The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 29: Now Is The Time: Holistic Marketing Review for the New Year feat Marty Thompson

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Now Is The Time: Holistic Marketing Review for the New Year feat Marty Thompson

...hi way Hi and welcome to the revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host today. I have the chance to sit down with Marty Thompson, and we're going to talk about why now, Right now is the time for a holistic marketing review for the new year, where in December it feels organic to start looking forward. But what Marty is going to talk about is that it's not just one or two channels. It's really looking holistically and a lot of times going back to the basics. So I'm excited that you're here. I'm excited to sit down with Marty on before we jump in. I want to give a shout out to our sponsor. The Revenue collective podcast is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern sales work. But don't just take our word for it. The VP of sales, a tableau says they run their entire business from outreach and snowflakes. Enterprise sales director says outreach is the pillar behind how they've been able to scale. Do you want to see what the number one sales engagement platform can do for your business? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io. To learn more, you'll get an inside view of how outreach brings efficiency, visibility and versatility to modern sales teams. Again, that's W W w dot outreach dot io. With that, let's jump in and hear our conversation with Marty. Hello and welcome to the revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host today. I have the chance to sit down with Marty Thompson. Who's the CMO it clear software. I always ask my guest a few of their question a few questions prior to going live like, How much revenue do you manage or number of employees and Marty's air? My favorite responses I've got yet, he says. For revenue managed, not enough and number of employees managed me myself and I. I love that. I can already tell that we're gonna have fun in this conversation. Marty has been at this 20 years, and today we were. We were catching up before we go here on this show, and he was sharing with me that he's been having a tremendous amount of conversations through the revenue collective community, and there were just these consistent trends that started Thio emerge And so we're sitting down today. We're wrapping up 2020. By the time this goes live will be in December. And I think everybody is really reflecting on. What is next year look like? What are the things I should be doing? So we hope this is timely. We hope this is tangible that when you listen to this, you can take it and go into you know, your home office and empower through. So with that, I'm gonna I'm gonna introduce my guest, Marty, and we'll get going. Marty, welcome to the show, Casey. Thank you. It's great to be with you today. Thanks for the opportunity. I'm really looking forward to this. So I dropped in and you guys hear me talk about this A lot of revenue. Collective slack channel. I dropped a note in there and said, Hey, I'm really looking to talk to marketing leaders who have perspectives across the entire really business lifecycle building marketing for the first time. Also, those that might be a bit more involved in saying, What do I do next? And you raised your hand. You said, Hey, let's chat. I think I might have something to add here, So I would love to hear you know, you share a bit about your journey over the past month or so, speaking with a lot of our members and revenue leaders and general perspective on what you're hearing, and then we'll do a click down. We'll get deeper into some specifics, but I'd love to hear your general take. So my general take is that as a profession, you know, within the marketing and the sales community, we've all been challenged. Obviously, our businesses have been challenged. We, as individuals and professionals, have been challenged on. We're trying to make sense of all of that to pull it together and keep working and, you know, keep the machinery running and and, you know, keep our deals closing and all that good stuff along the way. I think we're learning a lot as individuals and as professionals, especially within the RC community. And it's really more important than ever that we chair. You know what we think we know, but also what we think we're learning. And we can really help each other that way, not just through this pandemic environment, but going forward. So I think this new environment of of being really open about our challenges and successes and learning from them and sharing that information is really critical and it's a really, really good thing. I hadn't heard that perspective, but you've touched on so many things that I think I've observed and been really enjoying about this moment in time. And I say enjoying with a giant...

Asterix have recognized that that none of this is ideal. But some things that have been coming from this that do feel more connected. And so I I am really grateful that you framed it that way because I think that, you know, there are some businesses and some leaders who are having also really great years, right? Like for business some year, some companies, some individuals. This has been some of their better, better years and I think, But even in the face of that, that may not have been the expectation right? You might have an influx of demand or adapting to new mediums, adapting to new team structures, and so this moment of adapting and the whole world changing around us. I mean, that's marketing in its essence, and then you're probably you're accelerating that so I think that we're a unique group that's probably predisposed to be okay in this environment, and we're accelerating. E think that this covitz specifically in this moment in time is accelerated. Some things that probably needed to happen anyways, curious your thoughts that not I would agree with all of that. And, you know, in this business, you you naturally assume that that we're all the same. In other words, you know, we like the center stage. We liked the attention. We like the stress, you know, We like all of it. If we weren't doing this, we would be in Fillmore rock stars or whatever. The reality is that people are just people and, you know, whether you're a marketing executive or a sales guru or whatever, it doesn't mean that you're you're always on. And, you know, I think the result of that in this environment has been a lot of people that in the past really crave that kind of excitement. Find it really challenging. The isolation could be really challenging for those people who really have a high social dietary requirement, if you will. That is the best way I've heard that described social dietary requirement. But it could be equally challenging for people, other people, people like me that could turn that extrovert part off and then take a great deal of pleasure in stepping back, doing a lot of reading, doing a lot of research, spending a lot of time not, you know, in that sort of, you know, place of marketing and really, you know, staying in touch with who you really are when you're not doing what you dio. And the way I look at this is, you know, we keep talking about how effective leaders need to be vulnerable, and I've seen MAWR vulnerability among my professional peers than I ever have in the last 20 years to, and I think that is one of the hopefully one of the benefits of all of this is that executives, busy professionals. They're learning that it's all right to be vulnerable and to share that with with their teams, not just with our significant others and our our kids, but to really openly share that with each other. And I think that's you know, I can't say that it's a benefit of this environment, but it's something that we should really appreciate that's happening within this ecosystem, this crazy ecosystem and we need to keep that going because we'll all be better for that, I think. And as I mentioned before this, this new sharing of ideas is really fantastic. I really couldn't agree more on the on both the vulnerability side of us as individuals and as leaders, teammates, colleagues, etcetera but also on the, you know, the intellectual side and the sharing of ideas and learnings. I think that this has been such an equalizer in so many ways. Rarely do you have something where as a society or at a macro level, we experience something in unison. And while I give air quotes, life still is going on right. We still have Thio log on and work. We still have Thio. It's not like we can completely hit pause on all of these things and um, I think that that has that's been a really beautiful piece of it because, right, whether it's cove it or something else, we're all going through something and so, recognizing that your colleagues, your peers, the people leaders, people you admire are coming toe every meeting, every zoom call, carrying a little something and allowing them Thio bring that full self,...

I think is pretty powerful. And you had mentioned that you were eso within the revenue collective community, the RC community. There's a lot of ways in which we can connect with members. You can do that through the slack channel. You can do that through events, the podcast like we're doing here. And you were mentioning that you were having several of the lunch rule. It's it's it's an opportunity for members to connect and, you know, randomly be paired. And you said that so much of the conversation you saw it almost 50 50. It was spending a lot of time talking about this topic that we are right now. This evolution of the professional and what they look like today and what are different people going through. And then you said there was this other side that was kind of like work is still there. And there were these recurring themes And so I'm curious as you were speaking to these folks on the work side. What were some of those things that people are coming, you know, are wondering about and that you're thinking about as we begin toe wrap up 2020 and do planning for the upcoming year. Yeah, great question. So So you know, when when we started to see the the overall slowdown in business, all of us, we're taking a step back and asking, I think the same questions. How can we keep the pipe pipeline velocity going? How can we continue Thio close deals to get new customers in a very challenging environment? And it was curious to me that, you know, we're all asking the same source of questions. And yet when you go out and you look at the real world, what's the first thing that marketing teams tend to do under these conditions? They do all of the things that we universally condemn. They just start sending more and more emails. They just they doom or and more ads they're doing. They just double down on the same stuff, knowing full well that, you know, it's it's what we all tell each other not to do. In other words, don't doom or do smarter. Right and smarter can take many different forms, you know, it could be a B m, right. It could be influencer marketing. It could be a lot of things, but it's just funny that, you know, we're all saying the same things and you have. The reality is by and large, you know, a lot of companies end up doing that. They just double down on the same dumb things they've been doing, right? Why do you think that is? I mean, I totally like I'm thinking of my past life and there's moments of stress. Where Shit, How are we going to hit numbers? And you do you start doing, like, thes things that you would tell any marketing one on one like, Don't do that. I I'm curious. Feel that I have some immediate thoughts come to mind. But I'm curious. Why do you think that is? As professionals and as marketers, we lean in tow to what we shouldn't. I think it's because we don't you know, we don't really take enough time as as a profession as a group within an organization to take a step back and first of all, sort of re evaluate everything we're doing. In other words, we have all of this great information, these great ideas, and yet we're still kind of stuck in the same tracks that we've always used, right? So I'll give you an example. We keep talking about, like, buyer personas, and we all know that the notion of a buyer persona isn't what we thought it waas 20 years ago. It's much more sophisticated. It's all about their, you know, their fears, their concerns. The so called buyers journey, if you will. Right? There's nuts, you know, so complex and so unique to each one. But it takes it takes time. It takes a lot of effort to really invest in that. So why aren't we doing that right? Why aren't we demanding that from our from the organizations we work in? How to marketers really? Listen, right? E mean, when is the last time a marketer actually sat in on a sales call or made a customer visit or routinely sits in on services, meetings or support? In other words, marketers need to get a lot better about really listening. Okay. And I think you know, I had someone ask me a question the other day. Well, how do you How do you know if you're a good listener? I said because you're not talking, right? You're just listening. You know thing is in a relationship. It's just listening to relationship work later, right? Yeah, the listening part. I think I'm reflecting a bit on the sales and marketing organizations, and I'll spend some time focusing on marketing because I think sales being so close to the customer does have its...

...its own challenges. But when I'm thinking about marketers, I've rarely seen a marketing organization that would say they have enough resource. I think that traditionally inside of organizations, we index on over index on the product. The thing that we're selling, which does need to be sound and the individuals of the resource, is that air meeting with customers. But that middle ground, which drives demand, which has that pipeline velocity often times I find that it is whether it's an actual dollars, whether it is in headcount. It's really challenging, I think thio to justify that always, especially if you're doing that within a board or, you know, your senior leadership that maybe a few steps removed and this is a theme that's come up quite a bit on the R C. Podcast is marketing is one of the job functions that is most often oversimplified because We're all recipients of marketing messages. We see it out in the world. Whether that's, you know, advertisements or or emails, it's almost this. We'll just It's just a campaign. But all the thought that goes into it actually should be much more complex. And it could be the key to unlocking who your customer is. And so I'm wondering, you know, as we're talking to marketing leaders, that maybe you're saying yes, I do need to slow down. But how do I get my organization to understand that to give me that beat that that allows me the permission to go do that? I'm curious if you have any thoughts or tips or tricks. Experience is good or bad, that of being able to get that will, say, mental margin to do the the brainy work before you get into the creating of it. So I think it's really important to understand that, you know, for the majority of us and and what we're doing, we're all more or less using the same tool kit, and that tool kit tends to look like email marketing. It tends to look like a B M. It looks like content, you know, it looks like influence, etcetera, etcetera. So we're all using the same tools. They may not have to be the same brands, right, s. So we're using Hub Spot, for example. In the past, we were using Terminus and other other tools. As a result of that, we naturally fall into this mindset. And I think our executive teams fall into the mindset of We're using these tools and we're getting various metrics from the tools. And that's what marketing is right. Marketing is like How maney em que Els You're getting etcetera, etcetera, these air primarily tool driven metrics. But I think it's important that as marketers, we take the time to frame conversations with the executive team. And I think with everyone in the company, quite frankly, that it's more than simply the tools and and the metrics that those tools are out putting for us to evaluate in some way. Because otherwise we're not being genuine as marketers, and we're not really fulfilling the potential. I think that marketing provide can provide for that for that company. But that's a big conversation, right? E think so? Kyle Lacy, you know, mentioned recently that you know, like 20% of their focus isn't on demand. Gen You know, it's it's everything else, right? And I think it's that everything else that is becoming Mawr important for every company. And I think we've seen that because we kept, you know in April and May, we kept seeing more and more emails, etcetera. We mentioned this before, and it was it wasn't working, right? Right. It doesn't work that way. If anything, you can get to the point where it actually becomes detrimental. Yeah, I mean, anecdotally, I I've been on an inbox cleanse of un, subscribing to anything that is noise that that doesn't immediately. And I found a lot for those brands, businesses that have maintained in my inbox, its's for a very specific reason, right? And it's probably that if you looked at their buyer customer journey, I probably fit really well within that, versus those that to your point, we're just firing off a massive amount of messages. There's two concepts that you were talking about that I wanna highlight for audience. So the first in a past life. I worked with Fortune 500 Global 1000 companies on building their innovation practices and innovation and marketing. Oftentimes you see several of the same folks bleed over into that because it's, um, you have thio nebulous outcomes. You have thio kind of try things out, test it. There's a very test and learned mindset which...

...often marketers are really well suited to Dio. And one of the concepts we talked about continuously with our clients was outcomes over outputs. Outputs become the thing that we all rest in because they there the thing that we can check off. But often our outputs are they could be directions that we're doing something they could be direction, that we're doing something wrong. But we continue to measure it because it makes us feel good, right? In a world where there is little control, that's the thing that we can count on. But the outcome is what is our business goal? And I find that the organizations who do it exceptional align their sales, their product, their technical organizations. They have representatives across all of those that are aligned to outcomes. And then there are these peer level conversations cross functional off. Are we all meeting those? And the accountability comes much more at a team level to the outcomes rather than by discipline of output. And though that becomes the difference I've seen between really high functioning and adaptable organizations is they don't become, to your point, married to a tool or the wrong metric. Just because that's what they said in January, they should measure. Wow, I love that. And that analogy between outcomes and something else comes to mind, and that is a wellness. So if you're in a health care system and you know outcomes and the connotations around that word, um, sometimes we'll focus on wellness. How can how can I keep my patient population healthier? And they use an outcomes based approach? And in some ways, that outcomes based approach is similar to keeping the customer is healthy, right? The market became healthy, etcetera. Yeah, I almost have this. I want, if any of the marketing Martek companies listening. I want you all to take an approach of telling which customers are actually not good for you. Like how cool would it be if a Martek company, instead of weaken sell to anyone, took this outcomes message and started to really hone in to say here, the right customers for us, like I wonder what that would dio Thio to the marketing community and how they would receive that just as we're talking here because I don't always see that from even the Martek companies there. You know, just push that we can weaken solve anybody's problems. But I think it be really cool to say there these are the outcomes we tackle and hear the companies that are right for us and being bold and turning away some customers, too. I know that's probably a bit controversial, but I as we're sitting here talking, I'm like, Oh, I'd be I'd be all in for a company that would willing to double down on the right kind of philosophy. Oh, absolutely. It's important to know those things. Let's put it that way. Way could spend a whole hour talking about that, right? The second piece, I wanted to touch on on something you were talking about. I'm curious your thoughts on this because I think that there are there different schools of thought. So a few years ago, I read a book. I can't recall the author's name right now, but the book is called the Machine, and it's a sales and marketing book around division of labor and making sure that you really you know, you remove. You allow each member of your team to focus on the one thing you need them to do. Excellent. So, for instance, you may have somebody wholly focused on content so wholly focused on top of funnel, wholly focused on closing instead of it being, you know, having a marketing team or marketing individual sales individual focused on several items that hit home to me pretty hard, because I know that they're just organically as professionals and as individuals, things that were really great at and by doing multiple things at once. Often there's diminishing return, but going back to my original point getting their resource is to really divide out that labor and prove that out can be challenging. But as you were talking around, you know that customer journey. I almost wonder what it looks like if you had a marketing team that each individual was responsible for a piece of that and knowing that so well in bringing the best ideas, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that, that holistic team versus division of labor and what that looks like Whoa, that's a good question. Wow, that's a tough one. I think, in a larger company, larger marketing department, that division of labor is sort of a natural consequence, and and we tend to hire again against that. We'll go after someone that's really good at producing content or someone that really knows demand. Gen. Etcetera, etcetera. I'm a big fan of cross pollination. In other words, if I can get someone that's really good at demand, Gen. And they want to learn more about producing stellar content, get them to spend time with the content team. And I think overall, having that...

...sort of that sort of environment where everyone can learn from each other is overall really beneficial. The reality think is that this industry in this profession has become so sequestered because it is complicated that it can at times be really difficulty for a small company, not so much, because, you know, you often hire someone that they just they have to do more because there isn't anyone else and those folks Aaron, really high demand right now, especially. But I love the idea of sure having having a division of labor but also creating an environment where everyone can learn from each other and sort of like, move around, if you will. Right. Um, I also love the idea of, you know, nurturing people that are in a completely different role. For example, if you're in str and over time you it's obvious this person just has a knack with communication, and they have a knack with really great content and can quickly articulate, You know, fairly complicated ideas. They need to be a marketing. Yeah, there's there's two pieces in that that that air really fascinating to me. So the first is that all reference. Another book. It's called Company of One, and it talks about as you were just talking about that that came from a very strategic team leader perspective. And so in the book, they talk about a lot of times. People say, Do what you're passionate about, but in the book, they argue that passion comes from mastery. When you master something, then you get passionate about, and that's when you become really powerful, like creating whether it's, you know, well thought of it, a business off of it, etcetera. And as you were just talking there, I was thinking about as a leader. It's almost that once you become a master marketer, you master. You know that that discipline that, then that's when the play starts. That's when you start to observe different team members. What is that little skill they have that you could hone or pour into? And that's when you almost become like the the conductor of the orchestra, right? It's as you start to be able to see all the talents come together, and that to me, is it took me. It took me a little while ago, moving from individual contributor to team leader, and there was that that the painful part where you were going from somebody who was contributing to now observing the team. But when you really begin to take on like that conductor seat and seeing how you could start to play, there's something really beautiful within that. And the second piece and I want to hear your thoughts on these with the second piece is I think there's also from a team management perspective, something really powerful about measuring or adding in whether it's okay, ours or some other measurement, you know, mechanism off how people cross pollinate because you could say, Yeah, that's a best practice. But if you actually don't incentivize and help measure that or make it, you know, a celebrated thing within your company and culture, it becomes very difficult for people to make that a priority because they're balancing all the other priorities. So I think that, you know, as you're setting goals for this upcoming year and if cross pollination or, you know, exposure to different departments, it's something to maybe think about, of making it a tangible thing. You know, that you're actually measuring that. Not just saying would be a nice tohave. I also think it's a it's a matter of trust. So, you know, we're living through a time when, you know, I've probably talked with 20 different people since June that they lost their jobs in marketing and it was their first job in marketing. Uh, and that's always terribly, terribly difficult for for younger people, you know, within this profession to suddenly face that kind of a reality that in spite of you know, all of the the kind words and the and the culture building and everything else that you know, bad things happen But I think one thing. You, you know, we, as you know executives could do is, you know, do the best we can to establish trust within the organization. And if part of trust really means that we're showing a willingness to help people learn other disciplines while they're with us, right, right, you know, and to really, you know, help them share those experiences with others That's going to help everyone, especially those individuals that you know that do leave the company because you know, people, people do leave on their own as well. And I hate to see companies that really talk about their family right, because, let's face it,...

...it isn't family, you know, when when reality hits, you know, you don't feel like a family member. When that happens, right? So it's It's important, I think, use use language that is perhaps more accurate and more appropriate. I don't think I don't think businesses should appropriate the language, the intimate language of true families and true relationships. I think that is such a bold statement and you don't often hear it, especially within the marketing world, right? Everybody wants that fun culture and they often begin Thio dip into that more to your point intimate side of family. I love what you just said because I actually think it frames the employer employee relationship in a much one more realistic way, but also in a mutually beneficial way to say to, as an employee employer, to say to your employees, We are We're together for this moment in time. But both of us will have, you know, lives after we're together, most likely. And so how do we maximize that time together? How do we pour into you so that you have the best possible experience and take that onto whatever you do next and vice versa? How do we extract the most value from you? As you know, a professional, your experiences, expertise, etcetera. And I think that it's it's much more authentic in my in my view. And I just think I don't think that everybody thinks that way. But as you were saying that I'm like, you know, aggressively head nodding over here like, Yes, I totally concede that. And in the times that I've approached team members with, how can we mutually make this the most beneficial? How can I make you the best professional you wanna be. I find that the trust goes much deeper and those relationships last across our lifetime, not just our tenure of working together and that ultimately I mean, for me, that's what I want. I want to know that I have teammates, whether they're at my company or not. But we've brought value to each other across careers. I agree. And that and that. You know, that sense of connectedness, that those relationships that you develop within any company, they'll last longer than that situation. You know, I still have friends that I worked with over 20 years ago in the Bay Area, and we just happened to have worked together, right? But the environment in which we worked it was a good part of that. In other words, it allowed people to develop those kinds of relationships. You know, give you another example. You know, I chatted with someone the other day and they were like, I've applied to over 200 different companies, you know, and the type of responses they were getting ranged from God awful silence to, you know, a personal note, right? And I don't understand companies that, you know, they talk about culture and family and relationships on the one hand. And yet, on the other hand, when it comes to the HR experience, they're not giving applicants the time of day, you know, even a basic sort of like, thank you for applying and some kind of response and, you know, and then on the other end, what What does it look like? You know, when you're when you're leaving a organization, right? How do you treat people when they leave the organization? These are the types of things that you know as a marketer. Perhaps I shouldn't care about. But I think is a market. Or perhaps I should. And we all should were more than just a machine. I think marketers can be and are to your point earlier. You know, we're doing farm or than just the obvious, right? If you're doing it right, you're doing farm. Or you might even be like the high school counselor, right? Right. And I think that we what you said around the candidate experience and the employee experience in the way that today's consumer is going, they care about all of that. They care about how you treat your people how you treat your communities, how you treat perspective employees just as much as they care about the products and services you sell. And we I know again in a past life, we actually worked with a large company and their challenge, their problem. Statement waas How can we make the employee experience as rich as we make the customer experience? And I thought that was a really meet challenge to say we focus so much on the external of who's giving us dollars. But we don't all translate that into the people who are gonna exponentially be responsible for our growth by their ideas and their expertise and their experiences. And it was a fascinating, you know, twist. And I think that if you ask the majority of, you know, HR hiring managers, that's certainly usually it's I'm underwater and oh, shit, I just need another body...

...in here. It's not often that thoughtfulness that you go out and really build a campaign around and have the closed the loop, etcetera on guy. I'd be interested to hear from our community if you're listening. Anybody that has concepts on this or content on this because to your point I think that your your friends experience of those 200 companies from Silence Toe really personal notes is probably indicative of what we're seeing across different size of companies, industries, etcetera. Yeah, absolutely. I was chatting with someone else the other day about about forecasting on and, you know, they like many companies, they sort of reverse engineer that they're forecasting mechanism. In other words, if we need to hit this revenue number and or this, you know, number of new customers or whatever, these are the things we need to dio and they're doing all those things and they're not hitting their numbers. So they decide. Well, we'll just amp up. We'll just send out more, even more. Exactly. We'll do all of this, all of the other things that we normally dio. And once again, I think that's a great opportunity for marketing executives to take a step back as they're going into the new year. To really start thinking about some other things, right? And like I had a list here, I put somewhere like, for example, for us. I mean, partnerships have become absolutely critical and, you know, partnerships are they're hard. They take a lot of work. It takes a while to a great book to actually buy one of our members, Matt Bright. It's called the Partnership Principle, and it talks exactly about that. That that is a very bespoke practice of developing partnerships and the same people who are your you know, your SDRs or BDR s. Those air, maybe not the same people that are your partnership leads, but the sale cycle might be longer, but the value could also be exponential. So I think that, you know, for any of our audience, if that isn't something, considering how you might pilot that or begin to test the viability of it could be pretty paramount for this upcoming year. And I think that that's a savvy, you know, you're you're potentially increasing your platform because you have to companies doing that in concert versus you, just shouting into the ether louder and more frequently, absolutely way all talk about Omni channels where the Omni Channel experience. And yet how many companies do you know that really do direct mail Really? Well, yeah, it's sort of Z as if direct mail or, you know, cool packages through the mail or even billboards became so old fashioned. And yet companies that are using direct mail effectively are knocking it out of the park. They're getting really creative there, you know. It's completely plugged in and integrated to part of an overall experience. They're communicating with their current customers. They're finding new opportunities. They're up selling. They have great referral programs. All of the things that everyone thinks is sort of like on the periphery of the normal 9 to 5. You know that marketing does. I mean, this is the time to really take a step back and fold those into the batter. Start experimenting. If you're a larger company, create a SWAT team where I have two or three people and their job is just to go do some outlandish stuff. Yeah, and I think that going back to our point earlier in that team, I think that it's one of the challenges I've seen him working with large organizations is they An executive gets super excited about it, well, put together this team and then move on to the next shiny thing or will be, you know, leave the organization, and then these individuals are sitting there saying crap, Who's our executive sponsor. And so I think for anybody that you know is maybe building a SWAT team or is like listening to say, Hey, that could be really cool Realize that you have to go wider in the organization and you have to align your efforts to outcomes and the frequency of communication up and out needs to be pretty high at the onset and making sure that you're you're bringing learnings as your currency because I think that often times the SWAT team wants to go away and they can fall victim to this and we'll wait till it's perfect. We're working on something big, and the truth is, is that you have to build those quick wins and momentum going to your point earlier, Marty around trust just like you would with an employee. You have to start to build trust with any new things set forth, and so I think that slowing down to our point earlier. If you are establishing any new efforts, any new team capability, it's just say let's hit a pause. Let's set, you know, what are the measurements that we want to set forth not just the outputs but the outcomes and How will we know that we're on the right track? And I think that it's it sounds so simple. Like, I think anybody listening would be like, Yeah, of course. And then you'd say,...

Have you done it? And they'd say, Well, no. So I just go back to basics, right? Absolutely. Another thing that we really don't take enough time to step back and and reevaluate I think on a regular basis is the technologies were using. So, you know, once we get sort of the Big Three, you know, marketing, automation, etcetera, etcetera. We just tend to kind of step back and and forget about it, you know, until renewal time or whatever. But I would also recommend that, especially for larger organizations, that they have an ongoing and regular technology review because there's so many marketing and ancillary marketing technologies out there that folks are using, and you could get an immense amount of intel from how they're being used and how effective they are. And once again, I mean, the revenue collective community is really great about that. I mean, I can you can get so much great input and feedback about the technologies out there to make really smart decisions very, very quickly. I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the biggest If I had to articulate. The biggest benefit is that the Access Thio experience and expertise that you may have a deficit in and getting that quickly and just validating the you know, the input in that this member group I have found to be one of the most participative that that I've seen in any community them a part of. The one thing I would also add for your tech review comment is I think there's a lot of power in communicating with your technical partners one your outcomes and strategy, how you will be measured by success and how you will measure them and also being proactive in telling them what a review cycle looks like. Because I find that Ah, lot of times there is Ah, there is this. I think any time you're in a service industry, you're you run victim to this, but your client will say, Here, just go do your thing and we're Yes, we're measuring this our our success over here, and there's this gap between they either expect that you know that or that you know, you communicate if something is awry. And so any partnerships that you bring on, I would say Bring them on with the mindset that you want them to be a successful as one of your employees. And if you cannot dedicate that time or mental share or mindshare, you know, mental capacity, maybe assess it. Is that the right partner to bring on or the right time to bring them on? Because I find that and this is, you know, lived experience for myself. I would bring on partners expecting them to fix problems. But I wouldn't spend the appropriate time on boarding or investing in that. And then at the end, the relationship wasn't successful and I was out the money that I had spent them with them. And so I recognize that in order to do that effectively, I had to communicate that at the onset and be willing toe budget the time as well as the dollars. Yeah, that's a great point, because so I found that with one technology marketing technology provider in particular, I don't know if I could mention their name or not, but the support I got from them hmm was fantastic. And, you know, this was a kind of a heavy touch technology A a B M based technology. And, you know, ramping up into something like a B M isn't easy, and it it touches upon so many different things. So you need you need a partner that can kind of help you through, help you through the process, help you to learn from You know what is working, what isn't and kind of validate the results you're getting and things of that nature. And it's really critical that whatever technology mix you have, you know, be sure you're getting the kind of support you need that could make all the difference in the world. I couldn't agree more. And I'm going back to our point earlier around the division of Labor, I think there's something really powerful with tasking one member of your team to have an eye on that or be assessing that. And I know we did that. My my last organization and I found that what we began to get out of our partners went up exponentially. When you have a single person that was measuring that as a part of their role versus it being a shared responsibility and people attending meetings but not really tuning in. And e mean we're all victim to it and not by any male intent. But just sometimes that's the nature of the beast. So I'm curious based on on some of your conversations. Are there any other closing thoughts or trends that you've observed? As as people are saying, you know, I'm looking forward at at what's next, and a couple of them that we've captured are spending time to listen and recognizing that marketing, you don't just have to measure output, you can measure outcome. And so taking that beat and recognizing your roll and impact in the organization's powerful we talked about...

...sometimes going back to the basics and recognizing that Mawr and Mawr often is not always the best answer. It's often the wrong answer, and so be making sure that we're working smarter. What else has been coming to mind for you? And this is I'm enjoying this riff so much I feel like this is just catching up with an old friend, and I'm over here like taking notes. Yeah, Oh my gosh, I mean, there's just so many other You know, I have a big list of things, but I would also say that we're all very anxious about 2021 you know, There, you know, the talk of, you know, several vaccines that will be available, you know, And we're all, you know, kind of assuming and or hoping that, you know, we could kind of rapidly get back to whatever it looked like before, and and that's, you know, we all want that, obviously, but we've also seen that you know, a lot of businesses now understand that they can. They can run much more efficiently by reducing their physical presence that people can work remotely. They can be Justus productive. So it could be this kind of mixed this hybrid approach. I might go into the office once a week so I could do the things that I need to do that require that you know that that physical presence and I could get my social fix right. But then the other three or four days, I can work remotely, because now we've proven that people can do it and business gets done. Justus. Well, so when people talk about the new normal, you know I would encourage you know, the R R C community to be thinking about the new normal in those terms. So I love that. What a good reframe we're now sort of like, You know, it's sort of like validated what? I thought one of the big promises of the Internet age was supposed to be all about the fact that, you know, sure, we don't have flying cars yet. But, you know, now we can work from home occasionally. Now we can reframe the way we do work and what what it looks like. And the result of that, I think, will be that, you know? Sure, you know, we'll go back to that normal. But it's a different normal now, and it will be a different normal. So how do we as marketers look at that? What? What does that mean for us, Right? Do we need to change the way we're doing things, you know? Is it more video? Well, that that's really a simple, you know, response to the whole thing. You know, more video. Whatever, right? It's much more than that. But I think, you know, take a step back and think about that now. that you know, we have a workforce that can that will be changed permanently. I think in the, you know, in 2021 moving forward. So what are the challenges and opportunities that you know that provides for us? Not only as as marketers, but you know, but also Justus people, right? What do we want that toe look like, Right. Let's use it to our advantage as well as as people Justus normal people. I think that's such a fascinating point. And you know, a lot of times I think that as marketers we are we're observers and reactors to the world around us. We are are trying thio in for what's happening, and I would encourage you know, those of you that that can find the mental margin and have the space to do this is maybe be proactive and what some of those assumptions or hypotheses are. That may be wrong. But being proactive in developing some test and learn approaches to how you might do that. And some examples might be that, you know, from a resource ing perspective, we don't have a full team. We might have a core team of strategist, but we use fractional team members for certain expertise. We may, to your point, rely on different ways of working like partnerships versus just traditional sales. And so I would invite, you know, as you're over the next several weeks, especially for our C members engage with with each other. Have these conversations. I have found that one of the most the best ways for me to get that mental margin is not to sit down and get out my pen and paper and say, OK, today I'm thinking it is to start with these conversations and just seeing the mind map that comes out and what directions it goes. I mean, even this conversation we've we've covered personal, we've covered professional, we've covered tools, we've covered team leadership. And it's My hope is that we see these little sparks of inspiration, and then you go get your new book. Then you go get your pen and say, How does this apply to my world? So whether it's the lunch roulette or the, you know, listening to podcast like this or other...

...meetings, it's engaging in that and seeing how we might spur this curiosity and creativity amongst each other. Toe to inform what you're doing in the next year. Marty, this has been fun. Thank you for the time today, Casey, you made my day. This has been great. It's really has been a blast. I'm I'm looking. We're recording in the Thanksgiving week and I'm looking forward Thio taking a beat and enjoying that. But I'm also really looking forward Thio 2021 being able to get our eyes on that and hopefully some new energy for us all. We'll have a great holiday drink. The good wine. This this thing coming today I'm not even waiting for Thursday. It'll be Monday night tonight. We're getting down with a good wine. So good for you. Yeah, You too. You too. Alright, Well, Marty Thompson, Thank you for being a guest on the show today. This is the revenue collective podcast where revenue leaders come together to talk about the rial challenges and triumphs of being in this crazy world of sales and marketing. My name is Casey. Like Gordon, I'm your host and we'll see you next time. Thank you, Marty. And thank you for everyone tuning in today. This is the revenue collective podcast. And it is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern sale Zorg you want to see with the number one sales engagement platform can do for your business? Simply head on over to www dot outreach dot io to learn more. We'll see you next time.

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