The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

Ep. 119: Modern Sales w/ Sam McKenna and Russell Wurth

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep. 119: Modern Sales w/ Sam McKenna and Russell Wurth

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday) series hosted by Tom Alaimo. 

All right, everyone thank God it'smonday. Welcome back to the Pavilion podcast where revenue leaders come tolearn the tips, the tricks, the tactics that they need to be successful intheir role. It's monday morning. Thank you for joining. I'm your host TomAlamo. Money over a dog doing some work here for Pavilion. Trying to help youfolks out before we get to the great content of today. Let's give a quickshout to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by the lovely peopleadrift. More than 50,000 businesses use drift to grow revenue and increasedcustomer lifetime value faster drift, helps their customers align salesmarketing on a single platform to deliver a unified customer experiencewhere people are free to have a conversation with the business at anytime on their terms, learn more at drift dot com. So for today, it's aunique episode that we've got two guests that are joining me on thepodcast. Um super excited for this one. So first up and it's all together. Sowe have Sam McKenna also known as hashtag SAM sales. SaM runs her own.She's the founder of SAM sales consulting, you know, also an advisorat multiple different tech startup. She's an L. P. At the go to Market Fund,she's a guest lecture at Northwestern University. She's a board member at thesales assembly. Former head of sales of enterprises linked in VP of sales ofenterprise that on 20 for the list goes on and on. SaM joins us with just anincredible pedigree of knowledge around the sales craft and great energy.Meanwhile, her companion here is Russell Worth Russell is the VP ofsales enablement over at show pad formerly ran enablement at at placeslike net scope silence operative, just to name a few, one of the most wellrespected names and resources in the enablement community. And so us three,we got together to talk about modern sales and what that means from themodern sales rep to a modern sales leader. Everything in between that youneed, we know that sales is evolving. We know that you need to change andcontinue to grow and evolve and we get into the tactics of how to do so. Solet's get straight into that conversation with me, Sam and Russell.Let's go. All right, Sam Russell. Good morning, Happy friday. Welcome to thePavilion podcast. How you doing? Good morning. Great to meet you guys andhang out today, having a great day watching SAM's background here with thepineapple. Kind of hungry for a good breakfast. It's supposed to be friendlyand hospitable russell. Hopefully that is giving you that, that impressionright there. Listen, pineapple juice, it's nothing. But you just need alittle Tequila vodka and then we'll really be having a great friday acouple hours until then there you go. Before we get to all, all of the good,meaty stuff about sales. I gotta call out because Sam, when I emailed you theother day, I got a great out of office from you that I think it was whatyou're 10th anniversary of your 30th birthday or however you phrase that howare the festivities? They were? They were really good. So it took like oneof my first vacations in Covid, which looks like it's going to be curtailedyet again, but went to the, went to the Bahamas celebrated and in style andtried to disconnect as much as I can, which I never get to do. But yeah, Ifeel like I'm physically walking into a new decade, you guys being 40 is like atotally, totally different thing. You've got a long way to get thereuntil you're there tom but it's awesome. Pretty, pretty excited. I feel like thecelebrations never end right now. Do you do something interesting? Like, Ifeel like with a big birthday like that, like did you get super reflective andstart writing things down or you just like, now, I feel pretty good aboutwhere I'm at with life and you're celebrating having a margarita. It'sthe weirdest thing, right? Like for any of you listening, who have been in thesame position, there's part of me that's like, oh my God, I've livedmaybe half my life already, I only have 50% left to go, but then the other partof me is like, ok, so let's say if I'm...

...going to retire at 65 okay, that'sgreat, so wait a minute. Oh my God, that's 25 more years that I have towork, right? So it's like on one side of it and like there's no, I have likeno time left, I'd better start living. And then on the other side it feelslike an eternity. But I will say, I think that there's a, there's a greatreflection on the idea of like, we really have one life to live dependingon your personal belief structure, but we have one life to live, right? And sogo live it. Take the vacation by the shoes, eat the cheese by the thingsthat you want to buy. Stop waiting until the next day. I, I think that'skind of where my head's been on. I love it, I love it. I'm fired up with twominutes into this thing. We could just, we could just cut it right there,that's all, that's great. So we're here today to talk through modern sales,which is something that all three of us are passionate about. And I thinkanyone that's paying attention to the sales landscape knows that like, theway that you need to do things today is not the way things are done 10 yearsago. And the way that you do things today probably won't work 5 to 10 yearsfrom now. You need to continually evolve and adapt. So I'll turn to yourussell first. Maybe you just kind of kick us off when you're thinking aboutmodern sales, like pretty broad subject, like what comes to mind to you as beingsuper important. Well, you know, just how much has transformed the storySammy. Your birthday took me back to what I did on Monday. I turned 46, butI actually took in a moment, I found something interesting. When did I getin the sales? It was about 34 years ago when I first turned 12. I have anemployment contract that I signed to deliver papers but also have the sellpapers because I'm walking by houses. I might as well deliver extra papers. Butit was when I turned, it was on my birthday, I was able to go in and signup and get my very first job. I first sales job as a delivery person. But alot of times we just get stuck in some of these bad habits because sales hashad a few transformations but I think none bigger sam you alluded to thanjust the past couple of years, you know, a little bit before the pandemic. Butabsolutely starting last year and you know, I keep thinking back of some ofthese sales movies, we all know them glengarry glen ross or even sales showslike Mad Men. And I come back to how modern selling needs to transform fromDon draper walking in. He's got the sales deck here. He's got the kodiakcarousel of visuals, right? He's got 30 slides, he's going to take peoplethrough and and tell them a story and he's got their attention becauseeverybody's just leaning in, Nobody's doing that anymore. I mean, Sam I cansee like after about 30 seconds to a minute people want to jump, in right.totally don't want to wait for the whole deck. Well, and I think you makesuch a good point, right? Like even about how quickly sales is changing, Ithink about when we started to get in this pandemic, how many organizationsreach out to us and said, okay, we need training on digital selling. Like, whatdo we do now that we can't go in person? What do we do now? That we can't go toconferences and things like that? And what I love kind of about what happenedwith this, is it really forced people to take their heads out of the sand andthink about all the things that they should have been doing all along withdigital selling. Right. My first question was, what do you do in betweenthose in person meetings? What do you do after the conference? How did youguys stay in touch before? And they're like, what we really didn't, We justwaited for the contract to come in and I'm like, oh my God, right. So it'sit's sales has changed so much, right? But I think a lot of the things that weshould have been doing over these last five years with digital touches,nurturing campaigns, social selling have been present in some of our topperformers and now because of the pandemic, so many people have said likecrap, okay, we finally need to do this right and to get in again or to catchup with the times this transformation. It's not hard. It's just different. Ithink that's the thing, right? Because I'm seeing the same thing with peoplethat they want to transform. They just don't know how because they're stillclinging a little bit of old ways. You know, and you have to acknowledge tosimple truths, video is the new fax machines, social as the new phone book.You know that I can't go through thumb through the phone book and do coldcalls that way. I love your phrase, you know, show me you know me because we'reripping a bit before that somebody actually reached out to me and I get alot of calls from BDR is trying to sell me tools for sales productivity.Somebody actually showed me that they...

...knew me by seeing something not onlinkedin, but on twitter and my twitter profiles right there. It's the onlyplace that talks about barbecue that I love to barbecue. So they put that inyour intro email, it was very, very simple. No marketing automation systemcan do that. Of course, when I have a conversation because you did just alittle bit of work to know me, then you're probably going to do the work itentails to know my company, know about my problems, my challenges, the peopleI'm working with, my peers to help me build A business case to do somethingthat's as simple as it is. And I mean, right, so we're seeing that with socialbeing the new phone book, there is information out there to set that hookand get interest and show as a rep you're going to put forth a little bitof effort to know somebody versus the effort to master a pitch deck of 30slides that maybe I sell you that way. I couldn't agree with you more. And Iin fact, I just posted about this today about the art of personal relationships,building personal relationships. So we know that show me, you know me isreally important. If you guys haven't heard that concept before, it's mytagline, it's the acronym, I would have tattooed on my arm if I ever had theguts to get a tattoo, but it's the idea of just doing our research on someonebefore we reach out so that we can make an impact, right and stand out and bedifferent, right? And how do we do that? Like? Yes, you can look at linkedin iflet's say Russell had nothing on linkedin, where else is he? Is he ontwitter? Has he recently spoken on a podcast? Did you speak at a conferenceas they published a blog, Right? There are things that we can do to just showthat person that we know them and earn the right to a meeting and now we alsowant to be careful, right? Don't go on instagram unless they have $100,000.Don't go on facebook and be like you and your wife looks great on the beachbecause that's really gritty. Don't do that stuff. But just think about howyou can stand out and you know what tom I'll give a shout out to somebody onyour team. Actually had gone Michael Pearlman, Do you know who this is? Yeah,you're talking about the linkedin post from yesterday. You're sure you know Iam right. So that that went viral. It made its way around Michael Pearlmantook a second to draw a cartoon of who is it? Morgan Kirkland write and draw acartoon of how gone and autodesk could work together. Uh, you know, took 15minutes, probably more to draw this cartoon, send it in the mail and got ameeting. Is that scalable? No. Do I care that I'm going to spend 20 minutesand five bucks of male of postage right to get a meeting with somebody that Icare about? No, I'm going to do that all day long. If I can spend threehours doing quality prospecting versus spray and pray spam and all kinds ofcrap without showing, showing me, you know me, I'm going to do that all daylong versus you know, the stuff that just is spam and hopes for the besttotally as an individual contributor. I think the examples are becoming morevisible of people like Michael that are doing those types of things. Whetherit's just personalizing the first line of an email to what Russell's, you know,doing with brisket or whatever it might be too, you know, something as creativeas drawing. But I'm curious like from a leader perspective, right, if you're aVP of sales or C. R. O, how do you make that part of the culture, how do yousystematically make change versus just letting a handful of a player's kind ofset the stage for doing creative work while everyone else doesn't adapt,Russell. I'll defer to you too. At first, in your and your role. I thinkyou've got probably great insights here. Yeah, it's a tough one because I thinkwe put in in the past couple years, a lot of systems to track activity andyou lived at the sand, but managers, they default to activity tracking howmany a pond touches calls did you make touches did you make? Because they'vegot some formula they're using. But the formula is broken. We have toacknowledge that it's quality over quantity. And I think the more that youcan look at quality things, you can do unique things you can do that's goingto net results because right now that predictable formula and I think we'veseen it before as if I have, you know, X number of calls versus Y. Number oftouches. I end up with maybe a 1% or 2% connect rate. Maybe I can increase itby half a percentage point. If I tweak my messaging instead, just say, youknow what maybe something's broken here because we probably need to think aboutwho is our target? How are we going to target them? How do we get personal?Because nobody ai is going to replace that in terms of that spray and prayapproach. I think there's still a need...

...to do some of that to get some aircover and awareness. But this is one of the things we're trying to do withinour own environment is get away from the old way of how many times did yourun through the pitch, check and run through the demo script and I'll do acall out right now. What we're trying to do and transform show pad and ourcustomers is doing nonlinear conversations. If you have a show padrep, take you through a pitch deck, you call me directly because they're not todo that. To take you through a guided experience. The things that we can thensay, Hey, let me take five minutes to a set up and then you tell me where youwant to go. And that's the way we can actually measure something's there.It's not as accurate as measuring all these activity based things, but it'smore impactful. We're seeing the results for us and some of ourcustomers because it requires the human elements, not just the tom Anton kindof plug somebody into the matrix of the BDR call script and then just go really,really fast saying you look like you have to add some things there. Yeah.And I think tom like you, you said it perfectly right the beginning, like howdo leaders do this? Right. And that's exactly it, it starts with leadership,right? We know that whatever comes from the top down is what we're going to goto and I think a lot of the times we're still focused Russells point on howmany calls did you do? And what was the conversion and did you connect and allthat stuff? Because we just don't know what else to do, right? And a lot ofpeople are just fearful if I move off track, if I a B. Test somethingdifferent, right and it fails, will I lose my job? Will I lose my bonus? Willwe not have quota? And what I would say is just what Russell said, the focus onquality over quantity is so so important, especially when we aretrying to get to mid market enterprise buyers when you're trying to get to theRussells of the world, a sales, e email and a you know with the subject linethat's just like you know I. T. Cloud computing and then Russell, I hope thisfinds you and your family doing well. Russell's not even going to open upthat email tom you're not even going to open up that email, right? Because weknow it's sales E and we know that the person sent it to us and 5000 otherpeople, what I would say to that I think is really being missed of amodern way to sell and how to be quality over quantity is just to besmart about the data we already have. Right? So what context do we have? Whatclients do we have that have changed jobs? Who do we know that couldfacilitate an introduction. Right. If Russell, let's say was one of top ofour top saM sales clients and he said I love you guys, I'll refer you toanybody. You let me know I as an a E or as a leader, have an opportunity to dotwo things. I can say, oh my God, happy years. Fantastic. Russell's going tokeep me in mind. And I can say, do you know anybody that you could introduceme to? And Russell is going to think about who he's talked to this week andwho he talks to the most often, he might, you know, do some math, carrythe two and be like, not right now, but I'll keep you in mind and I'll be like,oh my God, that's great. Or I can be smart about the data that I've got infront of me and I can say that's amazing, you're so generous, thank youso much. Can I take a look through your linkedin connections and can I send youa few names back that you could introduce me to. Meeting. Meeting.Meeting? I'm taking the control into my own hands as an I. E. Right. And I'mbeing proactive versus getting excited. That Russell's going to keep me in mind,which basically after the weekend he's going to barely remember my name.That's not true. But right, we got to be smart about that data also, just aquick thing, right? On the job hopper piece. I'm not marketing. So that's ascreative as a name as I can get. But if Russell hires me a show pad and then hemoves jobs, I should monitor that. Like it's going out of style, right? Ishould check to see where he's going and then I should say congrats on yournew job. I'm sure drinking from the firehose in eight weeks. Could we talkabout how saM sales could help you wherever you go? And he's going to saythanks. That's awesome. Also, thanks for your EQ of not requesting a meetingon day one. You, you know, presumptuous aid, but there's that kind of stuffthat we can make such a take such advantage of. And just even think aboutthat show. Pat is an organization gang is an organization who are your clientsand where have they changed jobs? I bet we don't know the answers to thosequestions and it is an immediate hit for us to be able to get leads andmeetings so quickly versus just trying a new A B. M. Campaign or somethinglike that. I'll take a breath. It's so...

...excited about this stuff you guys. Ilove it. I love it. And something that we were riffing on before we startedrecording was like focusing on the fundamentals, right? If I was to coachsomeone on that wanted to get in better shape, right? Like you could do the 10day juice cleanse that might work for a little bit and then you revert back toyour old ways. Or you could maybe start to build a habit of eating healthier,exercising three days a week, whatever it might be. And in my opinion, I feelthat the habits and the fundamentals can get you super far and pretty muchanything that you're trying to do and I know that was something that you'reboth kind of agreeing on it. And some of the examples that you both just laidout, like Sam the keeping tabs on where your customers then go to differentjobs, right? Or not just asking for any referral, but going through the linkdidn't connect connections, making a specific request. Hey, I see you, youknow, you and Russell used to work together at show Pat, you know, I thinkwe can help them with what, you know, the solution that we have. Like, wouldyou be willing to make an introduction or could I, you know, reference yourname and an email, would you be okay with that? Like the fundamentals, I'dlove to hear you talk about that versus just like the next shiny object thatmight be hitting your desk totally well, and I'll kind of just tie it back towhat we were talking about with, you know, the show me, you know me andrelationship building is one of the fun fundamentals. This is exactly what Iposted about today on linkedin. Being able to build a relationship at a humanlevel with somebody, whether it's figuring out that they love, you know,barbecue and brisket, whether it's, you know, for Russell, I know I know abouthis family, I know how many Children he has, I know that he loves nationallampoon's christmas vacation, like I do, like there are things that I have nowlearned about Russell that you know, exist in my head, but frankly Russell,I hope this isn't creepy, but also exist in my, my notebook, right I keep,because I only have so much room in my head for everybody's facts. And sothese are things to where, you know, I can keep this in mind as myrelationships develop with my clients. I might also just build a personalrelationship is a fundamental with Russell and maybe in a week, I'm goingto say, hey, I'm going to smoke my first brisket and I don't even know howto spell a brisket, let alone pick out the right kind of me. What would yousuggest? Give me some advice and no, I'm building a relationship withRussell that isn't like, hello would show bad like to hire some sales right.It's just I'm keeping that connection and that relation ship alive throughsomething different than just work related stuff and that truly for melike we talk about the success that I've had in my sales career and thencertainly with running saM sales it's been that it's because I mastered howto build personal relationships and that is a fundamental in sales that Ithink we really miss out on and is so critical to our success Russell. Whatdo you think? Developing rapport? Absolutely. That's the hardest partwith being a modern cellar nowadays because Sam what was what would happenthe past if I'm selling to you? We're going to go out for breakfast, lunch ordinner sometime before the big meeting. So at least we can have casualconversation over a meal over a coffee and we can at least developed that werepoor point. Now we're doing that set up and how often you get a chance todevelop that rapport. And oftentimes we're teaching our reps, you know,don't start the call with, hey, how are you doing or even something, how theweather is. I like to have something fun and which is whichever breakfastthis morning, what's unplanned for lunch because that's something that'salready on top of somebody's mind. They can share it. It's not all that secretand you can start a conversation that way because it is a bit different. Andthen all of a sudden you've got a reason to ask and say, you know, thatfavor shouldn't be. We'll see him. Can you introduce me to the ceo? I knowyou're the ceo, but oftentimes I get that because as a rep, I'm trying totriangulate, don't put that onus on them. It's like, hey, I know here'syour Ceo. I know here's something I'm going to say that asking to later. Canyou give me that recipe that you talked about for a really good pineapplesmoothie that you had for breakfast? That actually sounds pretty good. Whatdo you put in that helped me out? Because I'm trying to lose some weight.So that's an ask is a wreck you can use because people love doing favors.That's an easy favor and that helped start that report. So modern selling,building that relationship, it's really, really hard nowadays and that's wherewe need some of these new techniques to not just jump right in for, hey, how'sit going? We cover the pleasantries. I'm going to jump right into my pitchand I hope it hooks. Well, let's, let's even talk about that as a fundamentalto how we start a discovery call. Right?...

So, our initial call exactly what youjust said and about the weather. So the weather, right? The weather, whensomebody's like that was the weather and wherever you live, I'm like, youclearly done absolutely no research on me and you have absolutely nothing elseto talk about. And what it really says to me too is you lack executivepresence, right? Because you're defaulting to a crutch of likesomething that you might say at a networking event where the show me, youknow, me really comes into that. I'll tell you the amount of interviews thatI get on for our clients when we're interviewing a S VPs of sales, VPs ofsales enablement and people say, So, where are you based? And I'm like, areyou for real? Like, it's on my linkedin profile. You obviously did no research.Where'd you go to school? It's on my Lincoln. When were you at Lincoln? Ohmy God. Right. So think about that. Like how are you starting yourdiscovery call that initial call with somebody. It should be focused onreporter building at the beginning and it's not a science, right? We can say60 60 minutes, 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 60 seconds. 120 seconds. I've hadreport building that goes on for 28 minutes. And then we're like, crap, wedidn't talk anything about business, right? Like we need to reschedule ourcall. But I'll do this all day long. If it gets me to build a relationship withsomebody. But the other thing that I would say is kind of the again, thefundamental remember one as an A. E that you are driving this call, Right?So if I am having a call with Russell, right? Even as the ceo of my company,I'm in the sales person, it is my call to run. So if I get on and I'm buildingreport with Russell and then like I don't make that quick transition when Iknow that the report building is done and it's time to shift to business.What I'm doing there is I'm making Russell probably feel a littleuncomfortable and then he's going to be like, so, okay, so listen, what did youwant to talk to me about it? I'm like, good. And then I stammer and an awful.So just remember this is your call to run, shifting, shifting from reporterbuilding to the next initial question. It's really important that you nailthat timing and you don't have an awkward two or three seconds of silence.But the other thing I would say is a fundamental right where we really needto get away from what we traditionally do is how to have a proper conversationon a discovery call and how to kick that off with the right question. To me,a discovery call is about is one thing we have one thing to do and it's tosolve the challenge that the person has. So if I get on the phone with Russelland I asked him my 17 questions and I try to get banned out of him, I'mreally selfishly focusing on myself, right. Russell might have gotten on thecolumn once sam sales to fly him to the moon. Well, we don't do that, but Ineed to ask him what he's looking to do, right? So I can say we don't do that.But I know someone who does his name is Jeff Bezos and his earnings report wasnot good this week. Just make But think about your first question. What thefirst question is that we always default to is Russell. Okay, so again,thanks so much for making time for us. I can tell you a million things aboutsaM sales, but I'd love to hear about show pad first. Tell me about your teamchallenges initiatives. You have love to hear about the overall landscapefirst, if that's okay and I just want to focus on three things here and thenRussell. I'd love your feedback on that. I'm saying I could tell you a millionthings. That's part one, but first part two, I'd love to hear about show padand what you need to think about here. Using a little eq is when I say that torustle, Rustle might also be like, um, what I want, I don't know what to tellyou. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to fill the air there. Tell meabout your team, challenges initiatives. I'm going to basically talk So he canhave some space to think without being put on the spot and then I'm gonnafinish with if that's OK. So I'm asking for permission nine times out of 10 I'mgoing to get totally, here's everything you need to know. One time out of 10.I'm going to get someone who says I know about Sam sales, I know what youguys do. You come highly recommended. I just have some questions and then wecan move forward. But that way I can basically say, so why the hell did youshow up to this call without having to say that? And it can be in a reallypolite way. So Russell as somebody who has pitched all day every day, howwould you receive that question? How how would that impact you? No, I loveit. Especially if you can go on tools like linkedin sales navigator andeasily see what kind of stage over yet Are we going through rapid growth andhiring or not? Which means we're...

...probably looking at efficiency. Can'task that question. Like a census taker and say which one of these two appliesto, but you can suss that out through natural conversation. Say what's goingon? You guys looks like you're hiring a lot, does it looks like you're hiring alot in sales marketing. Again, if you've got zoom info or any of theseother tools, you can find that information out. So don't ask thequestions that are obvious where you located, what's going on. Ask thequestions that are leading into the answers you want, which is I need toknow as a sales rep. How much time should I invest in this lead at thistime? Because I really need to find the answer to three questions. Will theybuy, Will they buy from me? And will they buy Now? Oftentimes reps they tryto jump right into, will they buy now pitch my product, Let's get him to buynow that those days are done, you've got to get the trust and everything youtalked about, get reports. You can get trust when you have trust. You gethonest answers and you get deeper answers and that's really what we'repoor buildings about so that you're not getting the census, taking answers thatgo into my med pick fields into Salesforce and then I can figure outwhat am I going to do by the way? I'm a fan of med Pick. I'm just not a fan ofhow most companies do it when they bring up a Salesforce opportunity andtry to say, So who is the champion? And what's your decision timeline? Andwhat's your decision criteria? Like? Come on, I can fill this on a form on awebsite marketing a PM me all day long for that. And that that is where themodern selling comes into play, Right? And making sure that we kind of changedour methodology is that it's not just about filling these things out. It'snot about establishing band on the first call, it's not about workingthrough the 17 questions we have. We can get all that information bylearning how to have a better conversation. And frankly, when I askyou, like, tell me about everything about show pad, What I'm basically alsodoing is selfishly making sure to your exact point, Russell that this call isworth my time and to move to a second call. Right? So if you say like we justwent through a funding round and we have $100 million suspend and here areinitiatives. I'm like, yes, let's just go and go on. Or if you're like ourbudgets are tight, we just laid off, you know, 50% of our staff. But I'mlooking for some trading anyway. I'm like, might not be a fit for us, right?I want to get that information out so I can do one of the most important thingsas an 80 which is qualify or even more importantly disqualify and move on,which I know sounds harsh, but you know what we mean? Tom what, what are yourthoughts, their takeaways there? I absolutely agree. And when I wasmanaging a team, it would drive me crazy. Just going back to your piece onbuilding report, when someone would say, Hey, you know where you located? Ohyeah, I'm in Chicago or whatever and not take the 12 seconds to look ontheir length in. It's like the weather is actually not even the worst question.The worst question is like, where are you located? Because that you couldeasily find. And then like, okay, then you have to go to Weather dot com tosee that if you really were that curious, if you were curious about thesnowstorm there or something or something was really going on that wasworth bringing up. But then there's so many other things that you can uh, youcan bring up and try to, you know, kind of separate yourself as a ref. There'sone last piece that I wanted to get into with both of you when I thinkabout modern sales in the way that it's going is you know previously when youwanted to learn from your network or you wanted to meet new people or learnfrom people in adjacent industries you go to a conference right? Or you hit upyour roller dex maybe be a friend of a friend or something like that or you gojoin like A. I. S. P. And there'll be a once a month event and now it's likeconstant overload of sales communities whether it's a slack group whether it'sevents whether it's other linked in groups or all these different ways thatyou can connect with people. It's an unlimited way that you can people youcan meet in some curious as a sales leader how would you recommend you knowleveraging these in the most effective way but obviously not letting that takeup your entire day because you also have, you know, your job to do. I'msuper, super biased, obviously being, being a Lincoln brand ambassador andhaving worked there and everything, but I would say the number one thing Iwould always recommend eight is just get on linkedin. I was just having aconversation with Ricky and a and a company that's a client of ours calledTouch Cast, he was like, where should I put my time and I'm like get onlinkedin, here's the thing that I think is important, right in terms ofconnecting in terms of engaging with other people, in terms of networking,Lincoln is fantastic for this. Like if...

...you think about what I get access to,if Russell post something on linkedin, let's say, he's got an opinion, anarticle, a piece, piece of subject matter expertise. What I can do is I'msomebody that's selling to Russell is I can go and I can monitor the contentthat is posting. I can use sales navigator to do that, but then I can goand I can comment on his post and here's what I'm going to do one. I'mdoing Russell huge favor because I'm adding a comment to his post, which ishelping exponentially increase the the exposure of his post to. I'm hopefullycommenting. Not with that's a great thought Russell, but instead withsomething smart that's in my head, that allows me to form Better Report withRussell and also remind him that I exist and I hope to God he hires mesomeday. I also get exposure not only to Russell but everyone else who hascommented on his post, the great majority of my network and Russell'snetwork. So with five minutes of using my brain and keyboard skills, I can getin front of Russell, get in front of his audience, my audience and the otherpeople have commented four audiences to get exposure that is massive, right?Like think about the the other things that you could do there to scale, Iwould also just think about where are your customers? Right? Not all of yourcustomers are on linkedin. Maybe you guys are consumer base, right? Insteadof B two B is instagram where you should be is facebook where you shouldbe. Should you be more on twitter? You've got to think about that. Notevery medium is right for everybody, but if you are in B two B tech sales,holy moly, you are missing out. If you're not engaging and posting contenton linkedin so easy as far as communities go, definitely linked inits great find who to follow, ask your peers, ask your boss, you're kind ofgetting in the same mindset that leads into the communities, you know, there'sno lack of sales and sales enablement communities, but the challenge there iswhich ones and I encourage leaders to make sure identify two or three of yourteam, because if you don't, they're going to go out on their own and it mayconflict with what you're trying to do with your messaging methodology andother skills. They may just pick up things that aren't necessarily bad.There is not applicable to what you're trying to do as a leader. So as aleader of the most important thing you can do is help guide people and ensurethat you can do that just through simple sharing. You know, here'ssomething that tom shared, that's all about how to call SAn Francisco theright thing, don't call it SAN Fran, don't call it frisco, Call it S F forthe city. That was one of our conversations we had. So these arethings you want to make sure again as a leader, you're setting that culture andit's very, very easy to just open the floodgates of too many culture inputswith all these communities that kind of dilute the message. You're trying todrive in your company and as a leader. But back to Lincoln best thing you cando is just start with some micro engagement of just beyond. Hey, that'sgreat, that's awesome. But be open and honest, how does it apply to you? Andthe other thing I encourage I see a lot of is just don't be afraid to sharesome failures after you've gone out there, that's where we learn ourgreatest lessons when we have challenges and I'll share one againwhere we've got to do something different with modern selling. We're anenablement have done the wrong thing for a long time, which is we get peopleright on the company, drink the kool aid, get drunk, talking about thecompany and the product. And then here's the pitch deck. Were going tocertify what's the first thing they do in all their sales calls, Yak about thecompany, talk about the product, talk about the nerd knobs and the productfeatures instead of knowing enough baseline and say, let's talk about thecustomer. So we're part of the problem in enabling, because we're enablingpeople the wrong way to get to that modern selling. We almost need to set abaseline and say your job is to connect the dots, not through a simple bookthat you go 1234 connecting the dots. It's here's the landscape, it'scomplicated. The buyer journey is really, really more confusing Now, morethan ever help guide the customer, not down your path down there past. Icouldn't agree more. You know, we did a, there was a series we did earlier thisyear, might've been last year where um, reps came on to do a Discovery call anda demo in front of a live audience. And then we had guest judges that ratedthem every episode. And I remember one who presented a deck for a company. Weall know very, very, very well. And when he presented the deck, he had afew of us is the judges that were, you...

...know, the cso, the C R O etcetera, CFO.And we said the separately isn't kidding it For us. We've got somespecific questions and the rep said if I could just finish my presentation andthen maybe it would help you. But nothing in the deck was relevant towhat we were talking about. And the feedback we gave was like you hadengaged decision makers who would engage C suite right? That we're askingnew questions and wanted to go in a different direction as leaders. It isso important that we enable them right to have those conversations to be ableto know what to say. And I think part of it too is a lot of sales reps, rightfor leaders listening out there. A lot of sales reps just aren't exposed tothe kinds of conversations we're having in our meetings, Right? So how do wegive that that exposure? Do your a s have any idea what a cr no cares aboutwhat S. V. P. Of this cares about? Do they know the things that are importantand how they think and are they actually equipped to be able to havethose executive conversations? Because all if all they're going to do ispresent a deck, right? We're never going to get anywhere because we'rejust tap dancing and then saying what you think and hoping for the bestversus saying tell me what you need and how I could be consultative and helpyou get there totally. Yeah. I think that's a huge lesson that you don'twant to skip over. It's like you're on a call and you have your pitch readyand you've been practicing it for three weeks and then the decision makerwhoever you're talking to Takes you off the path that you are planning for thatcall to not say oh yeah I'll circle back on that in 25 minutes once it'snot even relevant anymore. Just address the question. And if if the talk goesin a different way, that's more valuable for them, then that's great.Then, you know, throw your deck in the, in the garbage, you know, because the,the only reason you're preparing a deck or a demo anyway is to be relevant andactionable for whoever you're trying to sell to, you know, try to, you know,move the experience along and help them solve a problem. So there's another wayyou can do that. This is just my opinion. But there's another way youcan do that and it's answering their question going down a rabbit hole. Moretimes than not. I think that's a better way to go to me. This is also thebeauty not to pitch you guys, but the beauty of gang is that you can havethose recordings, right? You're welcome tom. Uh, I'm excited for my 12 cents.Thank you so much. You know, but you as an A. E also need to be vulnerable togo to your boss and say I bombed this. I want to listen to this call together.I want to pull it apart, piece by piece. I didn't know what to say here. I needto do this and I know a lot of a US, right, that we talked to her. Like myboss would have no idea how to handle this. This is also where it's reallyimportant that you build like sponsorship and mentorship internally.So you have people who can go to and say, hey, you have a brain and you knowhow to sell it. Can you help me out and learn, right? Or have coaches that youcan go to outside of the organization but be vulnerable so that you know howto handle that? Like I don't think you've got it all figured out, right?Even if you're a top performer, right? I'm sure tom you are an excellent,excellent performer internally and I'm sure you're always like, pull thisapart. How do I get better? Right. And russell to your, you know, the side onyou guys for enablement, Like you've got such a great opportunity to supportthese reps is they're learning again, foundations. And then even beyond that,you're right that I love the call recording because a lot of reps outthere don't have the skill, but they have the will and that's where again,being vulnerable and thinking about call recording not as a blame trackingsystem, but a performance improvement system. And oftentimes we're afraid todo that because you watch an NFL game boy, these guys get torn apart formaking microsecond decisions of why didn't they do this or do that? Thoseare the top performance. Listen, I'm just russell the rep. I'm very simple.Help me understand where three ways I could have gone in this conversation.If if we're watching the video, that's a breakdown that we can do, we can lookat different ways and techniques to improve that different things andhabits that I probably have. I'm not consciously aware of. So how do I getconsciously competent? It's having somebody that can be that coach and itcould be my manager, it can be my sales enablement person that I've gone, staffappear or even better if you got a sales engineer, if you work in tech,those are the best people that can take...

...a step back and they're always thinkinglike that. They're always listening and say, you know, here's something youshould have thought about or should have done differently. And again, asreps were always very eager to sell, sell sell talk, talk talk storyteller.But the most important thing we can bring to the table isn't mastery of ourproduct in our company's story, it's empathy and it comes with knowledge ofus and knowledge of the customer and connecting those dots. And can I justsay to as a sales leader, the difference for me in a rep whoproactively comes to me and says, I know I could have done this better. Canyou pull this apart? Can you help me grow versus a rep who never asks forthat? Probably has room for improvement. It's so it's a different ballgameworking with the first rep because that's somebody who's proactivelyasking, who knows they want to grow, who's being vulnerable, who's puttingthemselves out there versus being the leader, who has to then go to the B rapand be like, hey, I think we've got some room for improvement, right? Andpossibly having difficult conversations having to come up with a guarded fistsup rep, it's just a different ball game. So if you're looking also to getpromoted or you're like, how do I stand out? It's an easy way to stand out, isto be proactive and ask for that, that coaching, you'll make your boss's lifeeasier and you'll really show depth of character of what you want to achieve.I love it in brussels, just so you know, I will be quoting you on, going on,taking call, recording from a blame tracking to a performance improvementtool. I love that. I wrote it down, gonna be using on a call today. Um sobefore we, before we wrap up, I appreciate both your time and we couldprobably talk for five more hours about modern selling this to be a continuedthing that you continue to talk about different webinars and on linked in andjust continued conversation. So maybe you could each take a second and justlet the folks listening, No, where's the best place to connect with you andlearn from you. Maybe SAM you can kick it off. Talk about linked in. You know,I know you're doing some really interesting things that the BDR hotlineas well. Thanks. Yeah, you guys, you can find me obviously on Lincoln. Justsearch for the hashtag SAm sales are websites also a great resource. We haveyou can basically learn everything you need to know that's in my brain forfree by just putting everything together on our website. SaM salesconsulting dot com. We have a newsletter that goes out every fridayare open rate is over 50% every week. So I feel like we've got some goodcontent in there that keeps people coming back for more and yeah, thankson the BDR hotline to you guys for any of you that are searching for betterways to build the foundations of your sales team or that are str leaders thatwake up to 47 miss slack messages every morning from your teens that need help.We run this incredible hotline to teach your BDR s on a daily basis fromeverything that we know daily on the field, so feel free to hit us up aboutthat too and russell a facet to yes, the recommendations of SAM find me onlinkedin. I'm a customer SAM. So I went and subscribe to the shorts, which Ithink are great because micro learning is the new enablement. You know, we'vegot to be able to get some information out to folks in 15 minutes or less.It's a really bad habit because it's very easy to get stuck in kind of a 60minute, 30 minute voiceover slides, but get engaged on linked in. You'll see alot of stuff on modern selling with show pipe, what we're trying to doagain, transforming a lot of reps that aren't comfortable flipping on thecamera, recording themselves, having their meetings recorded, having otherssee that. But the more you have that, that will to win, you'll realizethere's a lot of tools available to help you develop skill. It's not aboutthe activity tracking and try and do more and more activity. It's about moreeffective. I love it. The only way to get to where you want to go is tochange things up and to continue to improve and involve and Salmon Russelland the people to follow. So everyone definitely check them out on therespective linkedin's and SAM's newsletter and everywhere you can learnabout SAM sales and uh show pad as well. Thanks so much for the time. This isgreat. Thanks Tom. Thanks Russell. Thank you. Thanks for checking out thatpodcast. Quick reminder to give me a follow or connect on linkedin. I'm tomAlaimo, I work over at gong and co host this podcast for you. Every monday. Onemore shout out to our sponsor, drift the new way businesses by frombusinesses. You can learn more and get...

...the conversation started at drift dotcom until next week. Get after it. We'll see you next monday. Say something. Mhm.

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