The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 8 months ago

Ep 78: Outsourcing Your Lead Gen w/ Amanda Moore

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Ep 78: Outsourcing Your Lead Gen w/ Amanda Moore cofounder of DemandZen

Part of the "Thank God It's Monday" Series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

All right, Thank God it's monday.Welcome back to the revenue collective podcasts. Your host Tom Alamo. This iswhere revenue leaders come to learn about the strategies, tips and tacticsthat they need to help to grow their organization. Thanks for joining me.Really excited about today's episode with Amanda More. Before we get to her.Let's do a quick shout out to our sponsor. So this episode is brought toyou by quote a path which is a commission tracking software built forsales operations, finance and accounting teams. Running commissionsand payroll has you running for the hills quota. Path is for you quota.Path helps organizations track and manage commissions and pay their teamsaccurately. And on time every time, keep your team motivated non target.Simplify your commissions at quota path dot com slash revenue dash collective.And give your reps the gift of transparency, I can say as a rep. We dolike transparency and we do like commissions. So let's get to today'sepisode. I've got a great episode here with Amanda More. Amanda is the cofounder of demands n which is an outsource lead generation and SDRorganization. And that had some massive growth in the last few years,especially with Covid as the world has changed. So we talk about herbackground, we talk about SDRs in general, you know, being underratedwhat it takes to be a successful str and and how to run that team and we getway into the weeds there. So without giving too much away. Let's just gostraight into my conversation with Amanda moore and all right, Amanda More.Good morning. Welcome to the revenue Collective podcast. How you doing? Good.Thanks for having me. Yeah, shout out to uh before we get about, you shout tonorth Carolina with apple heading there. It's like a talking to you. Yeah, it'sa billion dollar week for north Carolina. That's awesome. I've got uh,I keep hearing north Carolina pop up in this world of covid and remote work andpeople saying they want to move to either north or south Carolina. That'slike kind of a hotspot. So my friend is a realtor and I saw her on sunday andshe said that it's like a bidding war. She has all these buyers and as soon asthey find a house, it's off the market immediately, wow. Yeah. Good time to bea realtor in the Carolinas. Yes. Bad time to be one in san Francisco where Iam. Well, it's actually not great because if you don't have houses tosell then you have a bunch of unhappy buyers. Yeah, that's true. That's true.That's why, that's why I'm selling software because I can't handle themulti, you know, you're doing like the, to weigh the two way selling situationstoo much. There is a lot of benefit and selling software ever houses orservices. Yeah, so let's let's get...

...let's get into the services and whatyou're doing it demands. And so you created or co founded demands. Andabout 67 years ago, I I'd love to just here before we get into what you'redoing today and and talking about a little bit of the outsourced SDR model,curious just like what's the problem that you saw in the market at that time?Like why did you start demands it? So demands in. Um I combined my businesswith a former client of mine in 2014. I actually in 2008 or seven made thefirst cold call on behalf of my business. I had I had grown organicallyword of mouth Referrals and um the recession happened in 2008 and I waslike, I think I might need to make a cold call for myself. And so I reachedout to Bart Bartlett who was VP of marketing at a startup in Durham. Umand he basically hired me on the spot because that was a lot less expensivethan all of my competitors. He hired me on two other occasions. Speaking ofApple, one was a great acquisition purchased by Apple was a big data startup in the U. K. And the next was a storage startup purchased by um E M. C,which is of course is now Dell. And he started a digital consulting practice.So we decided to kind of join forces in 2014. I think I had seven employees atthe time and we're about 75 employees today. 100% remote. We've been virtualsince the beginning, neither birth nor I are for public consumption anymore Ithink. Yeah. And and it's an interesting, you know, business to beand I imagine like in the last 12 to 15 months with Covid right because you'reworking to outsource lead generation and scr teams and I imagine being asales leader and I let a sales team actually right as Covid was happeningof a S and it was mayhem like getting people to getting your team from fromin the office to to be remote. And yeah, I can only imagine for sdrs or folksthat are are driving leads that it was even harder because it's usually a morejunior role and a really challenging role may be the hardest role in sales.Like I'd be curious how your business has changed in the last 12, 15 months.I have to imagine people are bringing you off the hook to help. So I willanswer that question. But first, the problem that we solve, which I failedto answer is we deliver cells qualified leaves in the form of appointments andwe most of our campaigns are outbound and the problem is is not enough leaves,not enough pipeline, not enough cells. That's at the end of the day and thatincreased with Covid people. Were you struggling struggling even more todeliver qualified leads to their cells...

...people? And that's that's been aproblem. It's been a problem for years. Right. But but it has heightened sinceCovid. No events, no conferences. We have also, you know, during this timepivoted and found a lot of value and like virtual lunch and learns virtualroundtables. There's a lot that goes into it and there's also just a lotthat goes into managing remotely. And so I think a lot of people had torethink their strategy because they did high, you know, sdrs are traditionallyyounger, right out of college types of people and and going remote again,we've been doing it for the last seven years. It's not easy. We made everymistake in the book, but you know, because it's a grind, you've got tohave engagement, you've got to have management, you've got to have kind ofreal time communication with your team and it's not as easy as it sounds. Yeah,and we were talking a little bit before recording that, like, it's kind of likethe rise of the scr I felt like sdrs weren't getting much respect the lastseveral years and I feel like in the last year or two you're starting tohear more and more people talk about how much respect that they deserve.You're talking about how tough the job is, you know, they're getting, I feelmore training, there's more kind of thought leadership going out in thatspace that you see folks like, you know, kevin Dorsey is the first person thatcomes to mind just on linkedin as being someone that really just talks aboutthe sales, development, craft or morgan in room or folks like that. So I'd loveto hear you talk about you being in that world before. It was cool like howmuch, how tough of a job that is and how important it is. Well, it'sextremely difficult. Um and you know, are taken that is we are having maturebusiness conversations with primarily, you know, decision makers at the midmarket and enterprise and these are not the, you know, bells and whistleconversations. This is not the technical soup to nuts. These areproblems that are, you know, clients solve for people other people similarto the accounts that we call in on their behalf so that it's important totake an account this approach for that reason. But anyway, that's neither herenor there. In regards to why Sdrs are so fat valuable. It is a very difficultjob to find the right person, identify the right team within the rightorganization and then successfully get them to answer their phone and take ameeting with a perfect stranger. So some people can open doors and somepeople can close them and just because you can do wine doesn't mean you can doboth. So the, you know, the majority of Sdrs are hired and they grind it outfor about a year, year and a half and then they get promoted to an A and withthe pandemic, you know, and with teams going virtually and these being younger,less experienced people, they saw a huge decline in production and thatdoesn't scale for us. So we hire more...

...experienced kind of lifetime coldcolors if you will. And so we've seen a pretty big increase in businessthroughout this time. And so, you know, you don't want to talk about positivethings around the pandemic, but there are several things that have actuallycome out of this that have been that are moving in the right direction asfar as people working remotely. But it really has exposed how painful it is tonot have good qualified leads for your sales teams. So you think it's amistake just in general, like for the for the VPs of sales that might belistening or directors sales, like do you think it's a mistake that we haveit segmented that the most junior people are always the ones that havethe first interaction with the prospect or customer And it's the more seniorpeople that close versus doing it based on skill. It seems to just be a tenurething rather than skill in most companies. 100%. Or as my teenagerwould say 100 king, 100 king. That's very new. Cool word. That teenager,she's now king or queen. Okay, Okay. I'll have to write that down. Nextteenager used to use it. They'll be amazed. So why do you think that, like, do yousee any organizations do it this way? Like why? Why does it have to be thatthis way? Rarely? Um, it has. That's a great question that I'm not really surethe answer to other than the almighty budget. So the budget is allocated andthe sales reps and don't get me wrong cells, reps should absolutely becompensated for their efforts. It's not easy to close deals, but it's also noteasy to open the door. And oftentimes the SDR is busier in a more consistent all daymanner. You know, doing this stuff. I think that inbound people, I think thatthat young people absolutely can do inbound and that's a great way foryoung people to get their piece put in the door to see if cells is somethingthey want to do, whether it be SDR work or e stuff. But I think the individualshould be able to decide that for themselves and and based on theirability to be compensated for for it. You know, it's not, we're all notcreated equal. Some people can we have people on our team that can set 10 to15 qualified cold outbound meetings a week and that that we absolutelycompensate them for that and they have no motivation to go elsewhere becauseif they went elsewhere a in that role, they would be paid a lot less and be,you know, they're not looking to get into the I. E. Position. I mean, youknow, if I had to pick which I like best, I like the str role. However, Ihave to do both. You know, not as much cold calling these days. However, I dolove it. But you know, if I had to pick one, I would pick that because it's aneasier process to find the right person and generate that initial interest withthe right buyer persona. So no, within...

...the right organization and, and thenyou leave it to the other guy or about to to walk through the cell cycle,which can be a pain in the ass at times, you know? Yeah, It feels like a brokenprocess just in general of how sales structures are because you have theyoung people doing the SDR work and it might be great at it and then they getto be an A. And they're not good at closing or they're not good at openingand they might be good at closing, but you just don't know yet. And then thenext step, you have all these days that you just hire the best they eat to bethe sales manager and often here she is not a good leader. And so I almost feellike we're taking it all backwards in that we're promoting people to rolesthat they're not good at or hiring for the wrong thing and it's, it's all justbased on tenure and past performance that versus trying to optimize peopleand put people in the right seats based on their natural skill set. I wouldagree with you. And I also think that organizations heavily reliant marketingand, and usually bigger brands are pretty safe to assume that they'regoing to get good inbound leads based on brand recognition and marketingefforts. However, if you don't have that, a lot of our clients are startups,it doesn't work that well. And so even, you know, even though traditionally youthink let's hire this big marketing team and have them generate massiveamounts amounts of inbound leads. But if it's a new disruptive technology,it's something that people don't know about. They may not even be searchingfor that kind of thing. So the ads may never eat, Not even hit their screen.Say yeah. Do most teams that you work with at demands end? Do they, are theyoutsourcing all of like the vast majority of their SDR work with you oris it a compliment to what they have? I'm just absolutely, you know, it's amixed bag, but it's absolutely complimentary. So you know, we are moreof an extension of their internal team. Sometimes clients will hire us becausethey have so many inbound leads and they're sdrs are picking the lowhanging fruit and you know, like if you have leads in your sales force thathaven't been touched in two or two months plus, Then just turn them overto us and let us see what we can do with them and nine times out of 10 thatgoes very well because there's lots of stuff that isn't just responded to allfemales or one call. Yeah, I was formerly in the selling, you know,intended data and demand gin and it was wild how often you would talk to amarketing or sales leader and you said the last thing we need is more leads.We can't even follow up with the ones that we have today because theirbusiness has seen such growth. And so to your point rather than going out andhiring 20 new sdrs that, you know, five of them will turn out to be good or, orlike sales and the other 15 might not, or might not be a fit like go give itto the best cold colors in the business, which I imagine is who you have. I'dlove to, I'd love to meet some of the...

...people that work there because I'm nota great cold collar and that's just such a scale that I admire people thatcan just go after it all day long. And, And uh, I grew up in 10-15 appointmentsin a week. That's just so impressive. You know, it's pretty amazing to watchbecause we, so we've integrated Salesforce with slack. So every timethey set a meeting in cells and they put it into salesforce, it's slacksinto the meetings scheduled channel and they just started flowing through allday and there's all these emojis and GIFs and everybody's cheering eachother and it's really um Lynn Wick, who is our VP of Operations, has created anamazing culture to a, to your point on intent data. I wanted to respond tothat quickly. We love intent data. We started using intent data like sixyears ago with the big willow, if you may have heard of them, they werepurchased by Aberdeen but we would get it in a spreadsheet and like I foundthis crazy data storage project for one of our clients for Wells Fargo in likethis tiny little town in Ohio. And they had this big marketing arm there andthey had all this this video and marketing stuff that you know they hadall this data storage, you know they and so it was like wow this is reallyamazing. This turns a cold call into a warm call. So we use it as often aspossible. I'm constantly testing new providers but what we do with that dataand and this is so it's very difficult to monetize intent data digitally fromwhat my clients and they have told me so we take that data to your point weyou say abc company is you know in markets surging whatever you want tocall it for, you know blah blah blah in columbus Ohio. And then we go tolinkedin, it's not rocket science, it's just work. But you go to Lincoln, youfind, you know the person at abc company in columbus Ohio who would whowould be potentially looking for something like this and then you callthem and um we just did a case study and that's not too long ago with ourclients benefits um there in HR software and six cents which is an A. B.M. Intense Data provider. And um the results were amazing. It was like 1.6million and pipe to deals closed and this is just over a very short periodof time. So I think it's called the intent data. Yeah. No I think it's Ithink it's one of the greatest things to happen in in for like inside salespeople and for marketers in a while because it just removes all of the ifyou're calling someone and just hoping that they have a project right? You'rehoping that timing is always the toughest part of, of reaching outprospecting. So if, you know, like you just kind of pick, they used to kind ofcompared to like you just pick it up. Like it's a report that you found likeon the bus next to you, right? It's like you just happen to come acrossthis information and so, you know that, you know, Amanda has a project comingup or her team does, then it's like you're not going to say, hey, thisprovider told me you have a but like...

...you have that information and then thatgives you the confidence to at least know that you're talking to the rightperson or the right team at the right time. And it's just like can reallyskyrocket results. So I think it's a, it's an amazing technology. Zenefitshas a great marketing team and so they really tracked every single thing theyknow where everything is coming from and the deals that we got them into hadnot responded to any other form of legion. So no response to adds noresponse to emails, no response to anything. And you know, but theyresponded to a cold call and so, you know, you have to have all the channels,you have to have them. But but why would you not be calling people thatare signaling that, that they are most likely in the buying cycle for whatyou're doing? It got him into deals a lot earlier to than they would havegotten into like at the very beginning of the process. There's nothing worsethan getting in on a deal at the last minute. I had that call earlier thismorning. He was like, I've already talked to five other providers andsomebody mentioned that I should talk to you guys. So I only have 10 minutes.I'm like, well I just knew you were in market two weeks ago. I don't know ifthere's an intent data yet for for what you folks do. Usually it's like on that.No, there is absolutely. There is, yeah, there is. Yeah. So this is that this isthe craziest thing that's ever happened to me as far as intent data gays. Butthis should show everybody in the world that intent data works. So I, I got alead through our website and it was a perfect company for us and went throughthe cell cycle ended up closing the deal. But The day before that, I hadjust tested a new intense provider and I screwed up on my parameters. I madelike the company size like just like like 50-75 employees or something wonkylike that. And the one person that showed up in the report was the personthat came in through the website, wow, I didn't call her, I didn't reach outto her and she, she just threw her searching efforts. Found us. But I meanthat's, that's pretty powerful. I mean to have an experience that's legit.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the prospect, I told her about it and shethought it was super cool as well. So I know that she's gone down the intentdata journey as well based on that experience. Yeah, that's super cool. Mylast question, I know we're getting short on time is that I always askfolks, is for the revenue collected podcast, like there's so many ways thatthe members use revenue collective, right. Whether it's a connecting withothers, one on one or groups or slacks or God knows what. So I'm just curiouslike do you have a philosophy on, on just whether it's revenue collective orjust networking in general that has benefited your career to this point? SoI think hard work has played a major...

...role in it. But you know, I thinkrevenue collective is a great organization. I've learned a lot and Ilike to feel that I've also contributed. I had a call this morning with a girlwho was a member. She had posted something about, this is her secondtime hiring an sTR team and it's not going well and it's failing and youknow, and helped her to kind of diagnose some of the reasons that itcould be. But I've also just learned a lot from people and it helped me notreinvent the bill over and over and over again. Me and my amazing team whodoes more will inventing these days than I do. But yeah, it's, I'vegarnished a lot of great connections as well as just learning from it. Yeah,100 100 Queen daughter will be so embarrassed. Maybe I can post this toinstagram. Yeah, yeah, there you go. A tiktok even better. Hashtag Kathleenmoore. Oh man, this is awesome for anyone that wants to connect with, you,learn more about, you know, you or, and, or demands and what would be the bestplace for folks to reach out to you? Yes. Send me an email, a more a M R Eat demand zen. That Z E N dot com. I love it. Is that, uh, was that justlike obviously a play on words with demand gen? But is there any sort oflike, like zen philosophy going in there or am I over complicating? Well,I would say demand generation is anything but zen tom however we havemade it as soon as possible for our team. Yeah, I love it. I love it.Thanks so much Amanda. This is great. Yeah, it was fun. Thank you Tom. Allright. Thanks for tuning into that podcast. You can learn more about us.If you go to Apple podcast, you can subscribe, leave a five star review.You can hit me up on linkedin. I'm tom delay my work over at gone and one lastshout out to our sponsor. This episode was brought to you by quota path, quota.Path is the first radically transparent and and compensation solution fromsales reps to finance. Get started for free at dot com slash revenue dashcollective. We'll see you next monday piece season. Yeah.

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