The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 28: Working Smarter to Land Your First VP of Sales Role w/ Matt Kilmartin

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Ep 28: Working Smarter to Land Your First VP of Sales Role w/ Matt Kilmartin

I think. Hi and welcome to the revenue Collective podcast. This is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host. Today's podcast is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern Sale Zorg. But don't just take our word for it. The VP of sales a tableau says they run their entire business from outreach and snowflakes. Enterprise sales director, She says outreach is the pillar behind how they've been able to scale. Want to see what the number one sales engagement platform can do for your business? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io Toe. Learn more. You'll get an inside view toe. How outreach brings efficiency, visibility and versatility to modern sales teams. Again, that's W W w dot outreach dot io. Enjoy this episode with Matt Kill Martin. Hello and welcome to the Revenue Collective podcast. My name is Casey like Gordon and I'm your host today. I have the opportunity to sit down with Matt Kill Martin, who was the VP of sales. It's certified. Matt is going to talk to us about his story of landing. His first V p of sales role will talk about how personalization is key when you're looking for that next gig. How? Don't walk the walk, not just talk the talk. And when it comes down to the final stages, what is negotiation look like? I became fascinated with Matt Story as he had reached out to the revenue collective community and shared that it played such a role in him, landing his next gig. It was this idea of working smarter, not harder. And I think that any of us that are active participants in this revenue collective community, or really any community for other sales and marketing leaders that are listening, being able to think about what are the resource is available is you chart. Your career is everything. And so today, when I sit down with Matt, we're going to talk about his personal journey, some tips and tricks he's learned along the way. And what has it been like starting a new gig amidst a pandemic, while also being a father to a two year old and expecting father to a daughter? You've got a lot going on, Matt. Welcome to the show. Just a little bit, Casey. Thanks for having me excited yet today for sure, for sure. So talk to me about really? How this job transition came to be. I understand that you were with your last company through an eventual acquisition. And then that left you at a point where you said Okay, what's next? So situate myself in in our audience there. Yeah, it was It was an interesting transition, to say the least. I think it was all the decision was also made for me, if you will. So I was actually a part of ambassadors in early stage tech company out of the metro Detroit area. And we, you know, we're charting some pretty impressive growth year every year and actually were acquired back in 2018 and again, super exciting, fascinating experience to be a part of having a successful exit like that and then almost getting a mini MBA in the two years post, then on what it looks like to try and integrate in early stage, fast growing company with the behemoth telecommunications company that dominates their space. So we actually got to a position where the parent company has kind of made the decision thio Sunset, the ambassador platform and as it wasn't a part of the plans moving forward so kind of, you know, for the first time in five years, kind of gave me the option Thio to kind of reflect a little bit, See where I wanted to go in my career and again these days, a five year running a startup is eyes pretty solid. It was just time for that next challenge, so I kind of jumped into it with both feet. So when you I know you and I were catching up before we before I pressed go here on the show and you were saying that the past five years that your company, you were incredibly fulfilled. This wasn't, you know, I talked to a lot of people that say that exit came or this job transition came and I was ready for it, like, let me out. But it sounds like you were in a really good...

...place. And so I'm sure that had some mixed emotions as well. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, anyone that's worked in early stage companies before, like knows that feeling that it just it becomes your life. It's your baby, and it's it's very easy to kind of buy into the mission and feel that sense of commitment. That's why we do what we do, Um, kind of going through. You know, the unwinding of that was definitely challenging when it wasn't, you know, it didn't feel like our baby anymore. But at the same time, like I've always been someone that has prioritized experiences and being able, Thio kind of have the mentality of what can I get out of an experience like this? Even if there is challenges and frustrations with trying to integrate to businesses like that, how can I be ineffective operator, but also learn something along the way that I know that is going to come back and compound later on in the career somewhere. So I always look for opportunities. Then you know, post acquisition toe. Align closely with some of the executive team from the parent company and just soak up knowledge like a sponge and see how I can have an impact on the business and be helpful. More than anything. That's a really mature perspective to say that even when I'm faced with the chaos of early stage companies acquisition that I'm going to pause and say, What can I learn from this moment? How does it make me better at the next job, and I think that that's one thing that that several people I know myself included struggle with at times is you know, perspective in hindsight is always great to come at the end. But to be able to do that in the moment, I I think it's a muscle that you really have toe home. Yeah, I mean, look, in a situation like this, you can you can be bitter or you could be better and you could be bitter or you could be better. I'm gonna feel that you can You have all rights to it. But look, I think it's easy to get, um, you know, kind of frustrated with the situation. But again, like at the end of the day, like we're all a group of people that are just trying thio to move forward on, I think that you can let your emotions overcome you and hold onto the past. But what I really learned through that experience is that it's naive to think that you're you know, your little precious startup isn't going to change after an acquisition, like you just have to get okay with that and the quicker you can, the easier it is to kind of move forward and start to think about how you can progress the business versus constantly looking back and wishing things were the way they were in the past completely. I mean, that that's business. That's life too, right? Like that's such a big lesson. Curious of. Okay, so talk to me about the timeline of when you've landed your new gig versus when you left your old one and what that transition period looks like. Yep. So I was obviously, like, involved in some of the planning from a communications standpoint on the shutdown, both thio internal affected employees and external also to clients. So I had a bit of a heads up there which obviously, like, help start toe, wrap my head around like what the next play looks like on and start to put some some pieces in play like that. It's actually funny, like the way the timing ended up because I knew that I wanted to go and start somewhere else and and being an early stage company again and and kind of, you know, dual this again and have that experience of building something and As it turned out, the I was going through this interview process and, funnily enough, it actually aligned where my technically my last day at Ambassador Trotter align with the day that I signed the offer letter from my new company. So one of those things where yeah, just by pure luck, just align perfectly. And I was very adamant after a five year kind of burning, the wicked both ends experience that I wanted to take a good two or three weeks off, and I kind of felt that obligation Thio, my wife and son who are both fantastic support systems for myself, and I need to give them time in between to kind of decompress and recharge the batteries and slow down a little bit and enjoy...

...life and then, you know, before you kind of gearing up to do it all over again. Yeah, I think that's such a such an important piece to call out there of that break between roles, and I know it's tempting. Anytime you know, you have have a company saying Hey, we want you to come get on board to really push back and say, No, I need this. I found in some negotiations that I've I've been a part of and have talked people through lately is that you're going to get the better version of me. If I take this time off, like if I come right in, I'm going to be depleted. So being able to allow me the time to really reset, it's going to get you a better product. Yeah, and And don't get me wrong like I'm I'm a glutton for punishment. So I was welcoming emails from the CEO and CIO of certified and kind of helping weigh in on some of the things that they're working on from a strategic standpoint, and it's kinda it's funny. I felt that constant tugging of like, uh, should I really be doing this? But again, I can't help myself because I just enjoy getting involved in something so early stage, and it fulfills me to do that. But I will say that I was very cones and also of making sure I take that time with the family and again, like you don't get a chance to get some of this time back with with a two year old just seeing some of the development so I got a lot of fulfillment out of that Also. Awesome. Awesome. So talk to me about so you haven't looked for a gay in five years, and I I mean, that in itself can be daunting to say, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go find my next job. Where did you start? I mean, the theme of this podcast today is working smarter, not harder. Tow land, your next gig. And so I want to talk through what were some of the the tools and resource is you used and lessons learned along the way. Yeah, it is. It is weird looking for a new job again when you haven't done it in five years. And especially like the pace that tech and SAS moves that, like everything is constantly evolving and changing. So I think the first thing I did was get the old resume back out that I had used, you know, prior to opening into applying an ambassador, and I looked at it and I actually reached out to my former VPs sales. That ambassador hired me and I said, Why the hell did you hired me? Based on this resume, it's terrible, like so and because like that's the cool thing about hiring managers because you see a lot of resumes coming through on what good looks like type of thing. But it's actually very difficult to write your own. It's much easier to critique of. There's a lot of the time, So that was kind of the first step there to dust that off. And then I mean, there was some passive looking around, no doubt. But I found it actually found this really good resource from a thought. They didn't space for the ambivalence. I'm sure many people are familiar with her. She's got this really good sales hacker article about He's like a list of a dozen or so questions to actually ask yourself and answer before you go into a job hunt. And I found that a really good concept because I didn't want to get into this knowing that I was trying Thio work on shutting down business at the same time. And you I didn't have a ton of time in mindshare. I didn't want to be just kind of spraying and praying and, you know, applying Thio 20 or 30 different companies per week. I wanted to focus on like a select few that I felt really good about and issuing them and am approached a job hunting. It's like I'm not going to go and just do anything. I'm gonna curate the list that I really want, and then I'll hit it from multiple angles. Yeah, exactly. And that's just the way I preferred toe work. Also, like I think this comes back Thio. You know some of the theme of personalization also, and even in prospecting like, I've never been a huge fan of just spraying and praying and using, you know, some of those tools that that burned through lists, but I wanted Teoh. You know, I was deliberate. I reached out to the network obviously to see if I could secure any kind of referral interest or anything like that. But in answering some of these questions, I started to realize, hey, like it actually narrowed down the list of companies I was looking at because I knew I wanted to...

...go into something early stage again, either. Syriza groceries be, you know, somewhere around that kind of a million. Two million are where they're just starting to get some initial product market fit And then, like I knew that I wanted to have that experience of going from like in the 2 to 10 range again. But I wanted to find somewhere where I could go when I felt good about going past that. Also kind of getting past that magical 10 million in our our number and getting something a little bit more at scale and kind of then chasing that experience also there. But being a part of it, stop, yes, talk to me about some of the questions that air in that and I want to share to the group the sales hacker article, because I think that anybody that's looking at what's next like this is some good, introspective work. Yeah, and I'd be happy to share that also. But again, it kind of asked introspective questions around like, you know, think of a time in your career when you are most happiest. What made you what made you happy? What gave you fulfillment, like what experiences you know? Do you have today that you could package into the next role since there's some different questions like that that again, I kind of made me think more about what do I really want to be doing? Like what gives me enjoyment on a daily basis on Not just like chasing, you know, chasing logos type of thing or applying to anyone that will hire me. Yeah. You and I were talking Thio earlier around how you evolve in your career of what you're searching for. And I think this really you know, we'll talk about the role you have now a VP of sales leading starting to lead a team I know in your past role you were leading a team is well but early on. And and sometimes this is true for people throughout their entire career. But I found early on I was very much chasing a certain kind of company, one that, you know, maybe it looked good on paper was flashy to your point, the logos. And as my career progressed, I realized that it was so much more about the team and impact that I had on a day to day basis. Similar to those questions You're mentioning that that Amy has in her article around When did you feel your full power? When did you feel happy? And rarely is it When I got hired by Ex Job. It's so much more around when my team did X or, you know, accomplished this or close this deal. And I think that's an evolution. And I think makes the job hunt a bit richer because you're interviewing them the same way they're interviewing you. Do they help you reach the goals that you have? And that that's just shift in mindset and I find makes you much more desirable quote unquote product as a higher Yeah, 100%. And, um, you know, look at I think we're all guilty every now and then of looking. You know, we all probably wish that were on something like the Gong rocket ship a few years ago before they blowing up right. And companies like that And you know, there's obviously certain enemy there and things like that. But, I mean, you've got to be soup. In early stage companies, you've gotta have a lot of like you're going your way, tow land on the right rocket ship type of thing. And I think when when you reframe your thinking or the goalposts around like where you really want to go next, kind of it kind of helps you rethink You know who the right employer is for you type of thing. Like you start to place less pressure on yourself to find the next unicorn, and you start to seek out, you know, sometimes more diamonds in the rough and start to think about Hey, who are the some of the existing team? You know how transparent out there with their business and willing, you know, Thio kind of, you know, empower me to come in and put my own spin on things. But you know, who was some of the existing team there that I can come in and help out? Because I've seen that in my previous role. Like that Ah ha moment that you get when you like, empower rep with coaching and see them Just see something click that you've been working on with them for a while. Or see them reach a pit Lexi and reach a personal goal of buying a house or paying off credit card debt or something like that. Right like that to me, is where true fulfillment comes with sales leadership, and I think when you start to look at those...

...opportunities rather than just like the external buzz of, you know, working for a unicorn. It it becomes just to think a little bit more easier to find your next role. E I love that. So we talked about personalization being key, really? Doing the work up front to say, What is it? What is it that you want in a job? What are the kinds of companies curating a list on that and then, you know, telling that authentic story to whoever these hiring managers are talk to me about You had to share with me a concept of walk the walk. And I wanna talk about that and and how that played a role in your job hunt? Yeah. And this is where, like, I'm a phone. Believe that you're going through this process like you're not applying for jobs. You're auditioning for the role. Eso, especially when you are, you know, in a position like myself are rising. Executive, you've got you know, you've got success in an icy role. You've started the transition through in the kind of some team leadership play a coach type roles and being given the reins almost like an inherited team type of thing, like you're looking for that next challenge of looking to go on and on the team and build it out from scratch. But you don't necessarily have those runs on the board already from a previous gig where you can point to past experience and say, Hey, here's you know, here's what I've done before Here's what I'm going to come in and do again type of things. So you kind of you can't necessarily rely on past results to chart your future on the next roll you have, Teoh, you have to be ableto walk the walk Eso for me that was showing that I can prospect in reaching out to the hiring manager. Like I I found this role on LinkedIn. They had about 200 plus applicants, and I knew that to stand out from that crowd like hitting the easy apply but just isn't going to cut it s o. I need to be able to show that I know how to prospect in that process. So I looked through his process through his LinkedIn profile. I saw that I had the ace up the sleeve of being Australian. I noticed that he actually had studied in Australia for a year, which is obviously a really good hook. And I knew something that no one else could really reach out to him about. And then also going through a recent home purchase two and kind of, you know, framing that up, how it can help me in the role, I think stood out crowd. So to me, that was at least you know, some of the initial areas of walking the walk. But then, beyond that, like it goes into how you put time into your 30 60 90 day plan, how you show up for these interviews with hiring managers, I literally spent probably 15 or 20 hours throughout the entire interview process, listening to some of the sales reps. Coles and providing coaching on it and even evaluating some of the candidates they were looking at hiring from the head of marketing standpoint, knowing that I would align closer with this person when we start working together. So all those things help me put my best foot forward and kind of you know, was able to show this potential employer that I've got the chops to actually come in and be successful here, and I'm not just saying that I could do it. I think that is something that I'm always shocked by. I in my former life was a sales later hiring. And sometimes it's the basics that my sales hires or prospective hires would miss. And I would think like exactly like you said, This is the ultimate sale. This is like you selling yourself. So whether it's follow up, email being on time, being thoughtful to your point and creative and outreach, all of these things. If you aren't willing to do this on the get like to get the gig, how do I have confidence that it's going to translate when you're in the role? And so I couldn't agree more? And I think, you know, putting it through the lens of Listen, I'm prospecting you as the hiring manager. I'm gonna, you know, create these customized messages. I'm gonna make myself highly relevant. These air all sales 101 when you would be coaching your reps. Hmm? Yeah, and and...

...again like like the CEO wasn't bashful throughout the interview process and saying, Hey, this is one of the most important hires that we're going to make in the company's history and that zit so true for first VPs sales higher. So again, like some of this, was just about me making them feel common comfort in my abilities to come in and execute and be the right fit for their team, I'm kind of making it easier for them to say yes to May Yeah, talk to me about the pressure. Or maybe you thrive on the pressure. I don't know, but e mean to hear from the CEO. This is going to be one of the single most important hires of our company. Trajectory. That's that's weighty. And so talk to me about how that felt. Yeah, I'm most people that know me will tell you that I'm notoriously sarcastic, Um, and don't take myself too seriously. So my immediate response was all right. Sounds good. No pressure. We'll be good here type of thing. But again, like this is, I think sometimes where you know the power of the revenue collective community comes in. Also, when you're kind of surrounding yourself with peers that have been through this transition to like, it is definitely nerve racking to take that next step in your career where it's a little bit the unknown and you haven't done this before, but again, the site Try some of this back to the confidence coming back from the community behind me. Knowing that I have all of a sudden stepped into this community appears that would be their thio to kind of help out and help me kind of see ahead and around corners that I don't know exist yet type of things. So there's a sense of calm and confidence that I go into this role with knowing that I might not have done all of this stuff before, but I'm sure as hell gonna be able to figure it out with the help of those around here. I echo that sentiment so much I know in my last role is I was expanding the team and, you know, the company itself was evolving. I found so much comfort and being ableto, you know, on a very personal level, reach out toe to the community and have people respond. And, you know, it may have not been identical to my experience, but it was very tangible things I could learn from hold onto. And I found you know, that there was a sense of it feels good to give back, right? And I think that the community at large I have seen that is that they're they're eager to. So I love that. That was, ah, confidence boost for you. So talk to me about when it comes to negotiation. Like that's, you know, like, this all sounds great. No big pressure. This is, like, the biggest role the company is gonna hire Your coming in and now scoping out with your next role is And I'm sure there's lessons learned from your past life of maybe things you wish you were in the contract or weren't in the contract. Talk to me about how you approach negotiations. Yeah, And again, like, to me, this is another opportunity to show you know how what your scale, your sales skills local like And how you gonna approach the role? Because coming in as a VP of sales like you automatically assume the position of head chief negotiator for the company s o to me, there's, you know, there's an expectation from the hiring manager that you are. You know, there is going to be some kind of negotiation, but to me It was important to be tough but fair throughout this and be very clear and direct with with how I wanted to negotiate this offer, because that's the way that I would wanna negotiate with prospects that we're trying to win business from when I come into the role. So I found it. Easiest, just Thio. And this is where some of the resource is, like the bill of rights stock and some of the due diligence checklists. And now the re sources of revenue collective come in handy because it kind of it coaches you on how to go about it the right way and doing something that you've you've done. Maybe, you know, look for the last time, five years ago, type of thing. So for me, it was important to get everything out on paper and in writing for the things that were important for, you know, for me personally and kind of have a couple of kiosks there and then because I I hate negotiations with...

...prospects where, like you say yes to something and all of a sudden, like you give an inch and they take a mile. It's kind of there's always another half type of thing, and I just I don't think that is. You know, I don't like that approach negotiation. I'd rather be very clear and direct and say, Hey, here's what's important to me And I wanted to frame of those asked with like, This is important to me because And I think this is beneficial to the company also because and then kind of get them out there and and kind of sit nervously and wait for the for the CEO to get back to you with those asks. Well, I like that You what I'm hearing here, especially in a sales leader role. This may not be true for every sales higher, right? Like more junior level employees like that, this might look different, but you're coming in to your point. You our chief negotiator, and so I think there's something really powerful on what I'm hearing of. I want to define what an ideal package looks like for me, and I'm sure that you did some of that work even before you had the offer letter from them of saying I want whether it's you know, benefits, whether it's salary, whether it's bonus, whatever that is being able to put that on paper, see how there's compares, but then come forth and say, Here's what I want And I think this is That's a really powerful lesson. I think that a lot of times we look at, what do we want in response to an offer? I think that there's a difference in saying What do I want agnostic of this offer and then I can come back. And I think that the the point you made there of also time benefit into what is the company? Get out of this. Like, Why is this a smart move? That, to me is also like great negotiation that you would do for your prospect. Right of I'm gonna ask for this or you're gonna pay for this, whatever it is. But here's the benefit you get. And so how was it received from the company when you came back with, you know, your ideal asks, Yeah. And to your point, like you want this to be a win win. Think like I've seen many people make the mistakes before making negotiations, uh, you know, kind of like aggressive, if you will law ending up in. You're kind of combative type language. And it's not productive whatsoever. Like you've both got that Teoh this fire along the path and you want to just get it across the finish line. So but it's important. Thio kind of speak up, you know, for what's important and, you know, well founded asks based upon, you know, market research. Or, you know, benchmark studies, you know, definitely helped. Kind of having the confidence to make these asks. But overall like it, it's funny, right? Because when I remember, like making these ass and I'm thinking all of a sudden I'm waiting for the CEO to respond to it and, like, actually sent it on a Saturday and the hours are kind of ticking by and I'm like, I'm going to get a response like what's going on? And, you know, usually I'd coach my reps in this situation just to say, Hey, like, be calm and confident, like you've got the prospects of this point. You know you've done your work like it just it's up to them now to come and kind of meat you that the other 10% of the way and seal the deal and have to kind of take some of my own advice there a little bit and just chill and know that I put in the work to put myself in a position where we were ready to see all the steel and again, overall, it was it was very well received. I think the CEO appreciated the way that I went about it and again, literally a matter of a day or two later were ableto solidify that thoughts on your you know, from your experience. Or maybe, you know, had they come back differently. I'm thinking about a scenario where an employee may lay something out and an employer may come back and say, This just isn't feasible. Any thoughts there on what you would have done? If I mean, would it have been a deal breaker to you to say, if we really can't meet these things, this is just not the right role. Were there there, you know, your must haves versus Nice to have some curious what you scenario plan in your mind. Yeah, I mean, the way I sent it over in an email, I sent it over and...

...said, Hey, like, here's here's the only asked I'll ever have here's what's important to me and ranked in order of priority. So I wanted to kind of give them an understanding of where my head was at and like now, whether it was, I don't think any of them would necessarily deal. Break is. But that was strong preferences. And that was like, I think, well received also and just kind of giving them, like some band with an understanding of, like where they could maybe push back on a little bit, knowing that they had a very serious candidate that was ready to suspend interviewing at other companies also. So I'm someone that doesn't tend to overthink these things too much and trying scenario, played too much and live on what else? Because you just never know until you get that ask you out there and again, I believe you've got to be bold enough to ask for what you believe your worth and just trust that you know you can work through anything If both parties are committed to making it work. Yeah, I I think that bold enough to ask for for what you're worth and what's important to you. I think that doing the research ahead of time. I mean, that's one thing I think, for anybody listening that yes, your general market research. But revenue collective is a pretty powerful resource because you get to hear from real people that these air reasonable asks these air things that others expect in these roles and being able to do that, I think about, you know, how do we make sure that it's an expectation that any of our sales hires any of our sales leader specifically are going in with a perspective of what they want? Like, I think that helps all of us in doing that. So I would invite any of our listeners as you're looking at new roles. Thio, you know, agnostic of what the offer says Think about the things that are really important to you and see if those air things that that you can boldly ask for the worst that someone could say is No. And you can then make the decision. If it's if it's the right place for you. Yeah, exactly like you. What is it? I think MJ might have said one day that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take right, so I think you've gotta have that confidence to ask. And it's definitely easier to feel more confident when it's backed by research. Yeah, yeah, I I love that. So how how many days, weeks, months, Are you into your new gig so weak to day three? Uh, overall. All right, How you doing? It's like drinking like a from a fire hose. But again, like that's That's what I signed up for. And that's what I love. Like a trust that the team there is showing me already to kind of bring me into awesome sales conversations and kind of given free rein. Thio redefine what the sales process looks like. Um, and kind of put the stamp on that again. It's been very rewarding and validating that I made the right decision. Well, my congrats on your new gig. Two weeks and three days in I'm I'm grateful that you and I got to spend the time together today talking about your journey from transitioning from a role that you didn't really necessarily plan to leave. But how you turn that into an opportunity toe boldly ask for what you wanted. Thio take a new leadership role and to find your next early stage company to make a big impact. It's It's exciting to see, and I hope that we get to have you on in a couple months and here, hear about the progress you've made? Yeah, 100%. This is being fun and again, like you said something earlier on the podcast about giving back to the community, and I think that's that's really important. And that's why I jumped at the opportunity today to kind of speak Thio. What helped me throughout that the job hunt process and hopefully can help someone else or other people throughout. There's I've gotten Cem Cem pretty key takeaways from today. I told you I'm better, not better. Or be better, not bitter. I'm taking that like that's gonna become a household phrase around here. But there's a ton of other ones, too, so I appreciate it. And with that, we're signing off from our revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Like Gordon, this is Matt. Tell Martin...

...and we will see you next time. All right, Crew, That's a wrap. That was a really wonderful conversation with Matt Kill Martin. And before you hit end right now, make sure you stay tuned because we have a bonus clip. Matt and I were jamming and decided to keep hitting record, so make sure you tune into that. The revenue collective podcast is powered by outreach. The sales engagement platform for the modern sale. Zorg Want to see the number one sales engagement platform could do for you? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io toe Learn more. Alright crew. Matt and I were jamming after this recording and we got into some specifics and I had to ask him if we could go back live because there's some key pieces as he, you know, went across, went about developing his deal that I think are pretty key. And one of the things I brought up to Matt was, you know, as a woman in business, and I spend a lot of time thinking about diverse talent, you know, he said he was, he boldly asked. He had the confidence Thio and I like to think about, you know, how can we tell more stories so that women minority talent, people that maybe traditionally aren't as boldly or confident or comfortable asking boldly, How can we help them also come to the table with this much resource. And Matt, you were sharing that there were, You know, I thought there was pretty interesting piece that you said you stopped rank your asks. And so there was some vulnerability there that you came in to say, Listen, I may not get all of these, but I'm I'm willing to show my hand of what's important to me. And you said it's important for an employee to not think that an employer is trying to screw them at every part of the deal. And I think that is, that is, sometimes you know how it can feel or some of the our own biases that come into this. And I love to hear just some of your experiences of how you how you gave benefit of the doubt. I know you mentioned, you know, educating your now employer on some of the market value, even. Yeah, and you want to avoid that adversarial situation, right? Like I think that's what I what I bring it back to because you've got this far like, you both want to make the deal work, and you want to avoid, you know, kind of leaving a bad taste in anyone's mouth at the final stages. Like you wanna walk away with a true win win. So I think that's where it's important. Thio again, like let them know and be transparent about like, what's important to you. In my case, that was stack ranking. Some of the asks that being okay with not getting everything and not kind of like digging in their heels and saying these air complete dealbreakers But, you know, maybe communicating that they're strong preferences, but, you know, open toe a bit of back and forth on them. Yeah, And so when you came to do your deal, you know, I think that there's a lot of stereotypes, especially for companies that maybe haven't traditionally been in the SAS business or technology space. And I think that is the case with the company you're with. Is that a lot of this? That there they've been more industry focused. So the fact this tech or SAS peace and bringing in talent on that side, it was new to them. And so, you know, coming out as a sales leader oftentimes were incentivized by, you know, commissions or our sales, but that can also early stage incentivize the wrong behavior. So talk to me about maybe what? The original. You have to get into specifics, obviously. But maybe the structure of what they had proposed versus where you all landed and shares you're able to I recognize that, you know, wanna be wanna be sensitive to the company right now. Yeah, and obviously like in any early stage company. And, you know, coming at a VP of sales position like equity is an important consideration in the overall compensation package. And again, like I think, this is where it's super beneficial having some of this research...

...and having access to it to know what the market rate is and what to ask for, Um, type of saying I'm, you know, sometimes giving your employees the benefit of the doubt. If their initial offer isn't there, and you will, it will tell you a lot when you make some of these asks around how your potential employer actually responds to them, and it will tell you how they typically like to negotiate and how they value your talent. So in my case, I couldn't have asked for a better process going through it all and again, with obviously equity being a big piece of that. I wanted to make sure that the incentives were aligned for me to come in and feel like an owner and not just encourage the sales team to take on your shitty deals that turnout quickly in favor of, you know, kind of getting paid quickly on that commission. But like truly thinking about how do we build this into a sustainable business over time that has a very large term on, you know, will obviously help us a long time from a revenue multiple standpoint or talking about any kind of like exit a liquidity event later on. Mm. And when you develop the language of how you wanted to ask, did you just come up with it on your own? Where you did you turn to like mentors? Or, you know, other people to say, How can I ask for this in a way that feels equitable, like not Thio equitable in the sense that I'm doing this because I want the I won't have aligned incentives versus a land grab for just more money, and I think that sometimes is a really fine line Yeah, exactly. Because you don't want to. Just It has to be given take. You want to come away with a win win? You don't want to just come off of someone that just asks and takes everything type of things. So it's a delicate conversation toe have. And I want to actually turn back to the founder and CEO Ambassador for who is to retain a really good relationship with. And I wanted Thio pick his brain on, you know, being in that CEO seat. And how would you know? How would he appreciate a potential VP of sales? Like ask, you know, making some of these asks And how would he appreciate this being framed up type of thing and again, like that was super beneficial and just leaning on some of the you know, folks within my network thio get their perspective on things, and then even still, I kind of wrote this email up and I had it sitting there. I felt good about it, but I slept on it and wait until the next day to send it. I actually made a couple of weeks the next day because I didn't want to act out of emotion. I wanted Thio, you know, kind of think with logic and reason through this and make sure that I had a chance to sleep on it and feel good about it before hitting that send button. Yeah, I think that that taking the care to do that and it could be it could be tempting to want to just hit, send and have this rapid fire negotiations. But recognizing that there's ah, there's power and value and slowing down a little bit. Yeah. I mean, a lot of folks that have worked with me before will know that I'm a big fan of the phrase. Sometimes you've got to slow down to speed up. And a lot of that time, the meaning behind that is just thinking a little bit more strategically and clearly through what you're doing on making sure you're communicating the right way. And the message is going to be received the right way versus just trying Thio, Go, go! Go and get to the finish line as quick as possible. It's okay to slow down every now and then when things were important. More of the walking, the walk there, showing you're showing the way you work. I like it. A little bit of walking. All right, now we're signing off for Riel. This was helpful. I wanted to get some of those tangible pieces just because, as we were as we were ripping after we got off the line, I thought that our audience might like to hear him. So, Matt, thank you. You've been a gracious host twice. Now, look at that to podcast in one day. This was Matt's first time. He did great, guys. All right, this is Casey. Like Gordon, I'm signing off of the revenue collected podcast.

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