The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

Ep 28: Working Smarter to Land Your First VP of Sales Role w/ Matt Kilmartin

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Ep 28: Working Smarter to Land Your First VP of Sales Role w/ Matt Kilmartin

I think. Hi and welcome to the revenueCollective podcast. This is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host. Today'spodcast is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for themodern Sale Zorg. But don't just take our word for it. The VP of sales atableau says they run their entire business from outreach and snowflakes.Enterprise sales director, She says outreach is the pillar behind howthey've been able to scale. Want to see what the number one sales engagementplatform can do for your business? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io Toe.Learn more. You'll get an inside view toe. How outreach brings efficiency,visibility and versatility to modern sales teams. Again, that's W W w dotoutreach dot io. Enjoy this episode with Matt Kill Martin. Hello andwelcome to the Revenue Collective podcast. My name is Casey like Gordonand I'm your host today. I have the opportunity to sit down with Matt KillMartin, who was the VP of sales. It's certified. Matt is going to talk to usabout his story of landing. His first V p of sales role will talk about howpersonalization is key when you're looking for that next gig. How? Don'twalk the walk, not just talk the talk. And when it comes down to the finalstages, what is negotiation look like? I became fascinated with Matt Story ashe had reached out to the revenue collective community and shared that itplayed such a role in him, landing his next gig. It was this idea of workingsmarter, not harder. And I think that any of us that are active participantsin this revenue collective community, or really any community for other salesand marketing leaders that are listening, being able to think aboutwhat are the resource is available is you chart. Your career is everything.And so today, when I sit down with Matt, we're going to talk about his personaljourney, some tips and tricks he's learned along the way. And what has itbeen like starting a new gig amidst a pandemic, while also being a father toa two year old and expecting father to a daughter? You've got a lot going on,Matt. Welcome to the show. Just a little bit, Casey. Thanks for having meexcited yet today for sure, for sure. So talk to me about really? How thisjob transition came to be. I understand that you were with your last companythrough an eventual acquisition. And then that left you at a point where yousaid Okay, what's next? So situate myself in in our audience there. Yeah,it was It was an interesting transition, to say the least. I think it was allthe decision was also made for me, if you will. So I was actually a part ofambassadors in early stage tech company out of the metro Detroit area. And we,you know, we're charting some pretty impressive growth year every year andactually were acquired back in 2018 and again, super exciting, fascinatingexperience to be a part of having a successful exit like that and thenalmost getting a mini MBA in the two years post, then on what it looks liketo try and integrate in early stage, fast growing company with the behemothtelecommunications company that dominates their space. So we actuallygot to a position where the parent company has kind of made the decisionthio Sunset, the ambassador platform and as it wasn't a part of the plansmoving forward so kind of, you know, for the first time in five years, kindof gave me the option Thio to kind of reflect a little bit, See where Iwanted to go in my career and again these days, a five year running astartup is eyes pretty solid. It was just time for that next challenge, so Ikind of jumped into it with both feet. So when you I know you and I werecatching up before we before I pressed go here on the show and you were sayingthat the past five years that your company, you were incredibly fulfilled.This wasn't, you know, I talked to a lot of people that say that exit cameor this job transition came and I was ready for it, like, let me out. But itsounds like you were in a really good...

...place. And so I'm sure that had somemixed emotions as well. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, anyone that'sworked in early stage companies before, like knows that feeling that it just itbecomes your life. It's your baby, and it's it's very easy to kind of buy intothe mission and feel that sense of commitment. That's why we do what we do,Um, kind of going through. You know, the unwinding of that was definitelychallenging when it wasn't, you know, it didn't feel like our baby anymore.But at the same time, like I've always been someone that has prioritizedexperiences and being able, Thio kind of have the mentality of what can I getout of an experience like this? Even if there is challenges and frustrationswith trying to integrate to businesses like that, how can I be ineffectiveoperator, but also learn something along the way that I know that is goingto come back and compound later on in the career somewhere. So I always lookfor opportunities. Then you know, post acquisition toe. Align closely withsome of the executive team from the parent company and just soak upknowledge like a sponge and see how I can have an impact on the business andbe helpful. More than anything. That's a really mature perspective to say thateven when I'm faced with the chaos of early stage companies acquisition thatI'm going to pause and say, What can I learn from this moment? How does itmake me better at the next job, and I think that that's one thing that thatseveral people I know myself included struggle with at times is you know,perspective in hindsight is always great to come at the end. But to beable to do that in the moment, I I think it's a muscle that you reallyhave toe home. Yeah, I mean, look, in a situation like this, you can you can bebitter or you could be better and you could be bitter or you could be better.I'm gonna feel that you can You have all rights to it. But look, I thinkit's easy to get, um, you know, kind of frustrated with the situation. Butagain, like at the end of the day, like we're all a group of people that arejust trying thio to move forward on, I think that you can let your emotionsovercome you and hold onto the past. But what I really learned through thatexperience is that it's naive to think that you're you know, your littleprecious startup isn't going to change after an acquisition, like you justhave to get okay with that and the quicker you can, the easier it is tokind of move forward and start to think about how you can progress the businessversus constantly looking back and wishing things were the way they werein the past completely. I mean, that that'sbusiness. That's life too, right? Like that's such a big lesson. Curious of.Okay, so talk to me about the timeline of when you've landed your new gigversus when you left your old one and what that transition period looks like.Yep. So I was obviously, like, involved in some of the planning from acommunications standpoint on the shutdown, both thio internal affectedemployees and external also to clients. So I had a bit of a heads up therewhich obviously, like, help start toe, wrap my head around like what the nextplay looks like on and start to put some some pieces in play like that.It's actually funny, like the way the timing ended up because I knew that Iwanted to go and start somewhere else and and being an early stage companyagain and and kind of, you know, dual this again and have that experience ofbuilding something and As it turned out, the I was going through this interviewprocess and, funnily enough, it actually aligned where my technicallymy last day at Ambassador Trotter align with the day that I signed the offerletter from my new company. So one of those things where yeah, just by pureluck, just align perfectly. And I was very adamant after a five year kind ofburning, the wicked both ends experience that I wanted to take a goodtwo or three weeks off, and I kind of felt that obligation Thio, my wife andson who are both fantastic support systems for myself, and I need to givethem time in between to kind of decompress and recharge the batteriesand slow down a little bit and enjoy...

...life and then, you know, before youkind of gearing up to do it all over again. Yeah, I think that's such a suchan important piece to call out there of that break between roles, and I knowit's tempting. Anytime you know, you have have a company saying Hey, we wantyou to come get on board to really push back and say, No, I need this. I foundin some negotiations that I've I've been a part of and have talked peoplethrough lately is that you're going to get the better version of me. If I takethis time off, like if I come right in, I'm going to be depleted. So being ableto allow me the time to really reset, it's going to get you a better product.Yeah, and And don't get me wrong like I'm I'm a glutton for punishment. So Iwas welcoming emails from the CEO and CIO of certified and kind of helpingweigh in on some of the things that they're working on from a strategicstandpoint, and it's kinda it's funny. I felt that constant tugging of like,uh, should I really be doing this? But again, I can't help myself because Ijust enjoy getting involved in something so early stage, and itfulfills me to do that. But I will say that I was very cones and also ofmaking sure I take that time with the family and again, like you don't get achance to get some of this time back with with a two year old just seeingsome of the development so I got a lot of fulfillment out of that Also.Awesome. Awesome. So talk to me about so you haven't looked for a gay in fiveyears, and I I mean, that in itself can be daunting to say, Okay, I'm gonna I'mgonna go find my next job. Where did you start? I mean, the theme of thispodcast today is working smarter, not harder. Tow land, your next gig. And soI want to talk through what were some of the the tools and resource is youused and lessons learned along the way. Yeah, it is. It is weird looking for anew job again when you haven't done it in five years. And especially like thepace that tech and SAS moves that, like everything is constantly evolving andchanging. So I think the first thing I did was get the old resume back outthat I had used, you know, prior to opening into applying an ambassador,and I looked at it and I actually reached out to my former VPs sales.That ambassador hired me and I said, Why the hell did you hired me? Based onthis resume, it's terrible, like so and because like that's the cool thingabout hiring managers because you see a lot of resumes coming through on whatgood looks like type of thing. But it's actually very difficult to write yourown. It's much easier to critique of. There's a lot of the time, So that waskind of the first step there to dust that off. And then I mean, there wassome passive looking around, no doubt. But I found it actually found thisreally good resource from a thought. They didn't space for the ambivalence.I'm sure many people are familiar with her. She's got this really good saleshacker article about He's like a list of a dozen or so questions to actuallyask yourself and answer before you go into a job hunt. And I found that areally good concept because I didn't want to get into this knowing that Iwas trying Thio work on shutting down business at the same time. And you Ididn't have a ton of time in mindshare. I didn't want to be just kind ofspraying and praying and, you know, applying Thio 20 or 30 differentcompanies per week. I wanted to focus on like a select few that I felt reallygood about and issuing them and am approached a job hunting. It's like I'mnot going to go and just do anything. I'm gonna curate the list that I reallywant, and then I'll hit it from multiple angles. Yeah, exactly. Andthat's just the way I preferred toe work. Also, like I think this comesback Thio. You know some of the theme of personalization also, and even inprospecting like, I've never been a huge fan of just spraying and prayingand using, you know, some of those tools that that burned through lists,but I wanted Teoh. You know, I was deliberate. I reached out to thenetwork obviously to see if I could secure any kind of referral interest oranything like that. But in answering some of these questions, I started torealize, hey, like it actually narrowed down the list of companies I waslooking at because I knew I wanted to...

...go into something early stage again,either. Syriza groceries be, you know, somewhere around that kind of a million.Two million are where they're just starting to get some initial productmarket fit And then, like I knew that I wanted to have that experience of goingfrom like in the 2 to 10 range again. But I wanted to find somewhere where Icould go when I felt good about going past that. Also kind of getting pastthat magical 10 million in our our number and getting something a littlebit more at scale and kind of then chasing that experience also there. Butbeing a part of it, stop, yes, talk to me about some of thequestions that air in that and I want to share to the group the sales hackerarticle, because I think that anybody that's looking at what's next like thisis some good, introspective work. Yeah, and I'd be happy to share that also.But again, it kind of asked introspective questions around like,you know, think of a time in your career when you are most happiest. Whatmade you what made you happy? What gave you fulfillment, like what experiencesyou know? Do you have today that you could package into the next role sincethere's some different questions like that that again, I kind of made methink more about what do I really want to be doing? Like what gives meenjoyment on a daily basis on Not just like chasing, you know, chasing logostype of thing or applying to anyone that will hire me. Yeah. You and I weretalking Thio earlier around how you evolve in your career of what you'researching for. And I think this really you know, we'll talk about the role youhave now a VP of sales leading starting to lead a team I know in your past roleyou were leading a team is well but early on. And and sometimes this istrue for people throughout their entire career. But I found early on I was verymuch chasing a certain kind of company, one that, you know, maybe it lookedgood on paper was flashy to your point, the logos. And as my career progressed,I realized that it was so much more about the team and impact that I had ona day to day basis. Similar to those questions You're mentioning that thatAmy has in her article around When did you feel your full power? When did youfeel happy? And rarely is it When I got hired by Ex Job. It's so much morearound when my team did X or, you know, accomplished this or close this deal.And I think that's an evolution. And I think makes the job hunt a bit richerbecause you're interviewing them the same way they're interviewing you. Dothey help you reach the goals that you have? And that that's just shift inmindset and I find makes you much more desirable quote unquote product as ahigher Yeah, 100%. And, um, you know, look at I think we're all guilty everynow and then of looking. You know, we all probably wish that were onsomething like the Gong rocket ship a few years ago before they blowing upright. And companies like that And you know, there's obviously certain enemythere and things like that. But, I mean, you've got to be soup. In early stagecompanies, you've gotta have a lot of like you're going your way, tow land onthe right rocket ship type of thing. And I think when when you reframe yourthinking or the goalposts around like where you really want to go next, kindof it kind of helps you rethink You know who the right employer is for youtype of thing. Like you start to place less pressure on yourself to find thenext unicorn, and you start to seek out, you know, sometimes more diamonds inthe rough and start to think about Hey, who are the some of the existing team?You know how transparent out there with their business and willing, you know,Thio kind of, you know, empower me to come in and put my own spin on things.But you know, who was some of the existing team there that I can come inand help out? Because I've seen that in my previous role. Like that Ah hamoment that you get when you like, empower rep with coaching and see themJust see something click that you've been working on with them for a while.Or see them reach a pit Lexi and reach a personal goal of buying a house orpaying off credit card debt or something like that. Right like that tome, is where true fulfillment comes with sales leadership, and I think whenyou start to look at those...

...opportunities rather than just like theexternal buzz of, you know, working for a unicorn. It it becomes just to thinka little bit more easier to find your next role. E I love that. So we talkedabout personalization being key, really? Doing the work up front to say, What isit? What is it that you want in a job? What are the kinds of companiescurating a list on that and then, you know, telling that authentic story towhoever these hiring managers are talk to me about You had to share with me aconcept of walk the walk. And I wanna talk about that and and how that playeda role in your job hunt? Yeah. And this is where, like, I'm a phone. Believethat you're going through this process like you're not applying for jobs.You're auditioning for the role. Eso, especially when you are, you know, in aposition like myself are rising. Executive, you've got you know, you'vegot success in an icy role. You've started the transition through in thekind of some team leadership play a coach type roles and being given thereins almost like an inherited team type of thing, like you're looking forthat next challenge of looking to go on and on the team and build it out fromscratch. But you don't necessarily have those runs on the board already from aprevious gig where you can point to past experience and say, Hey, here'syou know, here's what I've done before Here's what I'm going to come in and doagain type of things. So you kind of you can't necessarily rely on pastresults to chart your future on the next roll you have, Teoh, you have tobe ableto walk the walk Eso for me that was showing that I can prospect inreaching out to the hiring manager. Like I I found this role on LinkedIn.They had about 200 plus applicants, and I knew that to stand out from thatcrowd like hitting the easy apply but just isn't going to cut it s o. I needto be able to show that I know how to prospect in that process. So I lookedthrough his process through his LinkedIn profile. I saw that I had theace up the sleeve of being Australian. I noticed that he actually had studiedin Australia for a year, which is obviously a really good hook. And Iknew something that no one else could really reach out to him about. And thenalso going through a recent home purchase two and kind of, you know,framing that up, how it can help me in the role, I think stood out crowd. Soto me, that was at least you know, some of the initial areas of walking thewalk. But then, beyond that, like it goes into how you put time into your 3060 90 day plan, how you show up for these interviews with hiring managers,I literally spent probably 15 or 20 hours throughout the entire interviewprocess, listening to some of the sales reps. Coles and providing coaching onit and even evaluating some of the candidates they were looking at hiringfrom the head of marketing standpoint, knowing that I would align closer withthis person when we start working together. So all those things help meput my best foot forward and kind of you know, was able to show thispotential employer that I've got the chops to actually come in and besuccessful here, and I'm not just saying that I could do it. I think thatis something that I'm always shocked by. I in my former life was a sales laterhiring. And sometimes it's the basics that my sales hires or prospectivehires would miss. And I would think like exactly like you said, This is theultimate sale. This is like you selling yourself. So whether it's follow up,email being on time, being thoughtful to your point and creative and outreach,all of these things. If you aren't willing to do this on the get like toget the gig, how do I have confidence that it's going to translate whenyou're in the role? And so I couldn't agree more? And I think, you know,putting it through the lens of Listen, I'm prospecting you as the hiringmanager. I'm gonna, you know, create these customized messages. I'm gonnamake myself highly relevant. These air all sales 101 when you would becoaching your reps. Hmm? Yeah, and and...

...again like like the CEO wasn't bashfulthroughout the interview process and saying, Hey, this is one of the mostimportant hires that we're going to make in the company's history and thatzit so true for first VPs sales higher. So again, like some of this, was justabout me making them feel common comfort in my abilities to come in andexecute and be the right fit for their team, I'm kind of making it easier forthem to say yes to May Yeah, talk to me about the pressure. Or maybe you thriveon the pressure. I don't know, but e mean to hear from the CEO. This isgoing to be one of the single most important hires of our company.Trajectory. That's that's weighty. And so talk to me about how that felt. Yeah,I'm most people that know me will tell you that I'm notoriously sarcastic, Um,and don't take myself too seriously. So my immediate response was all right.Sounds good. No pressure. We'll be good here type of thing. But again, likethis is, I think sometimes where you know the power of the revenuecollective community comes in. Also, when you're kind of surroundingyourself with peers that have been through this transition to like, it isdefinitely nerve racking to take that next step in your career where it's alittle bit the unknown and you haven't done this before, but again, the siteTry some of this back to the confidence coming back from the community behindme. Knowing that I have all of a sudden stepped into this community appearsthat would be their thio to kind of help out and help me kind of see aheadand around corners that I don't know exist yet type of things. So there's asense of calm and confidence that I go into this role with knowing that Imight not have done all of this stuff before, but I'm sure as hell gonna beable to figure it out with the help of those around here. I echo thatsentiment so much I know in my last role is I was expanding the team and,you know, the company itself was evolving. I found so much comfort andbeing ableto, you know, on a very personal level, reach out toe to thecommunity and have people respond. And, you know, it may have not beenidentical to my experience, but it was very tangible things I could learn fromhold onto. And I found you know, that there was a sense of it feels good togive back, right? And I think that the community at large I have seen that isthat they're they're eager to. So I love that. That was, ah, confidenceboost for you. So talk to me about when it comes to negotiation. Like that's,you know, like, this all sounds great. No big pressure. This is, like, thebiggest role the company is gonna hire Your coming in and now scoping out withyour next role is And I'm sure there's lessons learned from your past life ofmaybe things you wish you were in the contract or weren't in the contract.Talk to me about how you approach negotiations. Yeah, And again, like, tome, this is another opportunity to show you know how what your scale, yoursales skills local like And how you gonna approach the role? Because comingin as a VP of sales like you automatically assume the position ofhead chief negotiator for the company s o to me, there's, you know, there's anexpectation from the hiring manager that you are. You know, there is goingto be some kind of negotiation, but to me It was important to be tough butfair throughout this and be very clear and direct with with how I wanted tonegotiate this offer, because that's the way that I would wanna negotiatewith prospects that we're trying to win business from when I come into the role.So I found it. Easiest, just Thio. And this is where some of the resource is,like the bill of rights stock and some of the due diligence checklists. Andnow the re sources of revenue collective come in handy because itkind of it coaches you on how to go about it the right way and doingsomething that you've you've done. Maybe, you know, look for the last time,five years ago, type of thing. So for me, it was important to get everythingout on paper and in writing for the things that were important for, youknow, for me personally and kind of have a couple of kiosks there and thenbecause I I hate negotiations with...

...prospects where, like you say yes tosomething and all of a sudden, like you give an inch and they take a mile. It'skind of there's always another half type of thing, and I just I don't thinkthat is. You know, I don't like that approach negotiation. I'd rather bevery clear and direct and say, Hey, here's what's important to me And Iwanted to frame of those asked with like, This is important to me becauseAnd I think this is beneficial to the company also because and then kind ofget them out there and and kind of sit nervously and wait for the for the CEOto get back to you with those asks. Well, I like that You what I'm hearinghere, especially in a sales leader role. This may not be true for every saleshigher, right? Like more junior level employees like that, this might lookdifferent, but you're coming in to your point. You our chief negotiator, and soI think there's something really powerful on what I'm hearing of. I wantto define what an ideal package looks like for me, and I'm sure that you didsome of that work even before you had the offer letter from them of saying Iwant whether it's you know, benefits, whether it's salary, whether it's bonus,whatever that is being able to put that on paper, see how there's compares, butthen come forth and say, Here's what I want And I think this is That's areally powerful lesson. I think that a lot of times we look at, what do wewant in response to an offer? I think that there's a difference in sayingWhat do I want agnostic of this offer and then I can come back. And I thinkthat the the point you made there of also time benefit into what is thecompany? Get out of this. Like, Why is this a smart move? That, to me is alsolike great negotiation that you would do for your prospect. Right of I'mgonna ask for this or you're gonna pay for this, whatever it is. But here'sthe benefit you get. And so how was it received from the company when you cameback with, you know, your ideal asks, Yeah. And to your point, like you wantthis to be a win win. Think like I've seen many people make the mistakesbefore making negotiations, uh, you know, kind of like aggressive, if youwill law ending up in. You're kind of combative type language. And it's notproductive whatsoever. Like you've both got that Teoh this fire along the pathand you want to just get it across the finish line. So but it's important.Thio kind of speak up, you know, for what's important and, you know, wellfounded asks based upon, you know, market research. Or, you know,benchmark studies, you know, definitely helped. Kind of having the confidenceto make these asks. But overall like it, it's funny, right? Because when Iremember, like making these ass and I'm thinking all of a sudden I'm waitingfor the CEO to respond to it and, like, actually sent it on a Saturday and thehours are kind of ticking by and I'm like, I'm going to get a response likewhat's going on? And, you know, usually I'd coach my reps in this situationjust to say, Hey, like, be calm and confident, like you've got theprospects of this point. You know you've done your work like it just it'sup to them now to come and kind of meat you that the other 10% of the way andseal the deal and have to kind of take some of my own advice there a littlebit and just chill and know that I put in the work to put myself in a positionwhere we were ready to see all the steel and again, overall, it was it wasvery well received. I think the CEO appreciated the way that I went aboutit and again, literally a matter of a day or two later were ableto solidifythat thoughts on your you know, from yourexperience. Or maybe, you know, had they come back differently. I'mthinking about a scenario where an employee may lay something out and anemployer may come back and say, This just isn't feasible. Any thoughts thereon what you would have done? If I mean, would it have been a deal breaker toyou to say, if we really can't meet these things, this is just not theright role. Were there there, you know, your must haves versus Nice to havesome curious what you scenario plan in your mind. Yeah, I mean, the way I sentit over in an email, I sent it over and...

...said, Hey, like, here's here's the onlyasked I'll ever have here's what's important to me and ranked in order ofpriority. So I wanted to kind of give them an understanding of where my headwas at and like now, whether it was, I don't think any of them wouldnecessarily deal. Break is. But that was strong preferences. And that waslike, I think, well received also and just kind of giving them, like someband with an understanding of, like where they could maybe push back on alittle bit, knowing that they had a very serious candidate that was readyto suspend interviewing at other companies also. So I'm someone thatdoesn't tend to overthink these things too much and trying scenario, playedtoo much and live on what else? Because you just never know until you get thatask you out there and again, I believe you've got to be bold enough to ask forwhat you believe your worth and just trust that you know you can workthrough anything If both parties are committed to making it work. Yeah, I I think that bold enough to askfor for what you're worth and what's important to you. I think that doingthe research ahead of time. I mean, that's one thing I think, for anybodylistening that yes, your general market research. But revenue collective is apretty powerful resource because you get to hear from real people that theseair reasonable asks these air things that others expect in these roles andbeing able to do that, I think about, you know, how do we make sure that it'san expectation that any of our sales hires any of our sales leaderspecifically are going in with a perspective of what they want? Like, Ithink that helps all of us in doing that. So I would invite any of ourlisteners as you're looking at new roles. Thio, you know, agnostic of whatthe offer says Think about the things that are really important to you andsee if those air things that that you can boldly ask for the worst thatsomeone could say is No. And you can then make the decision. If it's if it'sthe right place for you. Yeah, exactly like you. What is it? I think MJ mighthave said one day that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take right, so Ithink you've gotta have that confidence to ask. And it's definitely easier tofeel more confident when it's backed by research. Yeah, yeah, I I love that. Sohow how many days, weeks, months, Are you into your new gig so weak to daythree? Uh, overall. All right, How you doing? It's like drinking like a from afire hose. But again, like that's That's what I signed up for. And that'swhat I love. Like a trust that the team there is showing me already to kind ofbring me into awesome sales conversations and kind of given freerein. Thio redefine what the sales process looks like. Um, and kind of putthe stamp on that again. It's been very rewarding and validating that I madethe right decision. Well, my congrats on your new gig. Two weeks and threedays in I'm I'm grateful that you and I got to spend the time together todaytalking about your journey from transitioning from a role that youdidn't really necessarily plan to leave. But how you turn that into anopportunity toe boldly ask for what you wanted. Thio take a new leadership roleand to find your next early stage company to make a big impact. It's It'sexciting to see, and I hope that we get to have you on in a couple months andhere, hear about the progress you've made? Yeah, 100%. This is being fun andagain, like you said something earlier on the podcast about giving back to thecommunity, and I think that's that's really important. And that's why Ijumped at the opportunity today to kind of speak Thio. What helped methroughout that the job hunt process and hopefully can help someone else orother people throughout. There's I've gotten Cem Cem pretty keytakeaways from today. I told you I'm better, not better. Or be better, notbitter. I'm taking that like that's gonna become a household phrase aroundhere. But there's a ton of other ones, too, so I appreciate it. And with that,we're signing off from our revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey.Like Gordon, this is Matt. Tell Martin...

...and we will see you next time. Allright, Crew, That's a wrap. That was a really wonderful conversation with MattKill Martin. And before you hit end right now, make sure you stay tunedbecause we have a bonus clip. Matt and I were jamming and decided to keephitting record, so make sure you tune into that. The revenue collectivepodcast is powered by outreach. The sales engagement platform for themodern sale. Zorg Want to see the number one sales engagement platformcould do for you? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io toe Learn more. Alright crew. Matt and I were jammingafter this recording and we got into some specifics and I had to ask him ifwe could go back live because there's some key pieces as he, you know, wentacross, went about developing his deal that I think are pretty key. And one ofthe things I brought up to Matt was, you know, as a woman in business, and Ispend a lot of time thinking about diverse talent, you know, he said hewas, he boldly asked. He had the confidence Thio and I like to thinkabout, you know, how can we tell more stories so that women minority talent,people that maybe traditionally aren't as boldly or confident or comfortableasking boldly, How can we help them also come to the table with this muchresource. And Matt, you were sharing that there were, You know, I thoughtthere was pretty interesting piece that you said you stopped rank your asks.And so there was some vulnerability there that you came in to say, Listen,I may not get all of these, but I'm I'm willing to show my hand of what'simportant to me. And you said it's important for an employee to not thinkthat an employer is trying to screw them at every part of the deal. And Ithink that is, that is, sometimes you know how it can feel or some of the ourown biases that come into this. And I love to hear just some of yourexperiences of how you how you gave benefit of the doubt. I know youmentioned, you know, educating your now employer on some of the market value,even. Yeah, and you want to avoid that adversarial situation, right? Like Ithink that's what I what I bring it back to because you've got this farlike, you both want to make the deal work, and you want to avoid, you know,kind of leaving a bad taste in anyone's mouth at the final stages. Like youwanna walk away with a true win win. So I think that's where it's important.Thio again, like let them know and be transparent about like, what'simportant to you. In my case, that was stack ranking. Some of the asks thatbeing okay with not getting everything and not kind of like digging in theirheels and saying these air complete dealbreakers But, you know, maybecommunicating that they're strong preferences, but, you know, open toe abit of back and forth on them. Yeah, And so when you came to do your deal,you know, I think that there's a lot of stereotypes, especially for companiesthat maybe haven't traditionally been in the SAS business or technology space.And I think that is the case with the company you're with. Is that a lot ofthis? That there they've been more industry focused. So the fact this techor SAS peace and bringing in talent on that side, it was new to them. And so,you know, coming out as a sales leader oftentimes were incentivized by, youknow, commissions or our sales, but that can also early stage incentivizethe wrong behavior. So talk to me about maybe what? The original. You have toget into specifics, obviously. But maybe the structure of what they hadproposed versus where you all landed and shares you're able to I recognizethat, you know, wanna be wanna be sensitive to the company right now.Yeah, and obviously like in any early stage company. And, you know, coming ata VP of sales position like equity is an important consideration in theoverall compensation package. And again, like I think, this is where it's superbeneficial having some of this research...

...and having access to it to know whatthe market rate is and what to ask for, Um, type of saying I'm, you know,sometimes giving your employees the benefit of the doubt. If their initialoffer isn't there, and you will, it will tell you a lot when you make someof these asks around how your potential employer actually responds to them, andit will tell you how they typically like to negotiate and how they valueyour talent. So in my case, I couldn't have asked for a better process goingthrough it all and again, with obviously equity being a big piece ofthat. I wanted to make sure that the incentives were aligned for me to comein and feel like an owner and not just encourage the sales team to take onyour shitty deals that turnout quickly in favor of, you know, kind of gettingpaid quickly on that commission. But like truly thinking about how do webuild this into a sustainable business over time that has a very large term on,you know, will obviously help us a long time from a revenue multiple standpointor talking about any kind of like exit a liquidity event later on. Mm. Andwhen you develop the language of how you wanted to ask, did you just come upwith it on your own? Where you did you turn to like mentors? Or, you know,other people to say, How can I ask for this in a way that feels equitable,like not Thio equitable in the sense that I'm doing this because I want theI won't have aligned incentives versus a land grab for just more money, and Ithink that sometimes is a really fine line Yeah, exactly. Because you don'twant to. Just It has to be given take. You want to come away with a win win?You don't want to just come off of someone that just asks and takeseverything type of things. So it's a delicate conversation toe have. And Iwant to actually turn back to the founder and CEO Ambassador for who isto retain a really good relationship with. And I wanted Thio pick his brainon, you know, being in that CEO seat. And how would you know? How would heappreciate a potential VP of sales? Like ask, you know, making some ofthese asks And how would he appreciate this being framed up type of thing andagain, like that was super beneficial and just leaning on some of the youknow, folks within my network thio get their perspective on things, and theneven still, I kind of wrote this email up and I had it sitting there. I feltgood about it, but I slept on it and wait until the next day to send it. Iactually made a couple of weeks the next day because I didn't want to actout of emotion. I wanted Thio, you know, kind of think with logic and reasonthrough this and make sure that I had a chance to sleep on it and feel goodabout it before hitting that send button. Yeah, I think that that takingthe care to do that and it could be it could be tempting to want to just hit,send and have this rapid fire negotiations. But recognizing thatthere's ah, there's power and value and slowing down a little bit. Yeah. I mean,a lot of folks that have worked with me before will know that I'm a big fan ofthe phrase. Sometimes you've got to slow down to speed up. And a lot ofthat time, the meaning behind that is just thinking a little bit morestrategically and clearly through what you're doing on making sure you'recommunicating the right way. And the message is going to be received theright way versus just trying Thio, Go, go! Go and get to the finish line asquick as possible. It's okay to slow down every now and then when thingswere important. More of the walking, the walk there, showing you're showingthe way you work. I like it. A little bit of walking. All right, now we'resigning off for Riel. This was helpful. I wanted to get some of those tangiblepieces just because, as we were as we were ripping after we got off the line,I thought that our audience might like to hear him. So, Matt, thank you.You've been a gracious host twice. Now, look at that to podcast in one day.This was Matt's first time. He did great, guys. All right, this is Casey.Like Gordon, I'm signing off of the revenue collected podcast.

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