The Pavilion Podcast
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Ep 22: Maintaining Humanity as a Leader in High Growth Environments feat Onur Aksoy

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Ep 22: Maintaining Humanity as a Leader in High Growth Environments feat Onur Aksoy

Tope Ot Teteteoto, edtalow and welcomedto the revenue collective codcast. My name is Casey Ligktborno and I'n yourhost. Today, I have the chance to sit down with honor x, soy honor as theregional vice president of data dog and o going to talk about something a wholedifferent today, we're going to talk about how do you maintain humanity as aleader in a high growtenviorment, now hi growth, environment? Really goodhigh pressure? You know situation being he leader, I think of something thatmany of us strive to do, but Beyo would maintain and really hon and develophumanity during that process. It's not always easy, and so we're going to talkto honor about his experience and and Sher saw a ow before we get started. Iwant to give a shotow two or sponsor CINDOSO. Senoso is the leading sendingplatform it's the most effective way for revenue, generating teams to standout with new ways to engage at strategic points through the custoerger.By connecting digital and physical strategies, companies can engage equireand Rentiniang customers easier than ever before. Thank you to Senoso andthank you to honor. Let's get started hello and welcomed to the revenuecollective potcast. My name is Casy Likebordet and on your host today, I'msitting down with honorax soy, ooris, the regional vice president hat datadog. He is coming to us from Hamburg, Germany and is going to be talking tous about how do you maintain humanity as a leader in a high groth environment?I think that high growth is always a good thing. Leadership always a goodthing. Humanity, not always the easy thing, so I'm excited to sit down andTa Hea from Outo. Today, thanks for being here, thank you for having me, Iits it's a great pleasure to be excellent. Well, yeah we've come toknow each other over the past several weeks doing some pret for this and IV.I enjoy our conversations every time we have a chance to sit down, and I knowthat the community will as well so to help piccus off today. I think it wouldbe great if you could just situate us in what is deed, a dog. What is yourhole within the company and where are you and your growth trajectory? I thinkthat you know, as I think about this audience, it's always helpful thing forpeople to self identify themselves in where you are in your own journey. Thatway they can figure out. What information is is the most valuable yeah yeah MSO dedgocose found itfotmatbe ten years ago now, so we just celebrated our tenth birthday last week,Um to just summarize what data dogs actlydoing. We are the state of the art cloud observabilityplatform for any kind of Intrastructura lows, applications or security usecases in the clowd, and we m myself, I'm I'm managing the centralEuropan region since two and a half years right now I was the first man onthe ground, an in this region and started building this company out of myout of my kitchen, and now we are woldwide. We are wron about twothousand people when I joink were pproximately six hundred worldwide andyeah super proud of what happened the last few, the last few years and superproud of of the team, and here in the Centar European Regon, which ch didphenomenal things within the last two years. I ask Tso. We talk about thatteam, so you're the first first man on the grounds in an central Europe andthen talk to me about what your team looks like today. Specifically, I wantto know how many people are on your team and I want to know t what rollsand responsibilities are within there and then well we'll get more into yourroll, but I always I always wane to hear about what teams look like. I love to talk more about my team thanabout myself to be honest,...

...that Tas about a true good leader. Imean it it's it's. I think we'll come to that to the casewhen we're talking about changing from a individual contributor to a leader. Ithink more important things come to come to the actual, not to thebackground, but you concentrate on different things and that's that's thething that I hope well talk about as well. Ofcisbut and the team itself looks like t e following Im, I have five fiveindividuals in my team that are spread at in Germany, Austra and Switzerlandtoday, and we are still growing so they are spread in the German parts and alsoin the zuric parts nd in Austrial. We have some some people in differentroles, so over three countries. Actually, I have a team of five greatindividuals who are highly successful in what they're doing. Of course, theteam was built over the last of the last two and a half years and we as a team- and this is somethingreally important for me. We as a team act as as as one as one company, weShawe the same, a Sim same ideas. We have the same standards when it comes Oold coud be up the same standards when it comes to our internal communicationand, of course, mettodologies and sals m strategies and SMETADOLOGIES that I'musing simce since ten years. That makes it pretty easy to communicate quickly,but also to ramp up people quickly and get them into all sale's motion. So Ihave a question on that when you say that so you're, the initial personthat's joined over the past two and a half years, youve scaled from onepercon to to five people, and I think yourself ti six people on the team. How do you ensure that consistency?Because I think that it's I mean you make it sound, really easy right likewe, we all have the same and that s what makes Itto Hi scale buthat isactually very far because it's talient recruitment is is challenging gettingthem onboarding, while you're also growing and so I'mcurious. What aresome of those specifics that you've done when it comes to onboarding teammembers and setting standards across the organizationnothat's, a greatquestion Tisi so and told he we are actually more, I'm just just to get thestrike Weare, approximately twenty people now in th in the Dola, includingses, including customas success managers. So only the team in Hamburghere were onbased as approximately six people strong, so actually weall makemore than this. But if you, if you break it down into the sails and teamthat we have, we are five plus another. Two so e told me we are seven salespeople here in this here in this bigger region. Coming back to your questionisy and that that's one of them, I think one of the most complicatedthings as a leader to onboard people quick and on the others sideeffectively. You have to have a playbook, of course, and the playbookis prety straightforward, if you, if y, if you want to put it that way, we haveAsoi personally, have a metoology that I learned back in my BMC suftwore times,and this mentodology is pretty easy to follow. But it takes m courage and andtake some effort to actually implement it with yourself if people are comingin the first thing that I'm trying to give them a structure structure in thattime, management structure and their actual sales and assales time that theywill cut into pieces from week to week, sold in Monday for, for example, isabsolutely reserved for pipeline generation. This is something this issomething that I live for to have that...

...holy Monday for people who who arecoming in here and block their time on the Monday to actually do nothing elsethan follow out either on their leads on their own good betl emails orontheir lintoln emails to actually drive new customer new customeractivities. The rest of the week is is, of course, um basic activities, and onFriday I try to guide people to actually prepare for the next Mon. Onthe other side, I mean we are all in Texnales. It's super important tounderstand, actually what you are selling so giving a lot of inputs fromases or from salfs foundation itself or giving some experience out of the lastdeals at that we am done as a team or where I was personally involved, isabsolutely crucial for the success of people who are coming coming in here,especially when people come from different environments, then the demopsplay where we are selling to architects or people from the cloud infastructure.So a lot of elements, but the most important when it comes toonboarding getting people effective quickly. As I think, structure, timemanagement, understanding, the process,understanding the sales process in a specific organization and my orgizationsince the last ten years, we I lived and abreed the medic etidology sincesince since I en Amin sales- and this is something that I stand for so getting the people up and running onthe SCOUTH process on the technology- learning quick from their apears. Soshadowing. U A lot of meeting settling a lot of cals is something trucial forpeople who are coming new into into this Enbie. I wanteed Iseckd a couple of the thingsyou said, because I know that this is one of the biggest challenges in livingin a high growth environment by the time you're bringing on tea members.You usually are underwater right, like by the time you're able to hiresomebody. You need them, and so you yourself, as an individual contributorPRI. You know, and an hopefully intin leader, you're, worried about her ownripe and you're doing your own work. And so how do you balance that? And sowhat I'm hearing is one creating a playbook early and Ithink tha that that can be challenging when you're a single individualcontributor to to focus on that structure, because you're, just in themoment trying to do your job. But if you start planning day one for what itlooks like when you scale that scaling becomes a lot easier and d. This is alesson. I've learned the hard way and my my Hossrole is that you know by thetime you beenstructure it's it's almost monumental to go back and recreate it.So doing it from the onset is so important. The same piece you said was:it sounds like you adapt learning styles to what people need. So you knowthat Monday that holy Monday. I love that because one you're coming inyou're getting your head straight for the week people operating their ownways, you know their own flow but you're, giving them that sacred timewhere ther areconomy meanings there aren't going to be demands from theorganization. Then you said you have to playbook sothat that's reading, maybe some video- that's Li in taking it within theshadowing. That's a I'sa, very interactive way of learning, and so Ithink, whet we talk about humanity as a leader. One of the things that you haveto recognize is not everyone learns and operings the same way. You do you haveto meet people where they are, and so what I loved about what you're sayingis that it's a shared responsibility right. Every member of your team isresponsible for having people shadow them contributing to their growth, andI think that you know that is something I'mnoticing as a shift in sales, asthis team mentality versus just individual kind of hustler towards thenumber, and I think that it is attracting and retaining a differentkind of talet when you say that we're a team that we're all pushing towardssomething. I also think it makes the...

...leadership of the team a bit easier andmaybe a lot more lfilling. So I'm curious of any of that resine swit,with what I I'm saying there. No absolutely CS summarized it in in a perfect way. I I do remember timeswhen I was in sales, and I was- and I was selling mstorage at H,Hitacha data systems, which was my first job after the university thatpeople there wasn't a real team. There was a real teaming. I mean everyonejust had their Croda, everyone had had their own office and sometimes evenaccount managers Hav their Assistan to actually to actually get the quotes out.So these times are actually over. I mean we collaborate. How many wecollaborate on so many levels, and this kind of team spirit is absolutelycrucial if, if you wan to Buil, belong, lasting and ready effect of sales teams,Fr M, from my perspective, to get people communicating to each other inthe shadowing aspect in the aspect of of getting people onto differentmeetings in in the first three or four weeks is absolutely crucial for theirstat and am on boarding an efficiency t there. It sounds like one of theships you're noting, is that it's let's make the team customer cendtric notquota. CENTRIC ANDEQUOTA should be the thing that Ri. That's that's way we'reall in this role, because we are comfortable producing rousults as howwe know we're going to be measured, but that doesn't necessarily define aculture. The results are or one thing the culture is different and that'swhat I want us to to dig into today and you- and I were talking hat- I thinkbecoming the sales later- is a leader. Any company is interesting, butspecifically a sales leader has a very o know. Let's Talk Bo, the SOA I found.I was a really good individual contributor that my leadership said: Ohmy God, you're doing so good. You should lead a tea ou and the sameskills as being an individual contributor versus leading a group ofindividuals. It's different Okd. I know I skinned my knees on that.Like the first couple of months, I thought looig back, I fe a OFOR, myteam, because I was managing them the way I was studying expectations thesame way. I HAV SED expectation for myself. I sometimes that prigeted, anenvironment that I don't think was superflexible, I think, didn't alwaysmeet people where they were and sometimes created, expectations that Idon't even know if they could co LD, they could actually accomplish becausethey were new. So I just want to know your journey like. Were you on theleadership trap or were you one of those? That's like otter, you're, sosuccessful? Let's give you a to you. I need to be honest s yonever. I neverwanted to be mat. Oi got me either okay, we'rewe're in this together. So I I Inever ask in my life for a management job I was asked by my BP and also by my cro at adynamics acouple of years ago. If I would like to lead a team- and I remember it likeyesterday- that they really asked me if I want to do this, and I must notreally sure I mean everyone wants to be a leader at one point from my point.There are some there are some people who just don't want to be managers orleaders, because they just want to do their job and don't Wan to care aboutdifferent people's development plans or or Gols in life, or of course, you arealso involved into private things when you wh N, when you start managing teams,of course, and they waite astme an I and- and I hear Joe Sexton's a voicesince since then, since that day, who asked me on the phone Ay honor, do youwant to do this? Do you want to be a leader- and I didn't really understandthat question at that point, and I said,...

...of course I want to do this, but fromtime to time you really understand what hemment, when he asked me. If I want todo this, because in my first year after after I was promoted to to Managemrole,it was my worst year in my career, and I tell you why it it was such a geet inmy operating whythm and the way I was used to do my job in my manager. Atthat time, in Adynamis is Mal Almas. I think we had we had a rough timetogether and because it's it's in in my minator or his his vp at that time, entup, ynematermy, Dugen and told me this will be the worst year of your careerbecause you will do a ship Jop in your first management. You that's wish. Ihad that person in my life when I started managing, because I did notwhoanythin to me feeling awful do not know that. No, so whether you hadesomeone that said that not he said to me, this will be. This will be a Shiyear for you because I mean there are so many good people around you that didthat jok for the last five years and you are doing or getting a little orgetting a little audio. I want to make sure that we capture. Can you hear me?Ok, I can you Reducyo Ara, guys you're getting the real deal here where we'reconnecting internationally overwifi. Sometimes it's not perfect. So allright, so you hear from your your collegue, your boss, that says: HeyThi's, going to be a terrible year, just buckle up, get ready, not going tobe bret exactly, and he told me that this year will be definitelychallenging because there are some people around you who did this job forthe last five years and you'll be the guy who does not have all thatexperience o. You can be a great sales individual, but it's a whole differentjop. It's a complete different jop to lead people and to lead sale. Steams,be only the only thing that this hasn't come in all the numbers and the dealsthat you have in front of you. So there are two ways to actually deal with that.The first thing is, and that's the worst thing that you can do is to bethe super sails. We we call it the supersails so involving to be involvedin every single step that your accountmenger is saking and to knoweverything better than the COM paature. You will be twenty four hours busy. Youwill have no time for anything else, and you are just focused on on onmonitoring your team and and looking into metrix, but this is the normalbehavior I mean you are not used to go and let people do their jaw and leadfrom the front. You are used to do it yourself and if you see something isgoing wrong. The first natural reaction is to do it better and to go out andhelp the people to actually do it, but the best thing is to get them to theSihe, which I understood now to get them asides, teach them on the rightthings. Teach them on the process, show them the right way and then do itactually together, and I think this is something that a lot of managers aredoing wrong to be the super sails in the first year, maybe in their secondhear as well, and try to Leed as a individual steell. But this issomething that comes naturally, if you have the right menthos. If you writethe right bt, if you read the ridt boats and it's a whole different playd.This is something what I learned in my first two years on my first year as asa manager, and this is something that I would like to Shar with the community,because it's absolutely nothing where people should be worried about to be abad manager in the first year. That's something pretty natural. It's it's soimportant to come out of that s situation very quickly. Veryintelligent people will drive that...

...development by theiselves by themselvesand will will be prepared for that job. Others will try to be the Super Sals,and this is something where they need to get out of as quickly as possible.From my penty to I feel that you're speaking my experience so much andassure so many other people here and so i'mcurious when you heard from yourEurmentor that this is going to be not such a good time in your career, wasthat something that, as as somebody that's driven by a challenge, was thata Hellya to buckle up and do this or was it scary? And and what were some ofthe resources that you mean? You obviously carry through with it,because you were mader today. But what were some of the resources that helpedyou along that journey? It was scary. I I can definitely tellot was was a scary time because of course, I I'm an individual. That wantsto be great. I I always wanted to do great things and when you realize thatyou are not the best in the classroom and of course, you'l start to worry about what what you can actuallydevelop on and the best thing from my point of view, if you want to developas a leader, is first of all, to learn from the best. So there will always besome great leaders next to you, and there will always be some leaders whohave more experience than in sitting down with them getting inour pre week to actually be taught on the on the right principles, on the theright way to communicates clearly and have your expectations set towards theteam is so important because, personally, I just communicated like Iwould like to receive communication France, but this can be cm, bedifference with other individuals. So I communicate very clearly normally andcommunicates straight to the point, but some people just don't understand thelanguage you have to communicate in a different way from from t member to tea.Member and setting standards in an a salesmetology doesn't mean that you cancommunicate that message to everyone in your organization in the same way andhaving that adoption is a long learning path. That's that people have to gothrough and Um. I can still say after five six years Nin management, N of the building building two two companies in thisregion am already. I can still say that I'm not at a point where I definitelyhave all thes kills to do anything I mean I'm learning every single day withnew individuals coming in my team or people leaving the team, of course, andthat's something which is yeawhich is which is which is Suimportant, how to develop. As is another great question, casepid Um I mean I wanna. I want to touch onsomething first and that's it. What I love that you said is so one of heleadership. The leaders that I I really love is Bernae Brown and she talksabout naming when you're in what she calls it fft, which is a fucking firsttime so, like you name when you're in it, like listen, I've never been aleader before and a int, and it's going to be bessy and as people who aredriven to be achievement oriented, it is really difficult, I'm speakingbecause I'm one of them too, is really difficult to not be excellent atsomething I have found at to be so powerful, though, when I say I'm in anFFT I'll tell you this podcast. It has been an FFT for me: I've Neverbeen I'venever been castos before, but in doing that, I find that it. One gives mepermission and to it gives me language to talk to my team, about, I can say tothem like listen guys, I'm learning to...

...and that we're in this together m ourcollective goals Ar Xyz, I'm here to be a coach and a catalyst, but you all arealso responsible, and I found that it took me a long time that I found thatin giving transparency to what the goals were and creating space tellingthem what my role was but creating space for them to tell me how they weregoing to accomplish it or ideas they had a lot of times. Their ideas were betterthan I would have come up with, because they knew how they obeyed, thought andoperated, and so that was such it's. You know to your point: I'm stilllearning that, but that was such a powerful pivot for me and and beingable to create that environment, I think, is the humanity within Atine,because then it shows them. It's okay. To raise your hand, say, Hey and don'tknow how to do this or I'm new to this they're, not they're, not saying I gotit when they don't because they'll turn to you and I find that leading byexample or walking the walk that as been it feels so vulnerable to dobecause you're supposed to be the quotof one in charge, but it justchanges the dynamic, and so I I love what you're saying there, because itsounds like you've been practicing this. You know trial and error for sure, butit sounds like you've been doing that I mean that's the only way to learn it atthe end. Um Making mistakes is, is s the best way of making making mistakesearly Inin this kind of in this kind of orvionment as supis important, and Imade mistakes of course, as a individual, but also as a manater youhave to you have to make mistakes. The main thing is to learn quickly out ofthem and and t adopt the great things that youare learning from left and riht from Memphis from other leaders andimplemented into your own leadership character that you are trying to build and so talk to me about those timesbecause exact I I couldn't agree more around failing or you know, not beingsuccessful, quick and learning quickly, but I think, as a leader, we have aresponsibility to to be almost that guide in ouremployees or ou teams journey to to getting better. And so how do you? Howdo you deliver that feedback? What are the ways in which you say you know heytime out Guis this isn't right or we need to learn from this moment, I'mcurious of tangibly. What does that look like? For you? I mean givingcritical feetback is one of the most challenging things and that you thatyou have to learn as a leader anormally, you get thet peeback to customers, andyou know how the customer will react, because you can actually drive thatconversation through through the sells process itself. But you have humanindividuals in front of you that rely their first of all lives and the Kareason your on yourself, and these peopl are sitting on your shoulder. So givingfeedback is a tough one, and what I've seen is that giving peop a base on realfacts is the the natural the most natural way ofgiving feedback and without any kind of emotions, just getting the stattogether like activity or any kind of other thingthat you can actually measure and give it back and just stop e thinkingprocess either as a team or having that conversation in in a room, not everyconversation should be should be, should be shared for the team if it'ssomething critical and if, if there is something that you as a manager, wantto criticize and thats, that's the right of any of any manager tocriticize or to actually try to get things right. So any kind of feedbackbased on facts without any emotions and leading through example, isfrom. My from my in to fee the best way ofgiving of giving feeback Parmel Ive I've done in the past, and Ifind it I similar to you of getting...

...feedback, can be one of the mostchallenging things for me because I do feel the way of of people's livelihoods,their families, their own self esteem and confidence. You know you carry allof that, but early in my my establishing of a relationship, I askby team how they like to hear FEEBAC, and one of the things that I have foundis when it's difficult to give it. I say: Well, you told me, like you, gaveme the permission. This is how you want to hear it, so I have found that to begood. You know to call back on that because they they gave you permission,and so they can take that feedback. You know, however, they choose to that's.That's the right of anybody, but I'e found that to be helpful and it it tookme a couple of times because I gave feedback to people how I wanted to andsometimes their faces were. You know I could see just like mist and not land,and so I to build that trust is of somebody. I think told me. The goldenrole is treating others how you want to be treated the PLATNUMBER AL astreating others how they want to be treated, and I love that difference. SoI don't want to be honest. Coming to your pointancee, really love it at some point. I can't treat otherpeople like. I want to be treated because I have different standards. Ihave different. I have a different way of receiving information. I have adifferent way of of sending information, so that rule is not in place for mepersonally, I cancet the same standards that are valid for me as individual andsaid it for all the people that are working working around me so umspeaking to different individuals in a different language and understandinghow you actually get the best out of them, multivate them in the right wayto understand also their background. Some of the people might have acomplete different background than you and are multivate by different thit. So,having that intelligence as a manager to know what's what actually multivatesyour poponaindividual base is absolutely crucial. Some of the peoplein this jor are not moltivated by money. Some of people are just motivated by agory or by respect from the team. Some of the people want to be the number one,but don't care about numbers. They are so competitive that they just want tobe the number one in a specific region or inth specific on a specific salesteam. So having that in mind is absolutely is absolutely crucial tounderstand how getorhow how to get feedback, how to motivate people andactually how to get the best Ouf out of every single individual that is workingfor you. In hearing you say that it almost is thisepipheny that I actuallywonder if sales people that are motivated by sales of figuring out thepuzzle right dealing with customers are excellent managers. For that reason,because management to me is like this game of chess you're given or a puzzleyou're, given the puzzlepieces and you're figuring it out and it's theirsuccess as your success, and so just thinking about some of the natrats thatmake a great sails person. I I wonder if that natly pours into or turns intowhat makes a great manager, because so many of the pieces they are saying canhold true to how you deal with customers right, like you have to meetthem. where they'reat you have to know what motimates them you have tounderstand, all the new ones they're coming in, and so I wonder, you knowwhat that journey is an if there's any specific research. I'm fascinated all right. Getting A to this tangibletell me about how you pour into your your own self and becoming a manager.What are some of the tangible pieces, because I think it's it's a art inscience that that constantly has to be homd, and then how do you forinto yourpeople? What are the ways in which you're you're developing them and you Kow? How do you do that with humanity that that's the great one Sol one of myfavorite topics to be on my own development, and so there are thingsthat you can do yourself. Of course...

...there is there is. There are some greatbooks who will help you to understand he different type of vision, nd to help you to get to get to the basics of psychology. Ofcourse I mean that's. That's a different. That's t, a topic that youshould understand how people react to specific messages, but what helped me alot was to hold my mentors nd nd, the people that I work with in my pastcloseme thow, some people who gave me so much valuable feedback in my firstjob, for example after university that I still go to when I have to make a bigdecision. I A just called them and asked them for their peeper askingpeople for the feetback when you doin a big decision is absolutely valuablebecause sometimes wouare so driven by your home by our own view, or somethingthat you just want to achieve, that you lose some contexts to the actualdecision that you are making so reading. Good books is something and I'm picking a lot of books out byleaders. I asked them, of course, what's what what type of books werewere important for their career and having the menthers nd and the peoplethat that worked around you ask for, as for guidance and for me, personaly wassupe important t to pick up the best from all the people that I've workedwith so far and I' picked some characteristics from from people thatare workor in the past. I picked up cor characteristics from people from HDSAMD from people O at Etonemics. At that time, NBMC, I learned a lot about thesales motology that was my first contact medic in picking OUP. All thesethoughts when people like he's mile almonds, Geremy Dugan, Danfugier,Patrick Sonstroom, that I'm working with today many of these people give me so muchpuzzle pieces that I put together and become the manager than I am today socopy and pace from leaders that you, like all that you are inspired from,will not will definitely not work, because you will always stay anotherperson and will say the copy of someone and he never will act as a as original.So I I've seen a lot of leaders trying to act like like different people andat the end this will definitely not work and people won't develop anymorebecause they just fixed on on one specific person. How do I do it? Withmy team? I give exactly the same advices to my tea, so orientateyourself around the best people that are in this in this company or in thisindustry. Ask Them for advice, read good books and try to, and always try to t to do the next stepin Regos or development, and this could be. This could be something completelydifferent out of the textbase. Read a great book about Psychology, read agreat book about considerational speeches or Reada book about politicalbackground that will help you to drive great conversations or to just aboutyourself. So I give exactly the same advice to my team tha that I'm doingmyself and Um that's the main advice that I that Ihave for Forforante Mu. If I had to subberize everything that we talkedabout F of how you maintain humanity as a leader, it's that you don't just talkthe talk, You walt the walk and that's what you've said severaltimes here is that you know you lean into people who who inspire you, butyou don't car you're, not a carbon copy. You take things from them andunderstand how it applies to you and when your team says, how do I develop?You say: Look at the things that I'm doing and figure out how that applies,and I think, there's there's a way that comes with being a vantager in a goodway that you have the potential to be...

...somebody's mentor. I know I look ateventors in my life, some of which have been direct managers. Others have beenjust people I advi or have enjoyed working with, and I know the role they play. I my life toyour point. I go to make a big decision and there's a handful of people. I wantto speak to and the fact that you could have that same gift to somebody else.That may not be everybody's mentor, but you may be somebody's mentor withinyour team or your organization. An what a gift that to me is is one of the bestthings they. I don't think you know when you become a leader or a manager,but you get to experience and once you do, I personally find it addicting insub ways F of wanting to continue to pour into that, and it's like the nextchallenge. It's becoming that next level. You know in your your career andyour just own personal development, absolutely Movian, and when you are atthat point that h people come to you when it comes to a really really bigdecision in their lives. You realized that you did a great job, that thatpeople trust your opinion and that you just won them orthat. They want you asas a mentor or as a as a leader that they want to speak with when it comesto a big decision, and I can guarantee that this kind of people in this inthis situation will be a hundred percent more productive than than otherpeople, because you give them, you give them the right, the right environment,to develop, to give them the right development to get the best out of themand all the other things like success. Money cool to achieving acxivity inspecific things in measuring how how great they are Yo will comeautomatically. There are some things, of course, where you have to pay a lotof attention to as a manager to see if people are productive enough if peopleare doing their job, if people communicate correctly, if people aredoing the right things to make big big deals and drive and drive drive thebrand that you are trying to build in a specific country or in region orworldwile. But if you give them the right environment to develop, have a open conversation thebods abovetheir development plants as well and combining it with a great selth process.That was always the keeps f success in, in my last roles to redevelop todevelop these these these high potential teams, but have that piece ofhumanity that you will need to have a long, lasting, great individuals thatthat will just overcooform ye over her, and this is something that I'm actuallyseeing in my company today, but also in in the other companies that I work for. I could I could go on about this. Iswear for another. You know five hours because I just find it so fascinating.But in wrapping up the conversation, I would say that, like we said it's, it's walking thewalk. I think that when ie heard there n, that last point is that if you canpour into individuals and teams so that they are accountable to each other,they 're accountable to themselves and they're accountable to you more thanthe company more than the quota, like those things will come. You are goingto as human beings. We want to connect, we want that at fulfilment, and so, ifyou can tap into that, that's almost like the hierarchy of need, that's thebigger need and all the others then flow from that and so performace youknow. Yes, we lay out the playbook we gave. You know had a phrase of my past.Live creed, constraints, cause creativity and so, by giving themconstraints to say here's what our goals are. Here's, the the you knowlames, I need you in they can thet be creative within those realms, but juweset expectations and then pouring into them- and I think you know this isthere- is the journey between going from individual contributor to topeople manager in which you have to to...

...learn some of that. But if you canacknowledge your your ffd write your first time and sin in that first yearand just say that I'm not going to be perfect at it, but I am Goinna to dothe same things that my mentoards have given to me, that that, during thatyear, can be a pretty transformative journey and and sets the foundation ofhow you how you have had humanity at the center of a Pultura an inside anycompany, much less a hybride company, absolutely absolutely agree. You talkedabout giving them freedom, giving them space and being creative, of course, atsome point, of course, as a leader, you have to take control about thatcreativity and and steer it into the right direction. With the process thatyou have. I mean it's, not it's not you can do whatever you want situation inin these kind of companies. Of course investors. The cros are expecting somebig numbers from, but I think the main th main goal is to realypare t thesales process, which can be very strict. I mean t' T it's a challenging to gofrom a first call to a sign deal in these startup environments. It's IT'S T,it's not an easy thing, but combining this very strict sales process, whichwhich leads to great great results with that little piece of humanity is, frommy point of view, the ideal way of of developing people who are cotoable andwilling to step into this kind of start up environment with Er h this kind ofsales process, and we lead to a very, very productive team, whichthen, of course, will lead to great numbers and great achievements inindiesanbads. This has been one of my favorite conversations,because I I love the bland of of the functional role with the Human Element.I appreciate you bringing so muchauthenticity. One is a leader ecause. I can tell that you know it matters toyou and then carry that into this conversation, and I think that we've,given our our listeers, some pretty changible pieces to hopefully carryfoad as as they go and need their teams and and do so with humunity. So thankyou for joining today, Mabe Thans Caz. Many things for giving you thoto all right. Well, that is Oneratso theratinal vice president at data dog, and I am casy like Bor in your houst- wellsee you next timeand, that's a rap for another gray revenue, flective podcast!Thank you for tuning it and we'll see you next week. This episode is broughtto you by Sindoso. They deliver modern, direct male personalized gifts andother physical impressions that make your outreach more personal, theUtisenoso thank you to honor an Tinina reve Uflective, I'm Caso Lorde in yourhouset.

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