The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 10 months ago

Ep. 119: Modern Sales w/ Sam McKenna and Russell Wurth

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep. 119: Modern Sales w/ Sam McKenna and Russell Wurth

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday) series hosted by Tom Alaimo. 

All right, everyone thank God it's monday. Welcome back to the Pavilion podcast where revenue leaders come to learn the tips, the tricks, the tactics that they need to be successful in their role. It's monday morning. Thank you for joining. I'm your host Tom Alamo. Money over a dog doing some work here for Pavilion. Trying to help you folks out before we get to the great content of today. Let's give a quick shout to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by the lovely people adrift. More than 50,000 businesses use drift to grow revenue and increased customer lifetime value faster drift, helps their customers align sales marketing on a single platform to deliver a unified customer experience where people are free to have a conversation with the business at any time on their terms, learn more at drift dot com. So for today, it's a unique episode that we've got two guests that are joining me on the podcast. Um super excited for this one. So first up and it's all together. So we have Sam McKenna also known as hashtag SAM sales. SaM runs her own. She's the founder of SAM sales consulting, you know, also an advisor at multiple different tech startup. She's an L. P. At the go to Market Fund, she's a guest lecture at Northwestern University. She's a board member at the sales assembly. Former head of sales of enterprises linked in VP of sales of enterprise that on 20 for the list goes on and on. SaM joins us with just an incredible pedigree of knowledge around the sales craft and great energy. Meanwhile, her companion here is Russell Worth Russell is the VP of sales enablement over at show pad formerly ran enablement at at places like net scope silence operative, just to name a few, one of the most well respected names and resources in the enablement community. And so us three, we got together to talk about modern sales and what that means from the modern sales rep to a modern sales leader. Everything in between that you need, we know that sales is evolving. We know that you need to change and continue to grow and evolve and we get into the tactics of how to do so. So let's get straight into that conversation with me, Sam and Russell. Let's go. All right, Sam Russell. Good morning, Happy friday. Welcome to the Pavilion podcast. How you doing? Good morning. Great to meet you guys and hang out today, having a great day watching SAM's background here with the pineapple. Kind of hungry for a good breakfast. It's supposed to be friendly and hospitable russell. Hopefully that is giving you that, that impression right there. Listen, pineapple juice, it's nothing. But you just need a little Tequila vodka and then we'll really be having a great friday a couple hours until then there you go. Before we get to all, all of the good, meaty stuff about sales. I gotta call out because Sam, when I emailed you the other day, I got a great out of office from you that I think it was what you're 10th anniversary of your 30th birthday or however you phrase that how are the festivities? They were? They were really good. So it took like one of my first vacations in Covid, which looks like it's going to be curtailed yet again, but went to the, went to the Bahamas celebrated and in style and tried to disconnect as much as I can, which I never get to do. But yeah, I feel like I'm physically walking into a new decade, you guys being 40 is like a totally, totally different thing. You've got a long way to get there until you're there tom but it's awesome. Pretty, pretty excited. I feel like the celebrations never end right now. Do you do something interesting? Like, I feel like with a big birthday like that, like did you get super reflective and start writing things down or you just like, now, I feel pretty good about where I'm at with life and you're celebrating having a margarita. It's the weirdest thing, right? Like for any of you listening, who have been in the same position, there's part of me that's like, oh my God, I've lived maybe half my life already, I only have 50% left to go, but then the other part of me is like, ok, so let's say if I'm...

...going to retire at 65 okay, that's great, so wait a minute. Oh my God, that's 25 more years that I have to work, right? So it's like on one side of it and like there's no, I have like no time left, I'd better start living. And then on the other side it feels like an eternity. But I will say, I think that there's a, there's a great reflection on the idea of like, we really have one life to live depending on your personal belief structure, but we have one life to live, right? And so go live it. Take the vacation by the shoes, eat the cheese by the things that you want to buy. Stop waiting until the next day. I, I think that's kind of where my head's been on. I love it, I love it. I'm fired up with two minutes into this thing. We could just, we could just cut it right there, that's all, that's great. So we're here today to talk through modern sales, which is something that all three of us are passionate about. And I think anyone that's paying attention to the sales landscape knows that like, the way that you need to do things today is not the way things are done 10 years ago. And the way that you do things today probably won't work 5 to 10 years from now. You need to continually evolve and adapt. So I'll turn to you russell first. Maybe you just kind of kick us off when you're thinking about modern sales, like pretty broad subject, like what comes to mind to you as being super important. Well, you know, just how much has transformed the story Sammy. Your birthday took me back to what I did on Monday. I turned 46, but I actually took in a moment, I found something interesting. When did I get in the sales? It was about 34 years ago when I first turned 12. I have an employment contract that I signed to deliver papers but also have the sell papers because I'm walking by houses. I might as well deliver extra papers. But it was when I turned, it was on my birthday, I was able to go in and sign up and get my very first job. I first sales job as a delivery person. But a lot of times we just get stuck in some of these bad habits because sales has had a few transformations but I think none bigger sam you alluded to than just the past couple of years, you know, a little bit before the pandemic. But absolutely starting last year and you know, I keep thinking back of some of these sales movies, we all know them glengarry glen ross or even sales shows like Mad Men. And I come back to how modern selling needs to transform from Don draper walking in. He's got the sales deck here. He's got the kodiak carousel of visuals, right? He's got 30 slides, he's going to take people through and and tell them a story and he's got their attention because everybody's just leaning in, Nobody's doing that anymore. I mean, Sam I can see like after about 30 seconds to a minute people want to jump, in right. totally don't want to wait for the whole deck. Well, and I think you make such a good point, right? Like even about how quickly sales is changing, I think about when we started to get in this pandemic, how many organizations reach out to us and said, okay, we need training on digital selling. Like, what do we do now that we can't go in person? What do we do now? That we can't go to conferences and things like that? And what I love kind of about what happened with this, is it really forced people to take their heads out of the sand and think about all the things that they should have been doing all along with digital selling. Right. My first question was, what do you do in between those in person meetings? What do you do after the conference? How did you guys stay in touch before? And they're like, what we really didn't, We just waited for the contract to come in and I'm like, oh my God, right. So it's it's sales has changed so much, right? But I think a lot of the things that we should have been doing over these last five years with digital touches, nurturing campaigns, social selling have been present in some of our top performers and now because of the pandemic, so many people have said like crap, okay, we finally need to do this right and to get in again or to catch up with the times this transformation. It's not hard. It's just different. I think that's the thing, right? Because I'm seeing the same thing with people that they want to transform. They just don't know how because they're still clinging a little bit of old ways. You know, and you have to acknowledge to simple truths, video is the new fax machines, social as the new phone book. You know that I can't go through thumb through the phone book and do cold calls that way. I love your phrase, you know, show me you know me because we're ripping a bit before that somebody actually reached out to me and I get a lot of calls from BDR is trying to sell me tools for sales productivity. Somebody actually showed me that they...

...knew me by seeing something not on linkedin, but on twitter and my twitter profiles right there. It's the only place that talks about barbecue that I love to barbecue. So they put that in your intro email, it was very, very simple. No marketing automation system can do that. Of course, when I have a conversation because you did just a little bit of work to know me, then you're probably going to do the work it entails to know my company, know about my problems, my challenges, the people I'm working with, my peers to help me build A business case to do something that's as simple as it is. And I mean, right, so we're seeing that with social being the new phone book, there is information out there to set that hook and get interest and show as a rep you're going to put forth a little bit of effort to know somebody versus the effort to master a pitch deck of 30 slides that maybe I sell you that way. I couldn't agree with you more. And I in fact, I just posted about this today about the art of personal relationships, building personal relationships. So we know that show me, you know me is really important. If you guys haven't heard that concept before, it's my tagline, it's the acronym, I would have tattooed on my arm if I ever had the guts to get a tattoo, but it's the idea of just doing our research on someone before we reach out so that we can make an impact, right and stand out and be different, right? And how do we do that? Like? Yes, you can look at linkedin if let's say Russell had nothing on linkedin, where else is he? Is he on twitter? Has he recently spoken on a podcast? Did you speak at a conference as they published a blog, Right? There are things that we can do to just show that person that we know them and earn the right to a meeting and now we also want to be careful, right? Don't go on instagram unless they have $100,000. Don't go on facebook and be like you and your wife looks great on the beach because that's really gritty. Don't do that stuff. But just think about how you can stand out and you know what tom I'll give a shout out to somebody on your team. Actually had gone Michael Pearlman, Do you know who this is? Yeah, you're talking about the linkedin post from yesterday. You're sure you know I am right. So that that went viral. It made its way around Michael Pearlman took a second to draw a cartoon of who is it? Morgan Kirkland write and draw a cartoon of how gone and autodesk could work together. Uh, you know, took 15 minutes, probably more to draw this cartoon, send it in the mail and got a meeting. Is that scalable? No. Do I care that I'm going to spend 20 minutes and five bucks of male of postage right to get a meeting with somebody that I care about? No, I'm going to do that all day long. If I can spend three hours doing quality prospecting versus spray and pray spam and all kinds of crap without showing, showing me, you know me, I'm going to do that all day long versus you know, the stuff that just is spam and hopes for the best totally as an individual contributor. I think the examples are becoming more visible of people like Michael that are doing those types of things. Whether it's just personalizing the first line of an email to what Russell's, you know, doing with brisket or whatever it might be too, you know, something as creative as drawing. But I'm curious like from a leader perspective, right, if you're a VP of sales or C. R. O, how do you make that part of the culture, how do you systematically make change versus just letting a handful of a player's kind of set the stage for doing creative work while everyone else doesn't adapt, Russell. I'll defer to you too. At first, in your and your role. I think you've got probably great insights here. Yeah, it's a tough one because I think we put in in the past couple years, a lot of systems to track activity and you lived at the sand, but managers, they default to activity tracking how many a pond touches calls did you make touches did you make? Because they've got some formula they're using. But the formula is broken. We have to acknowledge that it's quality over quantity. And I think the more that you can look at quality things, you can do unique things you can do that's going to net results because right now that predictable formula and I think we've seen it before as if I have, you know, X number of calls versus Y. Number of touches. I end up with maybe a 1% or 2% connect rate. Maybe I can increase it by half a percentage point. If I tweak my messaging instead, just say, you know what maybe something's broken here because we probably need to think about who is our target? How are we going to target them? How do we get personal? Because nobody ai is going to replace that in terms of that spray and pray approach. I think there's still a need...

...to do some of that to get some air cover and awareness. But this is one of the things we're trying to do within our own environment is get away from the old way of how many times did you run through the pitch, check and run through the demo script and I'll do a call out right now. What we're trying to do and transform show pad and our customers is doing nonlinear conversations. If you have a show pad rep, take you through a pitch deck, you call me directly because they're not to do that. To take you through a guided experience. The things that we can then say, Hey, let me take five minutes to a set up and then you tell me where you want to go. And that's the way we can actually measure something's there. It's not as accurate as measuring all these activity based things, but it's more impactful. We're seeing the results for us and some of our customers because it requires the human elements, not just the tom Anton kind of plug somebody into the matrix of the BDR call script and then just go really, really fast saying you look like you have to add some things there. Yeah. And I think tom like you, you said it perfectly right the beginning, like how do leaders do this? Right. And that's exactly it, it starts with leadership, right? We know that whatever comes from the top down is what we're going to go to and I think a lot of the times we're still focused Russells point on how many calls did you do? And what was the conversion and did you connect and all that stuff? Because we just don't know what else to do, right? And a lot of people are just fearful if I move off track, if I a B. Test something different, right and it fails, will I lose my job? Will I lose my bonus? Will we not have quota? And what I would say is just what Russell said, the focus on quality over quantity is so so important, especially when we are trying to get to mid market enterprise buyers when you're trying to get to the Russells of the world, a sales, e email and a you know with the subject line that's just like you know I. T. Cloud computing and then Russell, I hope this finds you and your family doing well. Russell's not even going to open up that email tom you're not even going to open up that email, right? Because we know it's sales E and we know that the person sent it to us and 5000 other people, what I would say to that I think is really being missed of a modern way to sell and how to be quality over quantity is just to be smart about the data we already have. Right? So what context do we have? What clients do we have that have changed jobs? Who do we know that could facilitate an introduction. Right. If Russell, let's say was one of top of our top saM sales clients and he said I love you guys, I'll refer you to anybody. You let me know I as an a E or as a leader, have an opportunity to do two things. I can say, oh my God, happy years. Fantastic. Russell's going to keep me in mind. And I can say, do you know anybody that you could introduce me to? And Russell is going to think about who he's talked to this week and who he talks to the most often, he might, you know, do some math, carry the two and be like, not right now, but I'll keep you in mind and I'll be like, oh my God, that's great. Or I can be smart about the data that I've got in front of me and I can say that's amazing, you're so generous, thank you so much. Can I take a look through your linkedin connections and can I send you a few names back that you could introduce me to. Meeting. Meeting. Meeting? I'm taking the control into my own hands as an I. E. Right. And I'm being proactive versus getting excited. That Russell's going to keep me in mind, which basically after the weekend he's going to barely remember my name. That's not true. But right, we got to be smart about that data also, just a quick thing, right? On the job hopper piece. I'm not marketing. So that's as creative as a name as I can get. But if Russell hires me a show pad and then he moves jobs, I should monitor that. Like it's going out of style, right? I should check to see where he's going and then I should say congrats on your new job. I'm sure drinking from the firehose in eight weeks. Could we talk about how saM sales could help you wherever you go? And he's going to say thanks. That's awesome. Also, thanks for your EQ of not requesting a meeting on day one. You, you know, presumptuous aid, but there's that kind of stuff that we can make such a take such advantage of. And just even think about that show. Pat is an organization gang is an organization who are your clients and where have they changed jobs? I bet we don't know the answers to those questions and it is an immediate hit for us to be able to get leads and meetings so quickly versus just trying a new A B. M. Campaign or something like that. I'll take a breath. It's so...

...excited about this stuff you guys. I love it. I love it. And something that we were riffing on before we started recording was like focusing on the fundamentals, right? If I was to coach someone on that wanted to get in better shape, right? Like you could do the 10 day juice cleanse that might work for a little bit and then you revert back to your old ways. Or you could maybe start to build a habit of eating healthier, exercising three days a week, whatever it might be. And in my opinion, I feel that the habits and the fundamentals can get you super far and pretty much anything that you're trying to do and I know that was something that you're both kind of agreeing on it. And some of the examples that you both just laid out, like Sam the keeping tabs on where your customers then go to different jobs, right? Or not just asking for any referral, but going through the link didn't connect connections, making a specific request. Hey, I see you, you know, you and Russell used to work together at show Pat, you know, I think we can help them with what, you know, the solution that we have. Like, would you be willing to make an introduction or could I, you know, reference your name and an email, would you be okay with that? Like the fundamentals, I'd love to hear you talk about that versus just like the next shiny object that might be hitting your desk totally well, and I'll kind of just tie it back to what we were talking about with, you know, the show me, you know me and relationship building is one of the fun fundamentals. This is exactly what I posted about today on linkedin. Being able to build a relationship at a human level with somebody, whether it's figuring out that they love, you know, barbecue and brisket, whether it's, you know, for Russell, I know I know about his family, I know how many Children he has, I know that he loves national lampoon's christmas vacation, like I do, like there are things that I have now learned about Russell that you know, exist in my head, but frankly Russell, I hope this isn't creepy, but also exist in my, my notebook, right I keep, because I only have so much room in my head for everybody's facts. And so these are things to where, you know, I can keep this in mind as my relationships develop with my clients. I might also just build a personal relationship is a fundamental with Russell and maybe in a week, I'm going to say, hey, I'm going to smoke my first brisket and I don't even know how to spell a brisket, let alone pick out the right kind of me. What would you suggest? Give me some advice and no, I'm building a relationship with Russell that isn't like, hello would show bad like to hire some sales right. It's just I'm keeping that connection and that relation ship alive through something different than just work related stuff and that truly for me like we talk about the success that I've had in my sales career and then certainly with running saM sales it's been that it's because I mastered how to build personal relationships and that is a fundamental in sales that I think we really miss out on and is so critical to our success Russell. What do you think? Developing rapport? Absolutely. That's the hardest part with being a modern cellar nowadays because Sam what was what would happen the past if I'm selling to you? We're going to go out for breakfast, lunch or dinner sometime before the big meeting. So at least we can have casual conversation over a meal over a coffee and we can at least developed that were poor point. Now we're doing that set up and how often you get a chance to develop that rapport. And oftentimes we're teaching our reps, you know, don't start the call with, hey, how are you doing or even something, how the weather is. I like to have something fun and which is whichever breakfast this morning, what's unplanned for lunch because that's something that's already on top of somebody's mind. They can share it. It's not all that secret and you can start a conversation that way because it is a bit different. And then all of a sudden you've got a reason to ask and say, you know, that favor shouldn't be. We'll see him. Can you introduce me to the ceo? I know you're the ceo, but oftentimes I get that because as a rep, I'm trying to triangulate, don't put that onus on them. It's like, hey, I know here's your Ceo. I know here's something I'm going to say that asking to later. Can you give me that recipe that you talked about for a really good pineapple smoothie that you had for breakfast? That actually sounds pretty good. What do you put in that helped me out? Because I'm trying to lose some weight. So that's an ask is a wreck you can use because people love doing favors. That's an easy favor and that helped start that report. So modern selling, building that relationship, it's really, really hard nowadays and that's where we need some of these new techniques to not just jump right in for, hey, how's it going? We cover the pleasantries. I'm going to jump right into my pitch and I hope it hooks. Well, let's, let's even talk about that as a fundamental to how we start a discovery call. Right?...

So, our initial call exactly what you just said and about the weather. So the weather, right? The weather, when somebody's like that was the weather and wherever you live, I'm like, you clearly done absolutely no research on me and you have absolutely nothing else to talk about. And what it really says to me too is you lack executive presence, right? Because you're defaulting to a crutch of like something that you might say at a networking event where the show me, you know, me really comes into that. I'll tell you the amount of interviews that I get on for our clients when we're interviewing a S VPs of sales, VPs of sales enablement and people say, So, where are you based? And I'm like, are you for real? Like, it's on my linkedin profile. You obviously did no research. Where'd you go to school? It's on my Lincoln. When were you at Lincoln? Oh my God. Right. So think about that. Like how are you starting your discovery call that initial call with somebody. It should be focused on reporter building at the beginning and it's not a science, right? We can say 60 60 minutes, 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 60 seconds. 120 seconds. I've had report building that goes on for 28 minutes. And then we're like, crap, we didn't talk anything about business, right? Like we need to reschedule our call. But I'll do this all day long. If it gets me to build a relationship with somebody. But the other thing that I would say is kind of the again, the fundamental remember one as an A. E that you are driving this call, Right? So if I am having a call with Russell, right? Even as the ceo of my company, I'm in the sales person, it is my call to run. So if I get on and I'm building report with Russell and then like I don't make that quick transition when I know that the report building is done and it's time to shift to business. What I'm doing there is I'm making Russell probably feel a little uncomfortable and then he's going to be like, so, okay, so listen, what did you want to talk to me about it? I'm like, good. And then I stammer and an awful. So just remember this is your call to run, shifting, shifting from reporter building to the next initial question. It's really important that you nail that timing and you don't have an awkward two or three seconds of silence. But the other thing I would say is a fundamental right where we really need to get away from what we traditionally do is how to have a proper conversation on a discovery call and how to kick that off with the right question. To me, a discovery call is about is one thing we have one thing to do and it's to solve the challenge that the person has. So if I get on the phone with Russell and I asked him my 17 questions and I try to get banned out of him, I'm really selfishly focusing on myself, right. Russell might have gotten on the column once sam sales to fly him to the moon. Well, we don't do that, but I need to ask him what he's looking to do, right? So I can say we don't do that. But I know someone who does his name is Jeff Bezos and his earnings report was not good this week. Just make But think about your first question. What the first question is that we always default to is Russell. Okay, so again, thanks so much for making time for us. I can tell you a million things about saM sales, but I'd love to hear about show pad first. Tell me about your team challenges initiatives. You have love to hear about the overall landscape first, if that's okay and I just want to focus on three things here and then Russell. I'd love your feedback on that. I'm saying I could tell you a million things. That's part one, but first part two, I'd love to hear about show pad and what you need to think about here. Using a little eq is when I say that to rustle, Rustle might also be like, um, what I want, I don't know what to tell you. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to fill the air there. Tell me about your team, challenges initiatives. I'm going to basically talk So he can have some space to think without being put on the spot and then I'm gonna finish with if that's OK. So I'm asking for permission nine times out of 10 I'm going to get totally, here's everything you need to know. One time out of 10. I'm going to get someone who says I know about Sam sales, I know what you guys do. You come highly recommended. I just have some questions and then we can move forward. But that way I can basically say, so why the hell did you show up to this call without having to say that? And it can be in a really polite way. So Russell as somebody who has pitched all day every day, how would you receive that question? How how would that impact you? No, I love it. Especially if you can go on tools like linkedin sales navigator and easily see what kind of stage over yet Are we going through rapid growth and hiring or not? Which means we're...

...probably looking at efficiency. Can't ask that question. Like a census taker and say which one of these two applies to, but you can suss that out through natural conversation. Say what's going on? You guys looks like you're hiring a lot, does it looks like you're hiring a lot in sales marketing. Again, if you've got zoom info or any of these other tools, you can find that information out. So don't ask the questions that are obvious where you located, what's going on. Ask the questions that are leading into the answers you want, which is I need to know as a sales rep. How much time should I invest in this lead at this time? Because I really need to find the answer to three questions. Will they buy, Will they buy from me? And will they buy Now? Oftentimes reps they try to jump right into, will they buy now pitch my product, Let's get him to buy now that those days are done, you've got to get the trust and everything you talked about, get reports. You can get trust when you have trust. You get honest answers and you get deeper answers and that's really what we're poor buildings about so that you're not getting the census, taking answers that go into my med pick fields into Salesforce and then I can figure out what am I going to do by the way? I'm a fan of med Pick. I'm just not a fan of how most companies do it when they bring up a Salesforce opportunity and try to say, So who is the champion? And what's your decision timeline? And what's your decision criteria? Like? Come on, I can fill this on a form on a website marketing a PM me all day long for that. And that that is where the modern selling comes into play, Right? And making sure that we kind of changed our methodology is that it's not just about filling these things out. It's not about establishing band on the first call, it's not about working through the 17 questions we have. We can get all that information by learning how to have a better conversation. And frankly, when I ask you, like, tell me about everything about show pad, What I'm basically also doing is selfishly making sure to your exact point, Russell that this call is worth my time and to move to a second call. Right? So if you say like we just went through a funding round and we have $100 million suspend and here are initiatives. I'm like, yes, let's just go and go on. Or if you're like our budgets are tight, we just laid off, you know, 50% of our staff. But I'm looking for some trading anyway. I'm like, might not be a fit for us, right? I want to get that information out so I can do one of the most important things as an 80 which is qualify or even more importantly disqualify and move on, which I know sounds harsh, but you know what we mean? Tom what, what are your thoughts, their takeaways there? I absolutely agree. And when I was managing a team, it would drive me crazy. Just going back to your piece on building report, when someone would say, Hey, you know where you located? Oh yeah, I'm in Chicago or whatever and not take the 12 seconds to look on their length in. It's like the weather is actually not even the worst question. The worst question is like, where are you located? Because that you could easily find. And then like, okay, then you have to go to Weather dot com to see that if you really were that curious, if you were curious about the snowstorm there or something or something was really going on that was worth bringing up. But then there's so many other things that you can uh, you can bring up and try to, you know, kind of separate yourself as a ref. There's one last piece that I wanted to get into with both of you when I think about modern sales in the way that it's going is you know previously when you wanted to learn from your network or you wanted to meet new people or learn from people in adjacent industries you go to a conference right? Or you hit up your roller dex maybe be a friend of a friend or something like that or you go join like A. I. S. P. And there'll be a once a month event and now it's like constant overload of sales communities whether it's a slack group whether it's events whether it's other linked in groups or all these different ways that you can connect with people. It's an unlimited way that you can people you can meet in some curious as a sales leader how would you recommend you know leveraging these in the most effective way but obviously not letting that take up your entire day because you also have, you know, your job to do. I'm super, super biased, obviously being, being a Lincoln brand ambassador and having worked there and everything, but I would say the number one thing I would always recommend eight is just get on linkedin. I was just having a conversation with Ricky and a and a company that's a client of ours called Touch Cast, he was like, where should I put my time and I'm like get on linkedin, here's the thing that I think is important, right in terms of connecting in terms of engaging with other people, in terms of networking, Lincoln is fantastic for this. Like if...

...you think about what I get access to, if Russell post something on linkedin, let's say, he's got an opinion, an article, a piece, piece of subject matter expertise. What I can do is I'm somebody that's selling to Russell is I can go and I can monitor the content that is posting. I can use sales navigator to do that, but then I can go and I can comment on his post and here's what I'm going to do one. I'm doing Russell huge favor because I'm adding a comment to his post, which is helping exponentially increase the the exposure of his post to. I'm hopefully commenting. Not with that's a great thought Russell, but instead with something smart that's in my head, that allows me to form Better Report with Russell and also remind him that I exist and I hope to God he hires me someday. I also get exposure not only to Russell but everyone else who has commented on his post, the great majority of my network and Russell's network. So with five minutes of using my brain and keyboard skills, I can get in front of Russell, get in front of his audience, my audience and the other people have commented four audiences to get exposure that is massive, right? Like think about the the other things that you could do there to scale, I would also just think about where are your customers? Right? Not all of your customers are on linkedin. Maybe you guys are consumer base, right? Instead of B two B is instagram where you should be is facebook where you should be. Should you be more on twitter? You've got to think about that. Not every medium is right for everybody, but if you are in B two B tech sales, holy moly, you are missing out. If you're not engaging and posting content on linkedin so easy as far as communities go, definitely linked in its great find who to follow, ask your peers, ask your boss, you're kind of getting in the same mindset that leads into the communities, you know, there's no lack of sales and sales enablement communities, but the challenge there is which ones and I encourage leaders to make sure identify two or three of your team, because if you don't, they're going to go out on their own and it may conflict with what you're trying to do with your messaging methodology and other skills. They may just pick up things that aren't necessarily bad. There is not applicable to what you're trying to do as a leader. So as a leader of the most important thing you can do is help guide people and ensure that you can do that just through simple sharing. You know, here's something that tom shared, that's all about how to call SAn Francisco the right thing, don't call it SAN Fran, don't call it frisco, Call it S F for the city. That was one of our conversations we had. So these are things you want to make sure again as a leader, you're setting that culture and it's very, very easy to just open the floodgates of too many culture inputs with all these communities that kind of dilute the message. You're trying to drive in your company and as a leader. But back to Lincoln best thing you can do is just start with some micro engagement of just beyond. Hey, that's great, that's awesome. But be open and honest, how does it apply to you? And the other thing I encourage I see a lot of is just don't be afraid to share some failures after you've gone out there, that's where we learn our greatest lessons when we have challenges and I'll share one again where we've got to do something different with modern selling. We're an enablement have done the wrong thing for a long time, which is we get people right on the company, drink the kool aid, get drunk, talking about the company and the product. And then here's the pitch deck. Were going to certify what's the first thing they do in all their sales calls, Yak about the company, talk about the product, talk about the nerd knobs and the product features instead of knowing enough baseline and say, let's talk about the customer. So we're part of the problem in enabling, because we're enabling people the wrong way to get to that modern selling. We almost need to set a baseline and say your job is to connect the dots, not through a simple book that you go 1234 connecting the dots. It's here's the landscape, it's complicated. The buyer journey is really, really more confusing Now, more than ever help guide the customer, not down your path down there past. I couldn't agree more. You know, we did a, there was a series we did earlier this year, might've been last year where um, reps came on to do a Discovery call and a demo in front of a live audience. And then we had guest judges that rated them every episode. And I remember one who presented a deck for a company. We all know very, very, very well. And when he presented the deck, he had a few of us is the judges that were, you...

...know, the cso, the C R O etcetera, CFO. And we said the separately isn't kidding it For us. We've got some specific questions and the rep said if I could just finish my presentation and then maybe it would help you. But nothing in the deck was relevant to what we were talking about. And the feedback we gave was like you had engaged decision makers who would engage C suite right? That we're asking new questions and wanted to go in a different direction as leaders. It is so important that we enable them right to have those conversations to be able to know what to say. And I think part of it too is a lot of sales reps, right for leaders listening out there. A lot of sales reps just aren't exposed to the kinds of conversations we're having in our meetings, Right? So how do we give that that exposure? Do your a s have any idea what a cr no cares about what S. V. P. Of this cares about? Do they know the things that are important and how they think and are they actually equipped to be able to have those executive conversations? Because all if all they're going to do is present a deck, right? We're never going to get anywhere because we're just tap dancing and then saying what you think and hoping for the best versus saying tell me what you need and how I could be consultative and help you get there totally. Yeah. I think that's a huge lesson that you don't want to skip over. It's like you're on a call and you have your pitch ready and you've been practicing it for three weeks and then the decision maker whoever you're talking to Takes you off the path that you are planning for that call to not say oh yeah I'll circle back on that in 25 minutes once it's not even relevant anymore. Just address the question. And if if the talk goes in a different way, that's more valuable for them, then that's great. Then, you know, throw your deck in the, in the garbage, you know, because the, the only reason you're preparing a deck or a demo anyway is to be relevant and actionable for whoever you're trying to sell to, you know, try to, you know, move the experience along and help them solve a problem. So there's another way you can do that. This is just my opinion. But there's another way you can do that and it's answering their question going down a rabbit hole. More times than not. I think that's a better way to go to me. This is also the beauty not to pitch you guys, but the beauty of gang is that you can have those recordings, right? You're welcome tom. Uh, I'm excited for my 12 cents. Thank you so much. You know, but you as an A. E also need to be vulnerable to go to your boss and say I bombed this. I want to listen to this call together. I want to pull it apart, piece by piece. I didn't know what to say here. I need to do this and I know a lot of a US, right, that we talked to her. Like my boss would have no idea how to handle this. This is also where it's really important that you build like sponsorship and mentorship internally. So you have people who can go to and say, hey, you have a brain and you know how to sell it. Can you help me out and learn, right? Or have coaches that you can go to outside of the organization but be vulnerable so that you know how to handle that? Like I don't think you've got it all figured out, right? Even if you're a top performer, right? I'm sure tom you are an excellent, excellent performer internally and I'm sure you're always like, pull this apart. How do I get better? Right. And russell to your, you know, the side on you guys for enablement, Like you've got such a great opportunity to support these reps is they're learning again, foundations. And then even beyond that, you're right that I love the call recording because a lot of reps out there don't have the skill, but they have the will and that's where again, being vulnerable and thinking about call recording not as a blame tracking system, but a performance improvement system. And oftentimes we're afraid to do that because you watch an NFL game boy, these guys get torn apart for making microsecond decisions of why didn't they do this or do that? Those are the top performance. Listen, I'm just russell the rep. I'm very simple. Help me understand where three ways I could have gone in this conversation. If if we're watching the video, that's a breakdown that we can do, we can look at different ways and techniques to improve that different things and habits that I probably have. I'm not consciously aware of. So how do I get consciously competent? It's having somebody that can be that coach and it could be my manager, it can be my sales enablement person that I've gone, staff appear or even better if you got a sales engineer, if you work in tech, those are the best people that can take...

...a step back and they're always thinking like that. They're always listening and say, you know, here's something you should have thought about or should have done differently. And again, as reps were always very eager to sell, sell sell talk, talk talk storyteller. But the most important thing we can bring to the table isn't mastery of our product in our company's story, it's empathy and it comes with knowledge of us and knowledge of the customer and connecting those dots. And can I just say to as a sales leader, the difference for me in a rep who proactively comes to me and says, I know I could have done this better. Can you pull this apart? Can you help me grow versus a rep who never asks for that? Probably has room for improvement. It's so it's a different ballgame working with the first rep because that's somebody who's proactively asking, who knows they want to grow, who's being vulnerable, who's putting themselves out there versus being the leader, who has to then go to the B rap and be like, hey, I think we've got some room for improvement, right? And possibly having difficult conversations having to come up with a guarded fists up rep, it's just a different ball game. So if you're looking also to get promoted or you're like, how do I stand out? It's an easy way to stand out, is to be proactive and ask for that, that coaching, you'll make your boss's life easier and you'll really show depth of character of what you want to achieve. I love it in brussels, just so you know, I will be quoting you on, going on, taking call, recording from a blame tracking to a performance improvement tool. I love that. I wrote it down, gonna be using on a call today. Um so before we, before we wrap up, I appreciate both your time and we could probably talk for five more hours about modern selling this to be a continued thing that you continue to talk about different webinars and on linked in and just continued conversation. So maybe you could each take a second and just let the folks listening, No, where's the best place to connect with you and learn from you. Maybe SAM you can kick it off. Talk about linked in. You know, I know you're doing some really interesting things that the BDR hotline as well. Thanks. Yeah, you guys, you can find me obviously on Lincoln. Just search for the hashtag SAm sales are websites also a great resource. We have you can basically learn everything you need to know that's in my brain for free by just putting everything together on our website. SaM sales consulting dot com. We have a newsletter that goes out every friday are open rate is over 50% every week. So I feel like we've got some good content in there that keeps people coming back for more and yeah, thanks on the BDR hotline to you guys for any of you that are searching for better ways to build the foundations of your sales team or that are str leaders that wake up to 47 miss slack messages every morning from your teens that need help. We run this incredible hotline to teach your BDR s on a daily basis from everything that we know daily on the field, so feel free to hit us up about that too and russell a facet to yes, the recommendations of SAM find me on linkedin. I'm a customer SAM. So I went and subscribe to the shorts, which I think are great because micro learning is the new enablement. You know, we've got to be able to get some information out to folks in 15 minutes or less. It's a really bad habit because it's very easy to get stuck in kind of a 60 minute, 30 minute voiceover slides, but get engaged on linked in. You'll see a lot of stuff on modern selling with show pipe, what we're trying to do again, transforming a lot of reps that aren't comfortable flipping on the camera, recording themselves, having their meetings recorded, having others see that. But the more you have that, that will to win, you'll realize there's a lot of tools available to help you develop skill. It's not about the activity tracking and try and do more and more activity. It's about more effective. I love it. The only way to get to where you want to go is to change things up and to continue to improve and involve and Salmon Russell and the people to follow. So everyone definitely check them out on the respective linkedin's and SAM's newsletter and everywhere you can learn about SAM sales and uh show pad as well. Thanks so much for the time. This is great. Thanks Tom. Thanks Russell. Thank you. Thanks for checking out that podcast. Quick reminder to give me a follow or connect on linkedin. I'm tom Alaimo, I work over at gong and co host this podcast for you. Every monday. One more shout out to our sponsor, drift the new way businesses by from businesses. You can learn more and get...

...the conversation started at drift dot com until next week. Get after it. We'll see you next monday. Say something. Mhm.

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