10 months, you know, and they're doing great. God bless them, good people. That's not the point. The point is that When I left, I got 12 months of my base salary paid in one lump sum. And that's Basically the same thing as a liquidity event. I mean, it is a liquidity event. It's just not a stock-based liquidity event. And if we can think about more ways of mapping risk to reward and value creation, then maybe 17 months isn't so bad, but 17 months is bad under the current terms of the deal. Yeah. Yeah, that that makes sense. I want to talk about networking for a second. I'd be remiss not to talk about that with, you know, you who don't know if I'd call you the king of networking, but maybe somewhere in that, in that realm, just based on your network and the community that you've created. You know, I've been a member of revenue collected for about a year now, and I feel like since I joined, I've noticed 37 different sales and marketing communities pop up, you know, whether it's the ones that are focused on Sdrs, whether it's, you know, a live event, like thursday night sales, whether it's, you know, other communities that are maybe more direct competition to you folks. Like, I'm just curious, like, if you take off the revenue collective hat for a second, I was talking with a fellow 80 last week and she was like, I'm feeling this lack of community, not sure what to join, there's all these things, I'm not sure like how to do it and, you know, trying to advise on that, but like, if there was, if there was...

...someone in sales listening and they wanted to get, you know, involved in a community of some sort, like how do you advise, like where they go? And then the second step is like, how do you make the most of that community without it taking up six hours a day, Like messaging people all day long and, and all that stuff? Well, you know, I have a clear conflict of interest when I answer this question time. So let's get that out of the way. Most communities I see that are popping up are about the person that starts the community wanting to be more well known and uh, it's really about them as opposed to other people and even some of the ones that you specifically named and that doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong with it, but they're about the specific advancement of X, Y, Z influencer that wants, you know, that wrote a book or whatever fine for me, I don't really, and it's funny that, you know, people like you think of me as like a great networker, the point of revenue collective is actually not community itself, like that's not the goal. The goal is not quote unquote community. We have a reason that we exist and that reason is not about community. The reason we exist is to help people achieve what they want to achieve in their career is everything I've just been talking about. So I would ask, what is the reason that this community exists? So that's the number one because in the absence of a good reason, they're not going to really have a road map because they're not, I mean, there may be the world map will just be wait for revenue collective to do it and then they'll try to do it too. But they also don't have resources because most of them are free. You know, So why does the community exists? What is the purpose of it for me? I want to I don't again like I don't need a community for its own sake. I don't need just more friends. What I need is help exactly what you just said tom which is like what's the goal here? What are we trying to do with my trying to be a VP of sales is not the right goal. How should I think about this? I've got 20 years or 30 years or 40 years of healthy work life left. What should I be trying to do? Like how much, how do I make sure that at the end of it, you know, if I want to be rich, I'm rich, if I want to have kids, I have kids. If I want to have a happy marriage, I have a happy marriage. If I want to travel the world, I've traveled the world because what you don't want to do is not know what's going on, not have a clear sense of direction and then you end up in 10 years and you're like stuck on America around and you're like, how did this happen? So the point of what I do, it's not about community, we call it community powered products and services. The point of what I do is called career enablement community is one of them is a means to an end. The end is your professional happiness. Like, you know, as a member of revenue collective, tom like you have a bunch of goals and one of the goals is like, hey, you want to increase people's awareness of Tom right? And you want to make sure that you're, you're increasing your expertise and that you're increasing your brand recognition. So great. So tom a limo is one of the most of the revenue collected podcast, right? I don't need to be the host of the podcast. Like I'm happy for you to be one of the host of the podcast anyway. So, so I would think about like if I'm trying to select a community, I would think what is the reason that the community exists and identify with that reason? Great. If it's a community for its own sake, I would be a little bit more skeptical. And frankly, if it's a free community, I understand the benefits of free, but I would be more skeptical too because for me, and this is just me. Again, it's like the thing we're talking about your career, like your career is going to be your responsibility and you're going to need to invest in it. And also when something is free, I know that I am the product fundamentally. Like I know that ultimately there's going to be overly sponsored or the only way, you know, it's like if they want to make money from this thing, there's going to be sponsored, if they're going to be sponsors, I'm going to get spammed by SDRs, but all of that is frankly secondary to like the fundamental question of community is not the reason, you know, community is an input into an outcome. What is the outcome that this, this experience is trying to achieve for me and I like, and if I can answer that clearly and identify with it, great, then you should join it. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious in terms of general networking and maybe the answer is different as a ceo that it was as a sales leader. But how much time or energy do you spend every week or every month into networking? Right. Like aside from all the other things you have to do, but connecting with new people and setting up a zoom coffee or talking to the person that you managed five years ago or whatever it might be. Like if you're as a sales leader, let's say, or even as a salesperson, like how much time is enough? I almost feel like sometimes I don't do any and then sometimes I do too much and I failed to strike this balance well. Um it's a good question. I mean I spend a lot of time but I don't think about it as networking to be honest with you. I think about is helping me because I spend a lot of my day on the phone with other members of revenue collective or sometimes people that aren't members, but just trying to give them advice or help them or talk to them about something. So for me, I don't like, you know, I'm not I'm actually kind of introverted, it's not like I'm super extroverted, I interact with people because I want to help them. That's and I know it sounds probably don't know fake, but it's not fake. Um it's real. And so I guess I would say to answer...

...your specific questions, you should spend a certain amount of your time talking to people every week in a professional context that don't work at your company, whatever that means for you, You know, and that could be through communities like ours or other communities. It could be reaching out to people on linkedin, It could be just making sure you have a spreadsheet of all the people you've ever worked with that you really like, and you know, making sure you email them every quarter. But I do think that you need to because of the fact that we're changing jobs so often, like your job is not going to be all of the things, it's going to be the thing for now and you need something that is work related that is about, but is ongoing, you know, is is your stuff, it's not, doesn't belong, you know, doesn't belong to the company, it belongs to you, it's your network, it's your development, it's your advancement. So yeah, and you know, something that you talked about a minute ago and when you brought up, you know, doing the Revenue Collective podcast and, you know, a theme that I'm seeing from you is is consistency, right? Like whether it's running, you know, every day or however many days a week that you're out there whether and when I took over the Revenue Collective podcast, he said, hey noon sales hacker podcast in 2000 and 18 and I've never missed a week or maybe you missed one. I don't think you have. And you know, you're talking about that, you know, with your daily thing of, you know, did I treat others well myself well, things like that. So I see that as kind of a superpower for you. I'm curious if you, if you see it the same way and if, so maybe if you could elaborate on that a little bit of the power of consistency and just doing that little bit every day or every week and how that compounds over time. Well, I it's funny because I think of myself as incredibly inconsistent, so I'm a bad judge, maybe I'm a bad judge of character. I uh yeah, well I don't have anything. I don't know if it's a superpower. I know that I need I need structure in my life. That's I guess what I would say, like I have lots of different schemes and systems to just because I, you know, my biggest fear is just like sitting is wasting my life. So I want to know that. Like how do I know that I didn't waste it? How do I know that I spent that I did a good thing, you know? And I wanted to be, I want there to be enough structure because I think one of my superpowers. Well, I don't know if it's a superpower. Something I believe in very is that if you can identified the key questions and then answer them before they appear and when they do appear you don't have to debate. So it's like, I don't have to wonder at the end of the day, I have this literally, it's called the good Day sheet and it's like I put an X if I read, I put an X if I wrote, if I put an X if exercise, so I don't have to wonder about it. I don't have to be like, was today a good day or a bad day and I'm happier in my set. I'm like, well I, I did five of the seven things and I've decided that means it was a good day, so it was a good day and it's, you know that, I mean, I guess like suck talks about how he only wears blue sweatshirts or whatever. Like it's just like reducing the anxiety of having to, you know, having to define something amorphous lee. I don't know for me that gives me a lot of, a lot of flexibility. It's like, did I go for a run yesterday? Okay, great. Go for a run them. You know what's a good run run? A good runs four miles or more? Did I run four miles or more? No, it's 3.6. Okay, I want to do another 4.4. You know what that does? Is it just, it makes it so binary and it takes away like all the other things that might impact, like you might be having a great day and then you go on instagram and you see God knows what and where you go and your team slack channel and you see someone on your team just closed a massive deal and now they're doing better than you and the quota race or all the number of things that could go on. So it's like if you have this system that I control all these five things or seven things and if I do, you know all of them or most of them then like f off. It's a good day. It's a good day. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. I mean that's that's all I mean. And the thing that you said, which is like comparing yourself to others, I mean a lot of it is about, you know, releasing that like stopping that. Like that's not my good day has nothing to do with your good day. You we can both have good days or you can have a bad day. But one way or the other, it's up to me. Yeah. I love it. Um, one of the last questions for you mentioned reading is on that list on the daily. Some curious if there's any books that have heavily impacted you, any that you gift often to people that even whether you're reading them now or have reread in the last few years and gone back to it. Any, any book or books that stand out to you, The one that I've read this year that has really changed my life, which is just a spiritual journey I've been on. Is this book called The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. That's a good one. Have you read that? I just read it like, uh, probably over the holidays. Yeah, I love that book. I think about it all the time. So that's the book that I would recommend. It's just like a totally different way of looking at existence and consciousness and who you are and who your soul is. And um, if you're getting into leadership, I would...

...look at first break all the rules, which is just a very specific, you know, straightforward management book. And then the book I'm reading right now is by Tom Mac, if you called more from Less, and it's all about how capitalism has actually decoupled self from resource consumption. And it's about how we're using less of almost everything in the world. We're using less paper than we've ever used were using less oil, less aluminum, copper, steel, coal. And that maybe, you know, maybe we're not so terrible, maybe we just got to create more incentives to to do that. Anyway, that's like I'm taking a class and climate change and this was one of the books that they recommended. Nice. Yeah. That's something that is, uh, is definitely been top of mind and should be, is climate change? That was what more with less. You said more from less? More from less. Thanks. Cool. So I know we're getting wrapped up on time. I know that there's a lot of things that are going on. We've talked about revenue Collective quite a bit. I think, you know, I can vouch for personally, there's new, I think you mentioned what community based products, I think you called it like the rising executives, the Cros school, things like that. Maybe you could just touch on that just for a minute before we wrap up on, you know, some of the different things outside of like just a community of events and a slack channel that, you know, you folks are building to help people get the most out of their careers, whatever. That might be sure. We think about it in three ways. Period of peer learning, which is, you know what most people call community, which is, but it's not just slack or so all the different ways that people can connect with each other and interact with each other. The second is training and certification. And we really do think that to the point of rising executive program in the C. R. O school that we launch, we're going to announce five new schools basically in the next couple of months, CMO school rev up school CS school a masterclass with Jaco Van decoy from winning by designer and revenue architecture. There's probably another one and you can imagine that in the future they will be C. 00 school CFO School etcetera. But all of those are like longer extended programs that help prepare people for for what we're talking about, which is like how to have a career, how to make sure you don't get fired, how to make sure that you negotiate well, how to make sure that, you know, all of the different tips and tricks that you need to do to be good. And then the third thing is career services, that's just a big focus for us, which is helping people find jobs, helping people find talent, helping people find service providers, like coaches or accountants or lawyers or wealth managers, just all of the things again, like around, you know, the most of what you use revenue collective for is to be good at your job. But but then as we just have talked about the whole time, like there's lots and lots of times when you're going to be between jobs or change jobs and you're gonna need a framework to do that and so we invest a lot in that as well. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I can I can personally vouch that I used revenue collective as I was changing jobs last year. It was massively impactful in meeting new people, find new opportunities. I interviewed at a lot of companies and I don't know the percentage, but probably half of them were from people that I've met, the revenue collective or someone that introduced me. Um that was a member or something like that. So I'm grateful for the community. I'm grateful that you spent a lot of time with me this morning just before we wrap up any last words for those millennial sales people out there and then obviously where is the best place for people to reach out and connect with you after the show? If they're interested, If you want to email me, you can stand at roughly collective dot com. You can find me on linkedin linkedin dot coms forward slash forward in forward slash CMF. Jacobs. My parting words of wisdom are there's a talk with Vinod Khosla and larry page and he says, you know, I mean it's a very classic thing like you be you can do uh less than you think in a quarter and way more than you think in 10 years. And there's a competitive advantage in having a long term view. So I would encourage people have a long term view on their life in their career and not need instant gratification on everything right away. And if you do that, you will be you will have an advantage over the people that are short term focused. And then the second thing I would say is, you know, my life really began to change when I stop making it about me and started looking to help other people. And if you want to be a great quote unquote networker, if you want to accumulate power, you know, influence then the best way to do this to help other people because then you become somebody that can help other people and then now you're somebody that helps people, which is because you have influence and power. So, you know, there's a beautiful karma around just investing in helping other people and supporting other people and giving and the more that you do that, I think the more good things will happen for you. So just to knowledge bombs right there across the same. I appreciate you man, I'm gonna have to re listen to that and uh and take some, take some of that advice personally. Cool. Thanks tom. Thanks for having me. Thanks for hosting the Revenue Clock to show. I love this show and uh, you know, I enjoyed being here. Yeah. Thanks Sam. All right, thanks for checking that episode out. Let's give one more shout out to our sponsor. This episode was brought to you by drift, the new way businesses by from businesses. You can learn more and get the conversation started at drift dot com. You can hit me up on linkedin. My name is Tom Alamo,...

...work over at gone. I'm on social media at Tommy Tahoe on twitter and instagram and when my own podcast called Millennial Sales, that is really geared towards young salespeople and how they can grow a successful career in sales. That's it for today. Get after it this week and we'll talk to you next week, say something.

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