The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

Ep 29: Now Is The Time: Holistic Marketing Review for the New Year feat Marty Thompson

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Now Is The Time: Holistic Marketing Review for the New Year feat Marty Thompson

...hi way Hi and welcome to the revenuecollective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host today. Ihave the chance to sit down with Marty Thompson, and we're going to talk aboutwhy now, Right now is the time for a holistic marketing review for the newyear, where in December it feels organic to start looking forward. Butwhat Marty is going to talk about is that it's not just one or two channels.It's really looking holistically and a lot of times going back to the basics.So I'm excited that you're here. I'm excited to sit down with Marty onbefore we jump in. I want to give a shout out to our sponsor. The Revenuecollective podcast is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platformfor the modern sales work. But don't just take our word for it. The VP ofsales, a tableau says they run their entire business from outreach andsnowflakes. Enterprise sales director says outreach is the pillar behind howthey've been able to scale. Do you want to see what the number one salesengagement platform can do for your business? Head on over to www dotoutreach dot io. To learn more, you'll get an inside view of how outreachbrings efficiency, visibility and versatility to modern sales teams.Again, that's W W w dot outreach dot io. With that, let's jump in and hear ourconversation with Marty. Hello and welcome to the revenue collectivepodcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host today. I have thechance to sit down with Marty Thompson. Who's the CMO it clear software. Ialways ask my guest a few of their question a few questions prior to goinglive like, How much revenue do you manage or number of employees andMarty's air? My favorite responses I've got yet, he says. For revenue managed,not enough and number of employees managed me myself and I. I love that. Ican already tell that we're gonna have fun in this conversation. Marty hasbeen at this 20 years, and today we were. We were catching up before we gohere on this show, and he was sharing with me that he's been having atremendous amount of conversations through the revenue collectivecommunity, and there were just these consistent trends that started Thioemerge And so we're sitting down today. We're wrapping up 2020. By the timethis goes live will be in December. And I think everybody is really reflectingon. What is next year look like? What are the things I should be doing? So wehope this is timely. We hope this is tangible that when you listen to this,you can take it and go into you know, your home office and empower through.So with that, I'm gonna I'm gonna introduce my guest, Marty, and we'llget going. Marty, welcome to the show, Casey. Thank you. It's great to be withyou today. Thanks for the opportunity. I'm really looking forward to this. SoI dropped in and you guys hear me talk about this A lot of revenue. Collectiveslack channel. I dropped a note in there and said, Hey, I'm really lookingto talk to marketing leaders who have perspectives across the entire reallybusiness lifecycle building marketing for the first time. Also, those thatmight be a bit more involved in saying, What do I do next? And you raised yourhand. You said, Hey, let's chat. I think I might have something to addhere, So I would love to hear you know, you share a bit about your journey overthe past month or so, speaking with a lot of our members and revenue leadersand general perspective on what you're hearing, and then we'll do a click down.We'll get deeper into some specifics, but I'd love to hear your general take.So my general take is that as a profession, you know, within themarketing and the sales community, we've all been challenged. Obviously,our businesses have been challenged. We, as individuals and professionals, havebeen challenged on. We're trying to make sense of all of that to pull ittogether and keep working and, you know, keep the machinery running and and, youknow, keep our deals closing and all that good stuff along the way. I thinkwe're learning a lot as individuals and as professionals, especially within theRC community. And it's really more important than ever that we chair. Youknow what we think we know, but also what we think we're learning. And wecan really help each other that way, not just through this pandemicenvironment, but going forward. So I think this new environment of of beingreally open about our challenges and successes and learning from them andsharing that information is really critical and it's a really, really goodthing. I hadn't heard that perspective, but you've touched on so many thingsthat I think I've observed and been really enjoying about this moment intime. And I say enjoying with a giant...

Asterix have recognized that that noneof this is ideal. But some things that have been coming from this that do feelmore connected. And so I I am really grateful that you framed it that waybecause I think that, you know, there are some businesses and some leaderswho are having also really great years, right? Like for business some year,some companies, some individuals. This has been some of their better, betteryears and I think, But even in the face of that, that may not have been theexpectation right? You might have an influx of demand or adapting to newmediums, adapting to new team structures, and so this moment ofadapting and the whole world changing around us. I mean, that's marketing inits essence, and then you're probably you're accelerating that so I thinkthat we're a unique group that's probably predisposed to be okay in thisenvironment, and we're accelerating. E think that this covitz specifically inthis moment in time is accelerated. Some things that probably needed tohappen anyways, curious your thoughts that not I would agree with all of that. And,you know, in this business, you you naturally assume that that we're allthe same. In other words, you know, we like the center stage. We liked theattention. We like the stress, you know, We like all of it. If we weren't doingthis, we would be in Fillmore rock stars or whatever. The reality is thatpeople are just people and, you know, whether you're a marketing executive ora sales guru or whatever, it doesn't mean that you're you're always on. And,you know, I think the result of that in this environment has been a lot ofpeople that in the past really crave that kind of excitement. Find it really challenging. Theisolation could be really challenging for those people who really have a highsocial dietary requirement, if you will. That is the best way I've heard thatdescribed social dietary requirement. But it could be equally challenging forpeople, other people, people like me that could turn that extrovert part offand then take a great deal of pleasure in stepping back, doing a lot ofreading, doing a lot of research, spending a lot of time not, you know,in that sort of, you know, place of marketing and really, you know, stayingin touch with who you really are when you're not doing what you dio. And theway I look at this is, you know, we keep talking about how effectiveleaders need to be vulnerable, and I've seen MAWR vulnerability amongmy professional peers than I ever have in the last 20 years to, and I thinkthat is one of the hopefully one of the benefits of all of this is that executives, busy professionals. They'relearning that it's all right to be vulnerable and to share that with with their teams,not just with our significant others and our our kids, but to really openlyshare that with each other. And I think that's you know, I can't say that it'sa benefit of this environment, but it's something that we should reallyappreciate that's happening within this ecosystem, this crazy ecosystem and weneed to keep that going because we'll all be better for that, I think. And asI mentioned before this, this new sharing of ideas is really fantastic. Ireally couldn't agree more on the on both the vulnerability side of us asindividuals and as leaders, teammates, colleagues, etcetera but also on the,you know, the intellectual side and the sharing of ideas and learnings. I thinkthat this has been such an equalizer in so many ways. Rarely do you havesomething where as a society or at a macro level, we experience something inunison. And while I give air quotes, life still is going on right. We stillhave Thio log on and work. We still have Thio. It's not like we cancompletely hit pause on all of these things and um, I think that that hasthat's been a really beautiful piece of it because, right, whether it's cove itor something else, we're all going through something and so, recognizingthat your colleagues, your peers, the people leaders, people you admire arecoming toe every meeting, every zoom call, carrying a little something andallowing them Thio bring that full self,...

I think is pretty powerful. And you hadmentioned that you were eso within the revenue collective community, the RCcommunity. There's a lot of ways in which we can connect with members. Youcan do that through the slack channel. You can do that through events, thepodcast like we're doing here. And you were mentioning that you were havingseveral of the lunch rule. It's it's it's an opportunity for members toconnect and, you know, randomly be paired. And you said that so much ofthe conversation you saw it almost 50 50. It was spending a lot of timetalking about this topic that we are right now. This evolution of theprofessional and what they look like today and what are different peoplegoing through. And then you said there was this other side that was kind oflike work is still there. And there were these recurring themes And so I'mcurious as you were speaking to these folks on the work side. What were someof those things that people are coming, you know, are wondering about and thatyou're thinking about as we begin toe wrap up 2020 and do planning for theupcoming year. Yeah, great question. So So you know, when when we started tosee the the overall slowdown in business, all of us, we're taking astep back and asking, I think the same questions. How can we keep the pipepipeline velocity going? How can we continue Thio close deals to get newcustomers in a very challenging environment? And it was curious to methat, you know, we're all asking the same source of questions. And yet whenyou go out and you look at the real world, what's the first thing thatmarketing teams tend to do under these conditions? They do all of the thingsthat we universally condemn. They just start sending more and more emails.They just they doom or and more ads they're doing. They just double down onthe same stuff, knowing full well that, you know, it's it's what we all telleach other not to do. In other words, don't doom or do smarter. Right andsmarter can take many different forms, you know, it could be a B m, right. Itcould be influencer marketing. It could be a lot of things, but it's just funnythat, you know, we're all saying the same things and you have. The realityis by and large, you know, a lot of companies end up doing that. They justdouble down on the same dumb things they've been doing, right? Why do youthink that is? I mean, I totally like I'm thinking of my past life andthere's moments of stress. Where Shit, How are we going to hit numbers? Andyou do you start doing, like, thes things that you would tell anymarketing one on one like, Don't do that. I I'm curious. Feel that I havesome immediate thoughts come to mind. But I'm curious. Why do you think thatis? As professionals and as marketers, we lean in tow to what we shouldn't. Ithink it's because we don't you know, we don't really take enough time as asa profession as a group within an organization to take a step back andfirst of all, sort of re evaluate everything we're doing. In other words,we have all of this great information, these great ideas, and yet we're stillkind of stuck in the same tracks that we've always used, right? So I'll giveyou an example. We keep talking about, like, buyer personas, and we all knowthat the notion of a buyer persona isn't what we thought it waas 20 yearsago. It's much more sophisticated. It's all about their, you know, their fears,their concerns. The so called buyers journey, if you will. Right? There'snuts, you know, so complex and so unique to each one. But it takes ittakes time. It takes a lot of effort to really invest in that. So why aren't wedoing that right? Why aren't we demanding that from our from theorganizations we work in? How to marketers really? Listen, right? E mean,when is the last time a marketer actually sat in on a sales call or madea customer visit or routinely sits in on services, meetings or support? Inother words, marketers need to get a lot better about really listening. Okay.And I think you know, I had someone ask me a question the other day. Well, howdo you How do you know if you're a good listener? I said because you're nottalking, right? You're just listening. You know thing is in a relationship.It's just listening to relationship work later, right? Yeah, the listeningpart. I think I'm reflecting a bit on the sales and marketing organizations,and I'll spend some time focusing on marketing because I think sales beingso close to the customer does have its...

...its own challenges. But when I'mthinking about marketers, I've rarely seen a marketing organization thatwould say they have enough resource. I think that traditionally inside oforganizations, we index on over index on the product. The thing that we'reselling, which does need to be sound and the individuals of the resource, isthat air meeting with customers. But that middle ground, which drives demand,which has that pipeline velocity often times I find that it is whether it's anactual dollars, whether it is in headcount. It's really challenging, Ithink thio to justify that always, especially if you're doing that withina board or, you know, your senior leadership that maybe a few stepsremoved and this is a theme that's come up quite a bit on the R C. Podcast ismarketing is one of the job functions that is most often oversimplifiedbecause We're all recipients of marketing messages. We see it out inthe world. Whether that's, you know, advertisements or or emails, it'salmost this. We'll just It's just a campaign. But all the thought that goesinto it actually should be much more complex. And it could be the key tounlocking who your customer is. And so I'm wondering, you know, as we'retalking to marketing leaders, that maybe you're saying yes, I do need toslow down. But how do I get my organization to understand that to giveme that beat that that allows me the permission to go do that? I'm curiousif you have any thoughts or tips or tricks. Experience is good or bad, thatof being able to get that will, say, mental margin to do the the brainy workbefore you get into the creating of it. So I think it's really important tounderstand that, you know, for the majority of us and and what we're doing,we're all more or less using the same tool kit, and that tool kit tends tolook like email marketing. It tends to look like a B M. It looks like content,you know, it looks like influence, etcetera, etcetera. So we're all usingthe same tools. They may not have to be the same brands, right, s. So we'reusing Hub Spot, for example. In the past, we were using Terminus and otherother tools. As a result of that, we naturally fallinto this mindset. And I think our executive teams fall into the mindsetof We're using these tools and we're getting various metrics from the tools.And that's what marketing is right. Marketing is like How maney em que ElsYou're getting etcetera, etcetera, these air primarily tool driven metrics.But I think it's important that as marketers, we take the time to frameconversations with the executive team. And I think with everyone in thecompany, quite frankly, that it's more than simply the tools and andthe metrics that those tools are out putting for us to evaluate in some way.Because otherwise we're not being genuine as marketers, and we're notreally fulfilling the potential. I think that marketing provide canprovide for that for that company. But that's a big conversation, right? Ethink so? Kyle Lacy, you know, mentioned recently that you know, like20% of their focus isn't on demand. Gen You know, it's it's everything else,right? And I think it's that everything else that is becoming Mawr importantfor every company. And I think we've seen that because we kept, you know inApril and May, we kept seeing more and more emails, etcetera. We mentionedthis before, and it was it wasn't working, right? Right. It doesn't workthat way. If anything, you can get to the point where it actually becomesdetrimental. Yeah, I mean, anecdotally, I I've beenon an inbox cleanse of un, subscribing to anything that is noise that thatdoesn't immediately. And I found a lot for those brands, businesses that havemaintained in my inbox, its's for a very specific reason, right? And it'sprobably that if you looked at their buyer customer journey, I probably fitreally well within that, versus those that to your point, we're just firingoff a massive amount of messages. There's two concepts that you weretalking about that I wanna highlight for audience. So the first in a pastlife. I worked with Fortune 500 Global 1000 companies on building theirinnovation practices and innovation and marketing. Oftentimes you see severalof the same folks bleed over into that because it's, um, you have thionebulous outcomes. You have thio kind of try things out, test it. There's avery test and learned mindset which...

...often marketers are really well suitedto Dio. And one of the concepts we talked about continuously with ourclients was outcomes over outputs. Outputs become the thing that we allrest in because they there the thing that we can check off. But often ouroutputs are they could be directions that we're doing something they couldbe direction, that we're doing something wrong. But we continue tomeasure it because it makes us feel good, right? In a world where there islittle control, that's the thing that we can count on. But the outcome iswhat is our business goal? And I find that the organizations who do itexceptional align their sales, their product, their technical organizations.They have representatives across all of those that are aligned to outcomes. Andthen there are these peer level conversations cross functional off. Arewe all meeting those? And the accountability comes much more at ateam level to the outcomes rather than by discipline of output. And thoughthat becomes the difference I've seen between really high functioning andadaptable organizations is they don't become, to your point, married to atool or the wrong metric. Just because that's what they said in January, theyshould measure. Wow, I love that. And that analogy between outcomes andsomething else comes to mind, and that is a wellness. So if you're in a healthcare system and you know outcomes and the connotations around that word, um,sometimes we'll focus on wellness. How can how can I keep my patientpopulation healthier? And they use an outcomes based approach? And in someways, that outcomes based approach is similar to keeping the customer ishealthy, right? The market became healthy, etcetera.Yeah, I almost have this. I want, if any of the marketing Martek companieslistening. I want you all to take an approach of telling which customers areactually not good for you. Like how cool would it be if a Martek company,instead of weaken sell to anyone, took this outcomes message and started toreally hone in to say here, the right customers for us, like I wonder whatthat would dio Thio to the marketing community and how they would receivethat just as we're talking here because I don't always see that from even theMartek companies there. You know, just push that we can weaken solve anybody'sproblems. But I think it be really cool to say there these are the outcomes wetackle and hear the companies that are right for us and being bold and turningaway some customers, too. I know that's probably a bit controversial, but I aswe're sitting here talking, I'm like, Oh, I'd be I'd be all in for a companythat would willing to double down on the right kind of philosophy. Oh,absolutely. It's important to know those things. Let's put it that way.Way could spend a whole hour talking about that, right? The second piece, Iwanted to touch on on something you were talking about. I'm curious yourthoughts on this because I think that there are there different schools ofthought. So a few years ago, I read a book. I can't recall the author's nameright now, but the book is called the Machine, and it's a sales and marketingbook around division of labor and making sure that you really you know,you remove. You allow each member of your team to focus on the one thing youneed them to do. Excellent. So, for instance, you may have somebody whollyfocused on content so wholly focused on top of funnel, wholly focused onclosing instead of it being, you know, having a marketing team or marketingindividual sales individual focused on several items that hit home to mepretty hard, because I know that they're just organically asprofessionals and as individuals, things that were really great at and bydoing multiple things at once. Often there's diminishing return, but goingback to my original point getting their resource is to really divide out thatlabor and prove that out can be challenging. But as you were talkingaround, you know that customer journey. I almost wonder what it looks like ifyou had a marketing team that each individual was responsible for a pieceof that and knowing that so well in bringing the best ideas, and I'mcurious if you have any thoughts on that, that holistic team versusdivision of labor and what that looks like Whoa, that's a good question. Wow,that's a tough one. I think, in a larger company, larger marketingdepartment, that division of labor is sort of a natural consequence, and andwe tend to hire again against that. We'll go after someone that's reallygood at producing content or someone that really knows demand. Gen. Etcetera,etcetera. I'm a big fan of cross pollination. In other words, if I canget someone that's really good at demand, Gen. And they want to learnmore about producing stellar content, get them to spend time with the contentteam. And I think overall, having that...

...sort of that sort of environment whereeveryone can learn from each other is overall really beneficial. The realitythink is that this industry in this profession has become so sequesteredbecause it is complicated that it can at times be really difficulty for asmall company, not so much, because, you know, you often hire someone thatthey just they have to do more because there isn't anyone else and those folksAaron, really high demand right now, especially. But I love the idea of surehaving having a division of labor but also creating an environment whereeveryone can learn from each other and sort of like, move around, if you will.Right. Um, I also love the idea of, you know, nurturing people that are in acompletely different role. For example, if you're in str and over time you it'sobvious this person just has a knack with communication, and they have aknack with really great content and can quickly articulate, You know, fairlycomplicated ideas. They need to be a marketing. Yeah, there's there's two pieces inthat that that air really fascinating to me. So the first is that allreference. Another book. It's called Company of One, and it talks about asyou were just talking about that that came from a very strategic team leaderperspective. And so in the book, they talk about a lot of times. People say,Do what you're passionate about, but in the book, they argue that passion comesfrom mastery. When you master something, then you get passionate about, andthat's when you become really powerful, like creating whether it's, you know,well thought of it, a business off of it, etcetera. And as you were justtalking there, I was thinking about as a leader. It's almost that once youbecome a master marketer, you master. You know that that discipline that,then that's when the play starts. That's when you start to observedifferent team members. What is that little skill they have that you couldhone or pour into? And that's when you almost become like the the conductor ofthe orchestra, right? It's as you start to be able to see all the talents cometogether, and that to me, is it took me. It took me a little while ago, movingfrom individual contributor to team leader, and there was that that thepainful part where you were going from somebody who was contributing to nowobserving the team. But when you really begin to take on like that conductorseat and seeing how you could start to play, there's something reallybeautiful within that. And the second piece and I want to hear your thoughtson these with the second piece is I think there's also from a teammanagement perspective, something really powerful about measuring oradding in whether it's okay, ours or some other measurement, you know,mechanism off how people cross pollinate because you could say, Yeah,that's a best practice. But if you actually don't incentivize and helpmeasure that or make it, you know, a celebrated thing within your companyand culture, it becomes very difficult for people to make that a prioritybecause they're balancing all the other priorities. So I think that, you know,as you're setting goals for this upcoming year and if cross pollinationor, you know, exposure to different departments, it's something to maybethink about, of making it a tangible thing. You know, that you're actuallymeasuring that. Not just saying would be a nice tohave. I also think it's ait's a matter of trust. So, you know, we're living through a time when, youknow, I've probably talked with 20 different people since June that theylost their jobs in marketing and it was their first job in marketing.Uh, and that's always terribly, terribly difficult for for youngerpeople, you know, within this profession to suddenly face that kindof a reality that in spite of you know, all of the the kind words and the andthe culture building and everything else that you know, bad things happenBut I think one thing. You, you know, we, as you know executives could do is,you know, do the best we can to establish trust within the organization.And if part of trust really means that we're showing a willingness to helppeople learn other disciplines while they're with us, right, right, you know,and to really, you know, help them share those experiences with othersThat's going to help everyone, especially those individuals that youknow that do leave the company because you know, people, people do leave ontheir own as well. And I hate to see companies that really talk about theirfamily right, because, let's face it,...

...it isn't family, you know, when whenreality hits, you know, you don't feel like a family member. When that happens,right? So it's It's important, I think, use use language that is perhaps moreaccurate and more appropriate. I don't think I don't think businesses shouldappropriate the language, the intimate language of true families and truerelationships. I think that is such a bold statement and you don't often hearit, especially within the marketing world, right? Everybody wants that funculture and they often begin Thio dip into that more to your point intimateside of family. I love what you just said because I actually think it framesthe employer employee relationship in a much one more realistic way, but alsoin a mutually beneficial way to say to, as an employee employer, to say to youremployees, We are We're together for this moment in time. But both of uswill have, you know, lives after we're together, most likely. And so how do wemaximize that time together? How do we pour into you so that you have the bestpossible experience and take that onto whatever you do next and vice versa?How do we extract the most value from you? As you know, a professional, yourexperiences, expertise, etcetera. And I think that it's it's much moreauthentic in my in my view. And I just think I don't think that everybodythinks that way. But as you were saying that I'm like, you know, aggressivelyhead nodding over here like, Yes, I totally concede that. And in the timesthat I've approached team members with, how can we mutually make this the mostbeneficial? How can I make you the best professional you wanna be. I find thatthe trust goes much deeper and those relationships last across our lifetime,not just our tenure of working together and that ultimately I mean, for me,that's what I want. I want to know that I have teammates, whether they're at mycompany or not. But we've brought value to each other across careers. I agree.And that and that. You know, that sense of connectedness, that thoserelationships that you develop within any company, they'll last longer thanthat situation. You know, I still have friends that I worked with over 20years ago in the Bay Area, and we just happened to have worked together, right?But the environment in which we worked it was a good part of that. In otherwords, it allowed people to develop those kinds of relationships. You know,give you another example. You know, I chatted with someone the other day andthey were like, I've applied to over 200 different companies, you know, andthe type of responses they were getting ranged from God awful silence to, youknow, a personal note, right? And I don't understand companies that, youknow, they talk about culture and family and relationships on the onehand. And yet, on the other hand, when it comes to the HR experience, they'renot giving applicants the time of day, you know, even a basic sort of like,thank you for applying and some kind of response and, you know, and then on theother end, what What does it look like? You know, when you're when you'releaving a organization, right? How do you treat people when they leave theorganization? These are the types of things that you know as a marketer.Perhaps I shouldn't care about. But I think is a market. Or perhaps I should.And we all should were more than just a machine. I think marketers can be andare to your point earlier. You know, we're doing farm or than just theobvious, right? If you're doing it right, you're doing farm. Or you mighteven be like the high school counselor, right? Right. And I think that we whatyou said around the candidate experience and the employee experiencein the way that today's consumer is going, they care about all of that.They care about how you treat your people how you treat your communities,how you treat perspective employees just as much as they care about theproducts and services you sell. And we I know again in a past life, weactually worked with a large company and their challenge, their problem.Statement waas How can we make the employee experience as rich as we makethe customer experience? And I thought that was a really meet challenge to saywe focus so much on the external of who's giving us dollars. But we don'tall translate that into the people who are gonna exponentially be responsiblefor our growth by their ideas and their expertise and their experiences. And itwas a fascinating, you know, twist. And I think that if you ask the majority of,you know, HR hiring managers, that's certainly usually it's I'm underwaterand oh, shit, I just need another body...

...in here. It's not often thatthoughtfulness that you go out and really build a campaign around and havethe closed the loop, etcetera on guy. I'd be interested to hear from ourcommunity if you're listening. Anybody that has concepts on this or content onthis because to your point I think that your your friends experience of those200 companies from Silence Toe really personal notes is probably indicativeof what we're seeing across different size of companies, industries, etcetera.Yeah, absolutely. I was chatting with someone else the other day about aboutforecasting on and, you know, they like many companies, they sort of reverseengineer that they're forecasting mechanism. In other words, if we needto hit this revenue number and or this, you know, number of new customers orwhatever, these are the things we need to dio and they're doing all thosethings and they're not hitting their numbers. So they decide. Well, we'lljust amp up. We'll just send out more, even more. Exactly. We'll do all ofthis, all of the other things that we normally dio. And once again, I thinkthat's a great opportunity for marketing executives to take a stepback as they're going into the new year. To really start thinking about someother things, right? And like I had a list here, I put somewhere like, forexample, for us. I mean, partnerships have become absolutely critical and,you know, partnerships are they're hard. They take a lot of work. It takes awhile to a great book to actually buy one of our members, Matt Bright. It'scalled the Partnership Principle, and it talks exactly about that. That thatis a very bespoke practice of developing partnerships and the samepeople who are your you know, your SDRs or BDR s. Those air, maybe not the samepeople that are your partnership leads, but the sale cycle might be longer, butthe value could also be exponential. So I think that, you know, for any of ouraudience, if that isn't something, considering how you might pilot that orbegin to test the viability of it could be pretty paramount for this upcomingyear. And I think that that's a savvy, you know, you're you're potentiallyincreasing your platform because you have to companies doing that in concertversus you, just shouting into the ether louder and more frequently,absolutely way all talk about Omni channels where the Omni Channelexperience. And yet how many companies do you know that really do direct mailReally? Well, yeah, it's sort of Z as if direct mail or, you know, coolpackages through the mail or even billboards became so old fashioned. Andyet companies that are using direct mail effectively are knocking it out ofthe park. They're getting really creative there, you know. It'scompletely plugged in and integrated to part of an overall experience. They'recommunicating with their current customers. They're finding newopportunities. They're up selling. They have great referral programs. All ofthe things that everyone thinks is sort of like on the periphery of the normal9 to 5. You know that marketing does. I mean, this is the time to really take astep back and fold those into the batter. Start experimenting. If you'rea larger company, create a SWAT team where I have two or three people andtheir job is just to go do some outlandish stuff. Yeah, and I thinkthat going back to our point earlier in that team, I think that it's one of thechallenges I've seen him working with large organizations is they Anexecutive gets super excited about it, well, put together this team and thenmove on to the next shiny thing or will be, you know, leave the organization,and then these individuals are sitting there saying crap, Who's our executivesponsor. And so I think for anybody that you know is maybe building a SWATteam or is like listening to say, Hey, that could be really cool Realize thatyou have to go wider in the organization and you have to align yourefforts to outcomes and the frequency of communication up and out needs to bepretty high at the onset and making sure that you're you're bringinglearnings as your currency because I think that often times the SWAT teamwants to go away and they can fall victim to this and we'll wait till it'sperfect. We're working on something big, and the truth is, is that you have tobuild those quick wins and momentum going to your point earlier, Martyaround trust just like you would with an employee. You have to start to buildtrust with any new things set forth, and so I think that slowing down to ourpoint earlier. If you are establishing any new efforts, any new teamcapability, it's just say let's hit a pause. Let's set, you know, what arethe measurements that we want to set forth not just the outputs but theoutcomes and How will we know that we're on the right track? And I thinkthat it's it sounds so simple. Like, I think anybody listening would be like,Yeah, of course. And then you'd say,...

Have you done it? And they'd say, Well,no. So I just go back to basics, right? Absolutely. Another thing that wereally don't take enough time to step back and and reevaluate I think on aregular basis is the technologies were using. So, you know, once we get sortof the Big Three, you know, marketing, automation, etcetera, etcetera. We justtend to kind of step back and and forget about it, you know, untilrenewal time or whatever. But I would also recommend that, especially forlarger organizations, that they have an ongoing and regular technology review because there's so many marketing andancillary marketing technologies out there that folks are using, and youcould get an immense amount of intel from how they're being used and howeffective they are. And once again, I mean, the revenue collective communityis really great about that. I mean, I can you can get so much great input andfeedback about the technologies out there to make really smart decisionsvery, very quickly. I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the biggestIf I had to articulate. The biggest benefit is that the Access Thioexperience and expertise that you may have a deficit in and getting thatquickly and just validating the you know, the input in that this membergroup I have found to be one of the most participative that that I've seenin any community them a part of. The one thing I would also add for yourtech review comment is I think there's a lot of power in communicating withyour technical partners one your outcomes and strategy, how you will bemeasured by success and how you will measure them and also being proactivein telling them what a review cycle looks like. Because I find that Ah, lotof times there is Ah, there is this. I think any time you're in a serviceindustry, you're you run victim to this, but your client will say, Here, just godo your thing and we're Yes, we're measuring this our our success overhere, and there's this gap between they either expect that you know that orthat you know, you communicate if something is awry. And so anypartnerships that you bring on, I would say Bring them on with the mindset thatyou want them to be a successful as one of your employees. And if you cannotdedicate that time or mental share or mindshare, you know, mental capacity,maybe assess it. Is that the right partner to bring on or the right timeto bring them on? Because I find that and this is, you know, lived experiencefor myself. I would bring on partners expecting them to fix problems. But Iwouldn't spend the appropriate time on boarding or investing in that. And thenat the end, the relationship wasn't successful and I was out the money thatI had spent them with them. And so I recognize that in order to do thateffectively, I had to communicate that at the onset and be willing toe budgetthe time as well as the dollars. Yeah, that's a great point, because so Ifound that with one technology marketing technology provider inparticular, I don't know if I could mention their name or not, but thesupport I got from them hmm was fantastic. And, you know, this was akind of a heavy touch technology A a B M based technology. And, you know,ramping up into something like a B M isn't easy, and it it touches upon somany different things. So you need you need a partner that can kind of helpyou through, help you through the process, help you to learn from Youknow what is working, what isn't and kind of validate the results you'regetting and things of that nature. And it's really critical that whatevertechnology mix you have, you know, be sure you're getting the kind of supportyou need that could make all the difference in the world. I couldn'tagree more. And I'm going back to our point earlier around the division ofLabor, I think there's something really powerful with tasking one member ofyour team to have an eye on that or be assessing that. And I know we did that.My my last organization and I found that what we began to get out of ourpartners went up exponentially. When you have a single person that wasmeasuring that as a part of their role versus it being a shared responsibilityand people attending meetings but not really tuning in. And e mean we're allvictim to it and not by any male intent. But just sometimes that's the nature ofthe beast. So I'm curious based on on some of your conversations. Are thereany other closing thoughts or trends that you've observed? As as people aresaying, you know, I'm looking forward at at what's next, and a couple of themthat we've captured are spending time to listen and recognizing thatmarketing, you don't just have to measure output, you can measure outcome.And so taking that beat and recognizing your roll and impact in theorganization's powerful we talked about...

...sometimes going back to the basics andrecognizing that Mawr and Mawr often is not always the best answer. It's oftenthe wrong answer, and so be making sure that we're working smarter. What elsehas been coming to mind for you? And this is I'm enjoying this riff so muchI feel like this is just catching up with an old friend, and I'm over herelike taking notes. Yeah, Oh my gosh, I mean, there's just so many other Youknow, I have a big list of things, but I would also say that we're all veryanxious about 2021 you know, There, you know, the talk of, you know, severalvaccines that will be available, you know, And we're all, you know, kind ofassuming and or hoping that, you know, we could kind of rapidly get back towhatever it looked like before, and and that's, you know, we all wantthat, obviously, but we've also seen that you know, a lot of businesses nowunderstand that they can. They can run much more efficiently by reducing theirphysical presence that people can work remotely. They can be Justus productive.So it could be this kind of mixed this hybrid approach. I might go into theoffice once a week so I could do the things that I need to do that requirethat you know that that physical presence and I could get my social fixright. But then the other three or four days, I can work remotely, because nowwe've proven that people can do it and business gets done. Justus. Well, sowhen people talk about the new normal, you know I would encourage you know,the R R C community to be thinking about the new normal in those terms. So I love that. What a good reframewe're now sort of like, You know, it's sort of like validated what? I thoughtone of the big promises of the Internet age was supposed to be all about thefact that, you know, sure, we don't have flying cars yet. But, you know,now we can work from home occasionally. Now we can reframe the way we do workand what what it looks like. And the result of that, I think, will be that,you know? Sure, you know, we'll go back to that normal. But it's a differentnormal now, and it will be a different normal. So how do we as marketers lookat that? What? What does that mean for us, Right? Do we need to change the way we'redoing things, you know? Is it more video? Well, that that's really asimple, you know, response to the whole thing. You know, more video. Whatever,right? It's much more than that. But I think, you know, take a step back andthink about that now. that you know, we have a workforce that can that will bechanged permanently. I think in the, you know, in 2021 moving forward. Sowhat are the challenges and opportunities that you know thatprovides for us? Not only as as marketers, but you know, but alsoJustus people, right? What do we want that toe look like, Right. Let's use itto our advantage as well as as people Justus normal people. I think that's such a fascinating point.And you know, a lot of times I think that as marketers we are we'reobservers and reactors to the world around us. We are are trying thio infor what's happening, and I would encourage you know, those of you thatthat can find the mental margin and have the space to do this is maybe beproactive and what some of those assumptions or hypotheses are. That maybe wrong. But being proactive in developing some test and learnapproaches to how you might do that. And some examples might be that, youknow, from a resource ing perspective, we don't have a full team. We mighthave a core team of strategist, but we use fractional team members for certainexpertise. We may, to your point, rely on different ways of working likepartnerships versus just traditional sales. And so I would invite, you know,as you're over the next several weeks, especially for our C members engagewith with each other. Have these conversations. I have found that one ofthe most the best ways for me to get that mental margin is not to sit downand get out my pen and paper and say, OK, today I'm thinking it is to startwith these conversations and just seeing the mind map that comes out andwhat directions it goes. I mean, even this conversation we've we've coveredpersonal, we've covered professional, we've covered tools, we've covered teamleadership. And it's My hope is that we see these little sparks of inspiration,and then you go get your new book. Then you go get your pen and say, How doesthis apply to my world? So whether it's the lunch roulette or the, you know,listening to podcast like this or other...

...meetings, it's engaging in that andseeing how we might spur this curiosity and creativity amongst each other. Toeto inform what you're doing in the next year. Marty, this has been fun. Thank you forthe time today, Casey, you made my day. This has been great. It's really hasbeen a blast. I'm I'm looking. We're recording in the Thanksgiving week andI'm looking forward Thio taking a beat and enjoying that. But I'm also reallylooking forward Thio 2021 being able to get our eyes on that and hopefully somenew energy for us all. We'll have a great holiday drink. The good wine.This this thing coming today I'm not even waiting for Thursday. It'll beMonday night tonight. We're getting down with a good wine. So good for you.Yeah, You too. You too. Alright, Well, Marty Thompson, Thank you for being aguest on the show today. This is the revenue collective podcast whererevenue leaders come together to talk about the rial challenges and triumphsof being in this crazy world of sales and marketing. My name is Casey. LikeGordon, I'm your host and we'll see you next time. Thank you, Marty. And thankyou for everyone tuning in today. This is the revenue collective podcast. Andit is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern saleZorg you want to see with the number one sales engagement platform can dofor your business? Simply head on over to www dot outreach dot io to learnmore. We'll see you next time.

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