The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 22: Maintaining Humanity as a Leader in High Growth Environments feat Onur Aksoy

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Ep 22: Maintaining Humanity as a Leader in High Growth Environments feat Onur Aksoy

Hello and welcome to the revenue collective podcast. My Name Is Casey, like Gordon, and I'm your host. Today I have the chance to sit down with honor actsoy. Honor is the regional vice president of data dog, and honor and I are going to talk about something a little different today. We're going to talk about how do you maintain humanity as a leader in a high growth environment? Now, high growth environment, really good, high pressure, you know situation. Being a leader I think of something that many of us strive to do, but being able to maintain and really hone and develop humanity during that process. It's not always easy, and so we're going to talk to honor about his experience and and share some on my own. Before we get started, I want to give a shout out to our sponsor, said O, Soo. Soo Soo is the leading sending platform. It's the most effective way for revenue generating teams to stand out with new ways to engage at strategic points through the customer journey. By connecting digital and physical strategies, companies can engage, require and retain customers easier than ever before. Thank you to send no so and thank you to honor let's get started. Hello and welcome to the revenue collective podcast. My Name Is Casey, like Gordon, and I'm your host. Today I'm sitting down with honor actsy. Honor is the regional by as president a data dog. He is coming to us from Hamburg, Germany, and it's going to be talking to us about how do you maintain humanity as a leader in a high growth environment. I think that high growth is always a good thing. Leadership always a good thing. Humanity not always the easy things. So I'm excited to sit down and to hear from honor today. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. It's a it's a great pleasure to be excellent. Well, yeah, I we've come to know each other over the past several weeks doing some prep for this and I've enjoy our conversations every time we have a chance to sit down, and I know that the the community will as well. So, to help kick us off today, I think it would be great if you can just situate us in. What is data dog? What is your role within the company and where are you in your growth trajectory? I think that you know, as I think about this audience, it's always helpful, I think, for people to self identify themselves in where you are in your own journey. That way they can figure out what information is is the most valuable. Yeah, yeah, so day to go, of course, found approximately ten years ago now. So we just celebrate a ten birthday last week. To just summarize what data dogs actually doing, we are the state of the arts cloud observability platform for any kind of infrastructure, logs, applications or security use cases in the cloud. And we meet myself. I'm managing the Central European region since two and a half years right now. I was the first man on the ground and in this region and started building this company out of my out of my kitchen, and now we are worldwide. We are run about twozero people. When I joined we were proximately six hundred worldwide. And Yeah, super proud of what happened the last few the last few years, and super proud of of the team and here in the Central European region, which which the phenomenal things within the last two years. Excell it. So we talked about that team. So you're the first, first man on the ground in in central Europe, and then talk to me about what your team looks like today. Specifically, I want to know how many people are on your team and I want to know what roles and responsibilities are within there, and then we'll get more into your role. But I always, I always love to hear about what teams look like. Yeah, I love to talk more about my team than about myself, to be honest. Let's let's start about like ...

...a true good leader. Yeah, I mean it's and I think we'll come to that case when we're talking about changing from a individual contributor to a leader. I think more important things come to come to the actual not to the background. But you concentrate on different things and that's that's the thing that we, I hope we will talk about as well case. But and the team itself looks like the following him. I have a five, five individuals in my team that are spread it in Germany, Austria and Switzerland today, and we are still growing. So they are spread in the German parts and also in the Zurich part in Austria. We have some some people in different roles. So over three countries actually, I have a team of five great individuals who are highly successful in what they're doing. Of course, the team was built over the last of the last two and a half years and we as a team, and this is something really important for me, we as a team act as as one as one company. We share the same the same, same ideas. We have the same standards when it comes to outward we have the same standards when it comes to our internal communication and, of course, methodologies and and sales strategies and methodologies that I'm using since since ten years. That makes it pretty easy to communicate quickly, but also to ramp up people quickly and get them into our sales motion. So I have a question on that. When you say that you know so you're the initial person that's joined. Over the past two and a half years, you've scaled from one person to five people and I think yourselves is six people on the team. How do you share that consistency, because I think that it's I mean, you make it sound really easy right, like we all have the same and that's it. We makes it easy to scale, but that is actually very hard because it's talent recruitment is is challenging, getting them on boarded while you're also growing, and so I'm curious what are some of those specifics that you've done when it comes to onboarding team members and setting standards across the the organization. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. See, so and totally. We actually more. Just just to get the strike we are approximately twenty people now in the Dota La, including seas, including customers, success managers. So only the team and Hamburg here we're on based as approximately six people strong. So actually we are not more than this, but if you if you break it down into the sales and team that we have, we are five plus another two. So it told, we are seven sales people here in this here in this bigger region. Coming back to your question, is he and that's that's one of them. I think one of the most complicated things as a leader to on board people quick and on the other side effectively. You have to have a playbook, of course, and the playbook is pretty straightforward. If you if you, if you want to put it that way, we have a so I personally have a metallology that I learned back in my BMC software times, and this methodology is pretty easy to follow, but it takes some courage and take some effort to actually implement it with yourself. If people are coming in the first thing that I'm trying to give them a structure, structure in their time management, structure in their actual sales, in their sales time that they will cut into pieces from week to week. So in Monday, for example, is absolutely reserved for pipeline generation. This...

...is something, this is something that I live for to have that holy Monday for people who who are coming in here and block their time on the Monday to actually do nothing else than follow up either on their leads, on their own good vito emails or on their linkedin emails to actually drive new customer new customer activities. The rest of the week is is, of course, basic activities and on Friday I try to guide people to actually prepare for the next on the other side, I mean, we are all in text bails. It's super important to understand actually what you are selling. So giving a lot of input from as ease or from the sales foundation itself, or giving some experience out of the last deals that that we have done as a team or where I was personally involved, is absolutely crucial for the success of people who are coming coming in here, especially when people come from different environments than the develops play where we are selling to architects or people from the cloud infrastructure. So a lot of elements, but the most important when it comes to onboarding getting people affective quickly is, I think, structure, time management, understanding the process, understanding the sales process in a specific organization, and my organization, since the last ten years we lived and I breathe the medic atodology, since since since I since I'm in sales, and this is something that I stand for. So getting the people up and running on the sales process, on the technology, learning quick from their peers. So shadowing a lot of meetings, shadowing a lot of calls is something crucial for people who are coming new into into this environment. Yeah, I want to to dissect a couple of the things you said, because I know that this is one of the biggest challenges and living in a high growth environment, by the time you're bringing on team members, you usually are underwater right like by the time you're able to hire somebody, you need them, and so you yourself as an individual contributor, prior you know, and then hopefully team leader. You're worried about your own pipe and you're doing your own work, and so how do you balance that, and so what I'm hearing is one creating a playbook early, and I think that that that can be challenging when you're a single individual contributor to focus on that structure because you're just in the moment trying to do your job. But if you start planning day one for what it looks like when you scale, that scaling becomes a lot easier. And this is a lesson I've learned the hard way and my past role is that you know by the time you need structure. It's almost monumental to go back and recreate it. So doing it from the onset is so important. The second piece you said was it sounds like you adapt learning styles to what people need. So you know that Monday, that holy Monday. I love that because one you're coming in, you're getting your head straight for the week. People operate their own ways, you know their own flow, but you're giving them that sacred time where there are going to be meetings, there aren't going to be demands from the organization. Then you said you have the playbook, so that's that's reading, maybe some video. That's them in taking it, but then the shadowing. That's a that's a very interactive way of learning, and so I think what we talk about humanity. As a leader, one of the things that you have to recognize is not everyone learns and operates the same way you do. You have to meet people where they are, and so what I loved about what you're saying is that it's a shared responsibility. Right, every member of your team is responsible for having people shadow them contributing to their growth, and I think that, you know, that is something I'm noticing as a shift in sales is this team mentality versus just individual kind of hustler towards a number, and I think that it is attracting and retaining a different kind of talent. When you say that we're a team that were all pushing towards something,...

I also think it makes the leadership of the team a bit easier and maybe a lot more fulfilling. So I'm curious of any of that resonates with with what I'm saying. They're no, absolutely, because you can summarize that in a perfect way. I do remember times when I was in sales and those and I was selling storage at hit taks, you data systems, which was my first job after the university. That people. That wasn't a real team, that wasn't real teaming. I mean everyone just had that quota, everyone had their own office. Sometimes even account managers had their assistant to actually to actually get the quotes out. So these times are actually over. I mean we collaborate, we many we collaborate on so many levels and this kind of team spirit is absolutely crucial if if you want to build a long lasting and really effective sales teams. From from my perspective, to get people communicating to each other and the shadowing aspect in the aspect of getting people onto different meetings in the first three or four weeks, is absolutely crucial for their start and on boarding efficiency. Yeah, it sounds if I can add there, it sounds like one of the ships you're noting is that it's let's to make the team customer centric, not quota centric, and the quote of should be the thing. That right, that's that's what we're all in this role because we are comfortable producing results. That's how we know we're going to be measured, but that doesn't necessarily define a culture. The results are one thing, the culture is different, and that's what I want us to dig into today, and you and I were talking that. I think becoming a sales leaders, a leader in any company, is interesting, but specifically a sales leader has a very I don't know, I let's talk about this. So with I found I was a really good individual contributor and then my leadership said, Oh my God, you're doing so good, you should lead a team. Yeah, and the same skills as being an individual contributor versus leading a group of individuals. It's different. Yeah, absolute and I know I skinned my knees on that, like the first couple of months. I felt looking back, I feel awful for my team because I was managing them the way I was setting expectations the same way I would set expectations for myself. Yeah, and sometimes that created an environment that I don't think was super flexible. I think didn't always meet people where they were and sometimes created expectations that I don't even know if they could they could actually accomplish because they were new. And so I just want to know your journey, like, were you on the leadership track or were you one of those that's like, honor, your so successful, let's give you a team. I need to be honest. The Casey Never, I never wanted to be a manager, like, id me either. Okay, we're in live together, so I never ask in my life for a management job. I was asked by my vp and also by my CR row at dynamics a couple of years ago if I would like to lead a team, and I remember it like yesterday, that they really ask me if I want to do this, and I was not really sure. I mean, everyone wants to be a leader at one point. From my point, there are some there are some people who just don't want to be managers or leaders because they just want to do their job and don't want to care about different people's development plans or or goals and life. Or, of course, you are also involved into private things when you when when you start managing teams, of course, and they really ask me, and I and I hear Joe Sexton's voice since since then, since that day, who asked me on the phone, Hey, honor, do you want to do this? Do you want to be a leader? And I didn't really understand that. Questioned that point and I said, of course I want to do this,...

...but from time to time you really understand what he meant when he asked me for want to do this because in my first year after after I was promoted to to a management role, it was my worst year in my career, and I tell you why it. It was such a shit in my operating rhythm and the way I was used to do my job and my manage at that time at EP dynamics is my Almas. I think we had a we had a rough time together and because it's in in my manager or his, his VP at that time at e dynamics, Jeremy, dug in and told me that this will be the worst year of your career because you will do a shit job in your first management year. That's okay. I wish I had that person in my life when I started managing, because I did not. Okay, and it have to be feeling aweful to not know that. No, I'm so glad that you had someone that said that. Yeah, he said to me this will be this will be a ship year for you, because, I mean, there are so many good people around you that did that job for the last five years and you are doing this. We're getting a little we're getting a little audio. I want to make sure that we have sure. Can you hear me? Okay, I can hear it, can see you. All right, guys, you're getting the real deal here, where we're connecting internationally over Wi fi. Is sometimes it's not perfect. So all right. So you hear from your your colleague, your boss, that says, Hey, this is gonna be a terrible year. Just buckle up, get ready. Not going to be pretty, exactly. And he told me that this year will be definitely challenging because there are some people around you who did this job for the last five years and you'll be the guy who does not have all the experience. You can be a great sales individual, but it's a whole different job. It's a complete different job to lead people into lead sales teams. The only the only thing that this has in common are the numbers and the deals that you have in front of you. So there are two ways to actually deal with that. The first thing is, and that's the worst thing that you can do, is to be the super sales we call that the super sales so involving two or to be involved in every single step that your account manager is taking and to know everything better than the account manager. You will be twenty four hours busy. You will have no time for anything else and you you are just focused on on, on monitoring your team and looking into metrics. But this is the normal behavior. I mean you are not used to go and let people do their job and lead from the front. You are used to do with yourself and if you see something is going wrong, the first natural reaction is to do it better and to go out and help the people to actually do it. But the best thing is to get them to the side, which I understood now, to get them aside, teach them on the right things, teach them on the process, show them the right way and then do it actually together. And I think this is something that a lot of managers are doing wrong, to be the super sales and their first year, maybe in the second year is well, and try to bleat as an individual still, but this is something that comes naturally if you have the right Menthos, if you write the right book, if you read the right books, and it's a whole different play. And this is something what I learned in my first two years or in my first year as a manager, and this is something that's I would like to share with the community, because it's absolutely nothing were people should be worried about. To be a bad manager in that first year. That's something pretty natural. It's it's super important to come out of that sit situation very quickly. Very intelligent people will drive that development by their sell...

...by themselves, and will will be prepared for that job. Others will try to be the super sales and this is something where they need to get out of as quickly as possible. From my point, I feel like you're speaking my experience so much and I'm shore so many other people here, and so I'm curious when you heard from your your mentor that this is going to be not such a good time in your career, was that something that as as somebody that's driven by a challenge, was that a hell yeah, I'm going to buckle up and do this, or was it scary and and what were some of the resources that you mean? You obviously carry through with it because your manager today, but what were some of the resources that helped you along that journey? It was scary. I can definitely tell you was a was a scary time because, of course I'm I'm an individual that wants to be great. I always wanted to do great things and when you realize that you are not the best in the classroom, of course your start to worry about what what you can actually develop on, and the best thing, from my point of view, if you want to develop as a leader is first of all to learn from the best. So there will always be some great leaders next to you and there will always be from leaders who have more experience than and sitting down with them, getting an hour per week to actually be taught on the on the right principles, on the the right way to communicate clearly and have your expectations set towards the team is super important because personally, I just communicated like I would like to receive communication right, but this can become only different with other individuals. So I communicate very clearly normally and communicate straight to the point, but some people just don't understand the language. You have to communicate in a different way from from team member to team members, and setting standards in a else methology doesn't mean that you can communicate that message to everyone in your organization in the same way, and having that adoption as a long learning path. That's that people have to go through. And I can still say, after five six years in management and after building building to two companies, in this region already. I can still say that I'm not at a point where I definitely have all the skills to do anything. I mean I'm learning every single day with new individuals coming in my team or people leading the team, of course, and that's something which is yeah, which is which is which is super important. How to develop is another great question case even I mean I want to. I want to touch on something first, and that's that what I love that you said is so one of the the leadership thought leaders that I really love is Berne Brown, and she talks about naming when you're in what she calls an FT, which is a fucking first time. So like you, name when you're in it, like listen, I've never been a leader before and I met it and it's going to be messy and as people who are driven to be achievement oriented, it is really difficult. I'm speaking because I'm one of them too. It is really difficult to not be excellent at something. I have found it to be so powerful, though, when I say I'm in an FT, I'll tell you this podcast it has been an fft for me. I've never been I've never been a podcast house before, but in doing that, I find that it one gives me permission and to it gives me language to talk to my team about. Yeah, I can say to them like, listen, guys, I'm learning too, and that we're in this together. My our collective goals are...

...x, Y Z. I'm here to be a coach and catalyst, but you all are also responsible and I found that. It took me a long time, but I found that in giving transparency to what the goals were and creating space, telling them what my role was, but creating space for them to tell me how they were going to accomplish it or ideas they had. A lot of times their ideas were better than I would have come up with because they knew how they they thought and operate it, and so that was such it's, you know, to your point, I'm still learning that, but that was such a powerful pivot for me. Yeah, and and being able to create that environment, I think is the humanity within a team, because then it shows them it's okay to raise your hand and say, Hey, I don't know how to do this or I'm new to this. They're not. They're not saying I got it when they don't, because they'll turn to you and I find that leading by example or walking the walk that is been it's feels so vulnerable to do because you're the supposed to be the quote unquote one and charge, but it just changes the dynamic. And so I love what you're saying there, because it sounds like you've been practicing this. You know, trial and error for sure, but it sounds like you've been doing that. I mean, that's the only way to learn it. At the end, making mistakes is is the best way of making making mistakes early in in this kind of this kind of environment is super, super important. And I made mistakes, of course, as an individual, but also as a manager. You have to. You have to make mistakes. The main thing is to learn quickly out of them and and todop the great things that you are learning from left and right, from mentors, from other leaders, and implemented into your own leadership character that you are trying to build. And so talk to me about those times, because exactly I couldn't agree more around failing or, you know, not being successful quick and learning quickly. But I think is a leader. We have a responsibility to to be almost that guide in our employees are our team's journey to getting better. And so how do you how do you deliver that feedback? What are the ways in which you say, you know, hey, time out, guys, this isn't right or we need to learn from this moment. I'm curious of tangibly. What does that look like for you? I mean, giving critical feedback is one of the most challenging things that you that you have to learn as a leader. Normally, you get that feedback to customers and you know how the customer will react because you can actually drive that conversation through, through the sales process itself. But you have human individuals in front of you that rely there, first of all, lives and the careers, on your on yourself, and these people are sitting on your shoulder. So giving feedback is a tough one. And what I've seen is that giving feedback based on real facts is the bath the natural, the most natural way of giving feedback, without any kind of emotions, just getting the steps together, like activity or any kind of other thing that you can actually measure and give it back and just start the thinking process, either as a team or having that conversation in a room. Not every conversation should be should be should be shared with the team if it's something critical and if there's something that you, as a manager want to criticize, and that's that's the right of any of any manager to criticize or to actually try to get things right. So any kind of feedback based on facts, without any emotions and leading through example is, from my from my point of view, the best way of giving of giving feedback. Par One I've done in the past and I find it, I similar to you,...

...of getting feedback can be one of the most challenging things for me because I do feel the way of people's livelihoods, their families, their own self esteem and confidence. You know, you carry all of that. But early in my my establishing of a relationship, I ask my team how they like to hear feedback right and one of the things that I have found is when it's difficult to give it, I say, well, you told me, like you gave me the permission. This is how you want to hear it. So I have found that to be a good you know, the call back on that, because that they gave you permission and so they can take that feedback. You know, however, they choose to. That's that's the right of anybody, but I found that to be helpful and it's it took me a couple times because I gave feedback to people how I wanted to and sometimes their faces were you know, I could see just like this did not land, and so I to build that trust. It's somebody, I think, told me the golden roles treating others how you want to be treated, the platinum roles, treating others how they want to be treated exactly, and I love that difference. Yeah, so I don't want it to be honest. Coming to your point. Can See, and I really love it, at some point I can't treat other people like I want to be treated because I have different standards, I have different I have a different way of receiving information, I have a different way of sending information. So that rule is not in place for me personally. I can't set the same standards that are valid for me as individual and set it for all the people that are working working around me. So speaking to different individuals in a different language and understanding how you actually get the best out of them motivate them in the right way to understand also that background. Some of the people might have a complete different background than you and I'll motivate by different things. So having that intelligence as a manager to know what's what actually motivates you your people on an individual base is absolutely crucial. Some of the people in this job are not motivated by money. Some of the people are just motivated by a glory or by respect from the team. Some of the people want to be the number one but don't care about numbers. They are so competitive that they just want to be the number one in a specific region or in the specific and a specific sales team. So having that in mind is absolutely is absolutely crucial to understand how get over, how to how to give feedback, how to motivate people and actually how to get the best out of out of every single individual that is working for you. In hearing you say that, it almost is this epiphany that I actually wonder if sales people that are motivated by sales, of figuring out the puzzle right dealing with customers, are excellent managers for that reason, because management, to me, is like this game of chess. You're given the or a puzzle, you're given the puzzle pieces and you're figuring it out and it's their success, is your success. And so just thinking about some of the innate traits that make a great sales person, I wonder if that innately pours into or turns into what makes a great manager, because so many of the pieces that you're saying can hold true to how you deal with customers. Right, like you have to meet them where they're at, you have to know what motivates them, you have to understand all the nuance they're coming in, and so I wonder you know what that journey is and if there's any specific research. Fascinated. Yeah, all right, getting back to the tangible, tell me about how you pour into your own self and becoming a manager. What are some of the tangible pieces, because I think it's a it's a art in science that it constantly has to be honed. And then how do you pour into your people? What are the ways in which you're you're developing them, and you know, how do you do that with humanity? That's that's the great one. I so one of my favorite topics, to be honest, my own development. And so there are things that you can do yourself. Of course there is. There was. There are some great...

...books who will help you to understand a different type of vision to help you to get to get to the basics of psychology. Of course, I mean that's that's the different depth. That's a topic that you should understand how people react to specific messages. But what helped me a lot was to hold my mentors and and the people that I work with in my past close to me. Now, some people who gave me so much valuable feedback in my first job, for example, after university, that I still go to when I have to make a big decision. I just call them and ask them for their feedback. Asking people for their feedback when you do in a big decision is absolutely valuable, because sometimes you are so driven by your own by your own view or something that you just want to achieve, that you lose some context to the actual decision that you are making. So reading good books is something, and I'm picking a lot of books up by leaders. I asked them, of course, what's what type of books were important for their career and having the mentors and and and the people that that worked around you and ask for ask for guidance and for me personally, was super important to pick up the best from all the people that I've worked with. So far and I picked some characteristics from from people that are working in the past. I picked up curse of characteristics from people from HDS, from people are at dynamics. At that time at BMC I learned a lot about the salesmatology. That was my first contact medic and picking up all these thoughts from people like he's my elments, Jeremy Dug and Dan Fugier, Patrick Swanstrom that I'm working with today. Many of these people give me so much puzzle pieces that I put together and become the manager that I am today. So copy and paste from leaders that you like, all that you are inspired from, will not, will definitely not work, because you will always is stay another person and will stay the copy of someone and you never will act as a as original. So I've seen a lot of leaders trying to act like like different people and at the end this will definitely not work and people won't develop anymore because they just fixed on one specific person. How do I do it with my team? I give exactly the same advices to my team. So or in take yourself around the best people that are in this in this company or in this industry, ask them for advice, read good books and try to and always try to to do the next step in regards to your development. And this could be this could be something completely different out of the text base. Read a great book about Psychology, read a great book about considerational speeches, or read a book about political background. That will help you to drive great conversations or to just develop yourself. So I give exactly the same advice to my team that I'm that I'm doing myself, and that's the main advice that I that I have for former team report. If I had to summarize everything that we talked about of how you maintain humanity as a leader, it's that you don't just talk the talk, you walk the walk. You know and and that's what you've said several times here, is that you know. You lean into people who who inspire you, but you don't caught, you're not a carbon copy. You take things from them and understand how it applies to you and then when your team says how do I develop, you say, look at the things that I'm doing and figure out how that applies. And I think there's there's a weight that comes with being a manager in a good way,...

...that you have the potential to be somebody's mentor. I know I look at the mentors in my life, some of which have been direct managers, others have been just people I admire or have enjoyed working with, and I know the role they play in my life. To your point, I go to make a big decision and there's a handful of people I want to speak to and the fact that you could have that same gift to somebody else, that that may not be your everybody's mentor, but you may be somebody's mentor within your team or your organization, and what a gift. That, to me is one of the best things that I don't think you know when you become a leader or a manager, but you get to experience and once you do, I personally find it addicting in some ways of wanting to continue to pour into that and it's like the next challenge. It's becoming that next level you know in your career and your just own personal development. Absolutely absolutely and and when you are at that point that people come to you when it comes to a really, really big decision in their lives, you realize that you did a great job, that people will trust your opinion and that you just want them or that they want you as a mentor or as a as a leader, that they want to speak with when it comes to a big decision. And I can guarantee that this kind of people, in this in this situation, will be a hundred percent more productive than than other people because you give them, you give them the right the right environment to develop, you give them the right development to get the best out of them, and all the other things like success, money, quota, achieving activity in specific things, in measuring how how great they are, will come automatically. There are some things, of course, where you have to pay a lot of attention to as a manager to see if people are productive enough, if people are doing their job, if people communicate correctly, if people are doing the right things to make big, big deals and drive and drive, drive the brand that you are trying to build in a specific country or in region or worldwide. But if you give them the right environment to develop and have an open conversation about about their development plants as well, and combining it with a great celles process, that was always the key to success in my last roles, to really development, to develop these these these high potential teams, but have that piece of humanity that you will need to have long lasting, great individuals, that that will just all the perform you over a year. And this is something that I'm actually seeing in my company today, but also in the other companies that I work for. I could, I could go on about this, I swear for another, you know, five hours because I just find it so fascinating. But in wrapping up the conversation, I would say that it like we said, it's walking the walk. I think that what I heard there in that last point is that if you can pour into individuals and teams so that they are accountable to each other, they're accountable to themselves and they're accountable to you, more than the company, more than the quota, like those things will come. You are going to as human beings, we want to connect, we want that fulfillment, and so if you can tap into that, that's almost like the hierarchy of needs. That's the bigger need and all the others then flow from that. And so performance, you know, yes, we lay out the playbook, we give you know how a phrase in my past life, create constraints, cause creativity, and so by giving them constraints to say here's what our goals are. Here's the the you know lanes I need you in. They can then be creative within those realms. But you've set expectations and then pouring into them, and I think you know this is there is the journey between going from individual contributor to to people manager, in which you have to to learn some of that. But...

...if you can acknowledge your fft right your first time and sit in that first year and just say that I'm not going to be perfect at it, but I am gonna to do the same things that my mentors have given to me, that that Jur that year can be a pretty transformative journey and and sets the foundation of how you how you have had humanity at the center of a culture and inside any company, much less a high growth company. Absolutely absolutely agree. You talked about giving them freedom, giving them space and being creative. Of course, at some point, of course, as a leader, you have to take control about that creativity and steer it into the right direction with the process that you have. I mean it's not a it's not a you can do whatever you want situation in these kind of companies. Of course, investors, the crows, are expecting some big numbers from. But I think the main, main goal is to really pair the sales process, which can be very strict. I mean it's a challenging to go from a first call to assigned deal in these startup environments. It's not an easy thing. But combining this very strict sales process, which leads to great, great results, with that little piece of humanity is, from my point of view, the ideal way of of developing people who are coachable and willing to step into this kind of startup environment with a with with this kind of sales process and will lead to a very, very productive team which then, of course, will lead to great numbers and great achievements in these environments. This has been one of my favorite conversations because I love the blend of the functional role with the Human Element. I appreciate you bringing so much authenticity. One is a leader because I can tell that you know it matters to you and then carry that into this conversation and I think that we've given our our listeners some pretty tangible pieces to hopefully carry forward as they go and lead their teams and and do so with humanity. So thank you for joining today. Many thanks, Casey. Many thanks for giving you the MPORTUNITY. All right, well, that is on our Axoi, the regional vice president, a data dog, and I am Casey like Gorden, your host. Will see you next time, and that's a wrap for another great revenue collective podcast. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next week. This episode was brought to you by Sindoso. They deliver modern direct mail, personalized gifts and other physical impressions that make your outreach more personal. Thank you to Sendoso, thank you to honor and thank you to revenue collective. I'm Casey like Bardon, your host,.

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