The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 63: The Importance of Internal and External Marketing w/ James Gilbert

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 63: The Importance of Internal and External Marketing w/ James Gilbert

Part of the TGIM! (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

...all right, T g. I am. Thank God it's Monday. Welcome back to the revenue collective podcast, where we help revenue leaders up level their skill set and help them get the career that they want. I'm your host, Tom Alamo, excited for today's episode, and before we get to some great content, I do want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Quote a path, the commission tracking software built for sales, operations, finance and accounting teams. If running commissions and payroll has you running for the hills, quota path is for you. Quote A path helps organizations track and manage commissions and pay their teams accurately and on time every time. Keep your team motivated and on target. Simplify your commissions at quota path dot com slash revenue. Dash collective and give your reps the gift of transparency. Okay, for today's episode, I'm talking. My friend James Gilbert James has 17 years and marketing. He's a thought leader. He's a podcast host. He's a contributor to Forbes. He's an author. He's a lot of things. He's also the head of marketing at CRM next, and James is so knowledgeable and I'm grateful that he was able to share a lot of that knowledge that he has, uh, in marketing on the come up of that, how he went from kind of like a Data Analytics person, which is not a typical path to get to be a CMO. So how he took that path, the communication that he's doing through podcasts and writing and a big thing that I learned about was internal marketing. I love talking about that. How much of the job of of a leader marketing leaders really about internal marketing versus just external and building a brand? So I loved having James on the show. One quick note before we get into it. If you find value, would love if you head over to Apple, subscribe and left a five star review. That's what helps us pray. Great content, get guests and keep these episodes pumping out for you. So, without further ado, let's get straight into my conversation with James Gilbert. It all right? James Gilbert, head of marketing at CRM. Next. Welcome to the revenue collective podcast. How you doing today? Doing good. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Are you, um I always like to ask where in the world the guests are because you never quite know from LinkedIn in in a covid world, Are you in Utah or you elsewhere? Right now? I am born and raised here, but did move away for a little while, lived in Georgia for a little while, moved back. So back in Utah can't get enough of it. That's one of those places that, uh, in a weird way Boston, where I'm from is feel similarly. But I feel like people from Utah people from Boston, if they're born there, they end up coming back there or never leaving. It's just one of those places that has. I feel a really strong hold of people from a community perspective versus maybe other places like California, where it's more of a hodgepodge. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because there's a lot of people that know about the skiing part of Utah, which is the northern side. But a lot of people don't know about the southern side of Utah, which is your red rock, and you're like four hours from eight different national parks. You know you have your you have Moab Arches, National Park, Zions national park, even the Grand Canyon. I mean, you have so much stuff in the southern side of the state that people just never even know about. So that's one of the things I love about it Just super unique Southern sides, more like California weather. And the northern side is more like real Utah weather. You're going to get snow. You're gonna get rain. You're gonna get the four seasons. Yeah, I love that. I love that sometimes I missed the four seasons, you know, living in the Bay area. It's just so you know, kind of one level all year round. That's okay, though. You guys get weather most of the year, so yeah, totally. So before we get into the...

...nitty gritty here on marketing, I'm personally, I'm a big quote fanatic, and I see kind of like 60% of a quote behind your head, So I'd love if you could you could you share what that is? Sure, it's the most important work that you're ever going to do is within your own home. And I I stand by that 100% because I think that that is ultimately how we build future leaders that is ultimately how we make change. And that is ultimately how we really have an impact on the world is with the Children that were raising and with the people that were around the most. And I imagine that, like I've heard and I'm not, I'm not a parent. Uh, I'll use that as a disclosure, but a lot of the listeners are, I imagine, like leadership and running a team. And helping to run a company is not that different from running a householder, leading a household or working with your kids and your partner and things like that, right? I mean, there's got to be a lot of parallels, you know, there are some for sure, but there's also a lot of non parallels, you know, like your you don't always raising kids like you don't always have the experience necessarily that you're going to run into as leaders where you have, you know, strong individuals and willpower and all those other things that really play a role into who people really are. But ultimately, I think the boils down to just treating people like they're human, and as long as you do that, I think that it translates pretty well, but not everybody. For the record, like even if you aren't raising kids or even if you were raising kids, not everybody has the same mentality around how to do that. So I think that it brings a unique perspective for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's great. And so to kind of get into it, you know, something that is is really clear to me. As you know, I was doing some research on you and and it's particularly on LinkedIn is just seeing how involved you are in the community, right in the marketing and sales and overall revenue community. And you know something that you can put in your bio right? It's like I just want to help people. I want to give value that I wish I would have been given in my career, inspire impact, lives and give without asking and being human. I'd love for you to just talk about that, and you know where you learn some of those lessons because I think it's so valuable for anyone at any point in their career, but especially early in their career, like yours truly, or like maybe some of the folks listening to take that advice and use that to build up their career and build the career of others around them. You know, I've been fortunate enough to have a really good path to get to where I'm at, and I'm still pretty young to be here. And I think one of the reasons why I've been fortunate enough to be there is I've put myself in situations and I've had leaders that have put me in situations where they've gotten totally out of the way, and I think that's telling. I've also had leaders that have done the complete opposite, and I think that, you know, as growing individuals and growing professionals, you know, I even have this on my team where you know we have one on ones with specific people on the team, and they identify an area that they want to grow into. But they don't know how to get there, and it's never talked about them a couple of times that I've been to CMO and one of the questions that never gets asked with people. Surprisingly enough, you might hire somebody for writing or for digital marketing or for demand. Shin or maybe an A B M person. Or maybe it's the cells rap, but it's so interesting to me how often they aren't doing what they actually truly are passionate about. So any time that I've ever led a team that surprises them, But I come in and ask that question, you know, what are you really passionate about? And I want them to be totally honest with me. And there's been moments where I've had to help develop somebody who was a developer into a designer, and they...

...became one of the best designers that I've ever known. Because of that, right, people that have written content or now is what they've done. Their whole lives turn into professional video editors. And I think that what I wish would have been done with me in my career is that people have taken more time to actually care and really helped develop, not just like for the selfish reasons that you have to as leader, which is trying to get members and all that other stuff. I think too often leaders get stuck behind their their their own pride and being seen as weak or being seen as like, well I don't have all the answers, so that's kind of the approach that I like to take with. It is I don't have all the answers and I promote that like, I genuinely want to learn from everybody because there's not one right way to do things, do anything. And things change too often for you to not focus on learning from everybody, any chance you get, So I think that's where it comes from. I had a lot of leaders to that took credit for things that I did and I didn't like that. And I think that it's a very common thing, even moments where everybody that they were taking credit for knew that it was coming from me. And those are things that I just try to put my team in, the best situation to where they don't have to deal with the same problems that I dealt with. But that doesn't mean that I don't have my own set of problems that they're dealing with with me too. You know what I mean. So it's a healthy balance. Yeah, it's so interesting that you bring up that point of asking people you know what? They're passionate about or what they want to be or where they want to take things. I'm reading the book. Uh, so good. They can't ignore you right now. Have you read that? I haven't. That's when I'm gonna go down. Okay? Yeah. No, it's good. It's good. My my boss recommended to me, and, uh um, I can't vouch for it completely yet. I'm not through it, but, you know, part of what they talk about is is kind of this, like craftsman mindset, right? Where Part of the reason why or at least his theory in this book is You know, part of the reason why people do love their jobs is because you can get really good at it. You know, that helps you enjoy it more if you start to really enjoy the process and things like that. And so I think your question off the bat of trying to figure out Well, what does this person What are they naturally interested in? You can kind of push them towards the areas of that job that fit that. Like, if you are really into, if I can speak from a salesperson If you're really extroverted, then Hey, maybe you're gonna really like the meetings and even the cold calls and cold emails part if if you're, you know, more introverted, you might like more of the negotiation and the problem solving the account, mapping things like that. And so trying to map what you're interested in and what you're really good at as part of the job processes is something that he makes the point of in this book that I find to be interesting. Yeah, I really like that. I mean, the thing is like, everybody is unique, you know? And sometimes they get put into a path because that's the path of least resistance for them and always has been. So they just get complacent and used to it. And I think when you take the approach of asking that question, it might surprise you like I've had marketers change to sales and sales change to marketing, and I think that you've got to allow people to choose their path, and I think too often we try to pick it for them, and then we try to guide them in that path, and then they feel stuck. But they don't ever express that because they don't they're either in a culture that doesn't allow that or they just Yeah, I think a lot of people are scared to talk to leaders and tell them. Hey, I know you brought me on for this, but I hate it. You know, how do you have that conversation? But if you have an open environment where you know they can...

...explore possibilities, then it changes things. And I think that we have to do a better job as leaders to create that type of environment for them. And it also benefits you, I imagine right, because if you're someone on your team has this interest in in something that maybe you're not privy to or you're not good at or you don't even you don't even have eyes on it. And now all of a sudden, it could be a whole new channel for your marketing organization or the company as a whole if it if it's something completely new. But let's say someone had a really big passion in, you know, like I know that you're into podcasting as well. But let's say you weren't and I open your eyes to how powerful podcasting could be or blogging or you tubing or something else that you know your team wasn't focused on, It could actually have a whole new dimension to things that you had a blind spot in. Absolutely, I can tell you, like we've created this environment at CRM next with my team and you'll see stuff from our team that just blows people away. And that's because they have total autonomy and freedom to be able to be creative, execute on it, own it, the whole nine, and they get all the credit for it. Unfortunately, people talk to me about it, but I always say like it's the team that's doing that stuff and it's so true. But you've got to create that type of environment because I know like earlier on in my career, I had a unique path to where I'm at. I'm a rare CMO in the sense that I was surrounded by data. I was surrounded by doing marketing operations and I wasn't the greatest communicator. I wasn't a good writer and I wasn't really good at brand. Those three things are three of the core areas that most CMO was land a job right? That was not me in any way, shape or form. But over the last couple of years, being in a role like this, you know, I've tried to hone my craft a little bit, you know, and become a better writer and write more publications, you know, right chapters in a book that that was recently done this last year. And but I still that's not that's not a strong suit of mine. So why would I try and do something that isn't that what I would call somewhat of a weakness right when I can bring people on that are much better at it and get out of the way? I think that's the important part is you've really got to get out of the way as a leader and recognize that you don't need to be the final saying everything. That's silly music. You make a great point, like for the for the folks that are in, you know, maybe a marketing operations or rev ops type of role right now that do have aspirations to get to a CMO level or c r o level right? And, you know, usually to your point, that's kind of reserved, oftentimes, for people that you know CMOs for people that know how to build the brand. You know, the C R. O might be the VP of sales, who was formerly the best salesperson. So you came at it from kind of this different angle of, you know, really knowing the data behind things. And then maybe, you know, worked on your craft of communication. Could you walk me through like that process on on how the operations piece actually helped you, you know, land the role that actually helps you succeed in the role. I think one of the things that I learned earlier on was how much data can impact the rest of the organization. And I think that when you try to get to the point where you're trying to land a CMO role or head of marketing or even a VP of marketing role, I think that you that often times people get tunnel vision with that role and they think that they have to be experts in everything marketing. And I think what they what they may be lack is about the ability to think more broad across the organization. So when I started leading some of the data strategies at some of the companies that I've been at, It allowed me the ability to speak to things that you know, those that were really good at brand. They could speak to brand, but it would be more of like a gut feel like this is how I think we should do...

...it. I would come in and I'd be like, Well, this is what the data is telling us. This is what the market market research is telling us. This is what actual customers are telling us, and I would bring in this conglomerate of data. I would summarize it really nicely so that they had one view and executives will be blown away by it. So I could I could literally no pun intended. But I could own the room just because of that. And like there, there's truth to the saying that those who own the data on the room and own the dialogue because that's ultimately the Holy Grail, like when you when you have data that spans across an organization and you can speak to sometimes their own function better than they can, because you have an insight into things that they don't have because they don't dive in the weeds. That's pretty powerful. And I think that's also how more CMOs and VPs our marketing can get seats at the table on their board as well is you really have to start understanding the financials. You have to start understanding, like the strategy behind those functions that are outside or just marketing. And I think that's somewhat unique. I love that, and I want to talk a little bit about culture. I saw you put a post out this week that that's been top of mind for you. You know, there's the, you know, the fairly famous quote from Peter Drucker. That culture eats strategy for breakfast. I'd love to hear you talk about that because, you know, from someone that is very obviously not a CMO or CEO or see anything like myself. I'd love to hear how you work with the CEO to help build out that culture right, because there's kind of two prongs of culture that I see. One is externally to your customers, to prospective employees, to your partners, et cetera, and then the internal that your current employees have of what that culture is and making sure they feel safe and included and welcomed and all of those things. So I'd love to hear you talk about both of those prongs and how you work to build that. Well, I will say that I'm not an expert in this in any way, shape or form, like I'm still learning so much. So what I'm about to say, like take with the great assault. But you know, in my experience, it's much tougher to communicate internally and to get adoption of culture than it is to do it externally. I'll give you an example. When a lot of this stuff was happening in 2020 and there was a lot of riots that were going on and all sorts of stuff, you saw a huge companies talk the talk right on their LinkedIn and their social. All that crap like good on you, good job doing an external communication. But how many of those companies were actually living what they were preaching? That's a whole different ball game, and I think that it's a lot tougher and to be honest with that, there's not enough conversations that are happening with leaders even about this, because it's they're so scared of it. They're scared of doing it wrong and being perceived in in the wrong light. And I think we have to start talking about it more openly and realize that not everybody has all the answers. They're just There's not a playbook for internal communication around culture. There's just not because every organization is too unique to do that. So one of the things that we've done is I've worked with are our executive leadership team Now. When I got here, we didn't really have a culture. Nothing was documented. So I've had to build a lot of us from scratch with the leaders that are that we have at the company today. And we've had a lot of challenges with it and some things that we've had to address as a company that if we communicated that externally, it would. What's the point right culture? The reason why that quote is so relevant is because culture really does drive everything that we do. When you look at how things are perceived in the marketplace, it's...

...got to be genuine, so one of the things that we've built in our culture is when we reach out to people that we sell to. We don't do it in a really sells the way, and that's an eight and part of our culture, and we hear that in the marketplace. So, like, you know, we leverage Ganga. Ton Gong is by far my favorite technology that I have on our tech stack, and that's speaking from a marketing point of view, not for myself. Point of view. And we try to make the internal communication more important than the external. Like If I don't do any external communication around what we're doing with our culture, so be it. If I don't do any external communication regarding D, I, so be it. All I care about is that the people that we have at the company feel that we are doing the right thing because if they feel that way they will help communicate it. They'll be advocates. I think Gang has done a really good job of this. Everybody had gone loves working there. You can see that the culture is just present right, and it is communicated across almost all channels. When you talk to anybody at Gong right, and I think that that is, that's something that we can learn. That's something that we can try to implement. And I think that God has done it so well that we're all striving to get to get to that Holy Grail. I guess you could say and I think it's there, it's in front of us and we just have to make the right steps. But I think one of the ways that we got to do that is people first before anything else. Let's, uh, you know, just put it on the table. I did not pay James to say any of those kind words about God. Uh oh, They are appreciated. Um, I'm curious. There's a few things I want to dive into. That on the first is if I just go in chronological order. You mentioned the sales team you're known in The industry is having more of a casual sales approach. Could you elaborate on that? Like what? Is Is it the verbiage? Which is it? People are wearing T shirts on zoom calls. Is it how you're going about negotiations? Like, walk me through that a little bit? I'm curious not to give away too much of our secret sauce, but yeah, only what you're only what you can, you know. We serve a market that is unique, and when I say it's unique, it really is. If you've ever worked with credit unions, you'll know that it's very unique. I mean, there's so many of these folks that aren't aren't they don't communicate via LinkedIn. They have their own little communities and, you know, communities like see you insight and kuna. So one of the main value adds that we found when we were doing our podcast and when we were talking to customers and potential customers was they really need to see that you care about. So we took that to heart every single time we would talk to somebody. We would try to add value to the conversation. There was times where they were talking about one of our competitors and even talking about using us for marketing automation. And I get brought into that conversation and we would be totally real. With them, we'd say, Look, we are not a marketing automation platform. It's actually a better for you if you think about your tech stack by marketing automation platform to do some of those things alongside what we do because That's the That's the benefit. And people were blown away by this approach, like wow, like a vendors coming in and telling us that, you know, they're thinking about using them for the wrong thing. And we we meant it. And we keep we keep meaning it. So we bring. We bring a lot of value without asking. I think that's the key. Sometimes you have to bring value without asking for something in return. And that's an unheard of thing. And a lot of cells, cells, organizations. And the the other piece that you're mentioning in that, you know, kind of talk about culture was the emphasis, the great emphasis that you place on the internal communication. What forms of you know, what mediums do you use is that you're setting up a lot...

...of like internal webinars. Is it? Well, weekly email from the marketing team is it you know, a certain slack channel. I know that's maybe more of a tactical question, but maybe something that people could actually take to their companies, you know, again without giving too much away of your secret sauce over there. But we do a couple of things. One we hold everybody accountable to our cultural pillars. So in your performance reviews, we wait culture a lot higher than we do. You like individual performance against tactics and numbers, and we do that by design because we want people to take it as seriously as we try to take it as a leadership team. Are there improvements we can make 100% but we use communication channels kind of like a slack, please. Teams. We also do what we call quarterly awards where every quarter we recognize three individuals within the U. S side of the business that are living those cultural values really, really well. And they have to be voted on by the leadership team voted on by other leaders within the company. And we need to see that they've done those things that cross team collaboration, those kinds of things. And we do those quarterly awards and it pumps people up because we we monetize that for them specifically, and we try to build, you know, we you hear in the marketplace a lot people talking about community well, to build a community. I think internally first, and I think that's the key to a lot of this, and that's what we try to do is we're trying to build a little community internally first, where people are recognized for the great work they're doing there, recognized for not being super cells e and being real with people. And if somebody says, Hey, look like we have a But we have a budget meeting in a month and a half, let's keep a dialogue, but we're not ready to make a decision. Don't push a decision when they have a month and a half before they can even talk about budget like it's really just being human to people. And I think gets really lost in all of the stuff that we do from a marketing perspective, all the stuff we do from a sales perspective, it's really just being human to people. And I can tell you firsthand when I have vendors come to me and they say, Hey, James, this is only good. This deal is only good for another week because that's our end of quarter, so I can only pull strings and I have to go talk to my VP about pulling these strings. Do you have any idea how that sounds? That is just the most pathetic methods of selling I have ever heard of. And by the way it happens with everybody. You all do it and it's silly, like if you can't give me a deal because of the fact that I can't sign in two weeks on your timeline, I'm not going to do a deal with you like that's The other thing is, I think that you have to identify value, add that not just it's not just to sell, but how they're going to help you. One of the things that we we pitch to everybody is we want to be a partner. We don't want to be a vendor. We don't want to be. You know, you're next. You're not our next cell, you're a partner, so we're going to help grow with you, just like we would want you to help us grow. And I think that that's something that people could take away is trying to do that in your sales process. I mean, remember, I've done cells before, so this isn't something that I'm coming out of the blue with. I even got like a side bachelor's degree and professional cells. Yes, they do exist, and I think that's one of the things that I learned a lot. Even doing that is you just got to be human in the whole situation, and I have to call out the thing that you mentioned a minute ago about the internal awards. Coincidentally, we we do that at dawn...

...and that it's something that really resonated with me during our our company kick off. We have these eight values operating principles that we go by and and a lot of companies, and this is not an ad for going. It's just maybe, you know, food for thought. For a lot of, uh, you know, marketing teams out there internally is like a lot of companies have values and they put it on the wall and, like, have empathy or, you know, customer always comes first and then you know, people don't act that way. People were getting awards specifically tied to those operating values, and people were in tears when they got the award like it meant so much to some people that they got those awards and, um, you know, I felt so just invigorated to just be at that meeting and watching that happen. And so I think if you do it right and you really are living by the values of the principles or whatever you're using for your company internally, you can't really build that internal community. I love that concept of the internal community, James. I mean, look, we have a long ways to go before I think people are in tears, like gone. But, hey, you know what we're I think the other thing that you can that you can do is marketers specifically be a sales rep. Like enough of the bullshit. Stop sending content over to them. Stop sending alerts over to them. Be a sales rep. See what it's like. See what it's like getting the content library that you send them and trying to translate that into a conversation, see what it's like and that can also help internally communicate the culture so that it's lived because I think that's a that's another big missing pieces. You know, marketers talk about a lot about this and to be to be tech world, they say all the time like, Oh, yeah, well, you know, it sells as one of your customers. You have to think through their eyes, but they never get in the weeds and actually do the work. I think that's telling. That's one of the things that I did right out of the gates. Coming here is I went in and sold a couple of deals and I got to see firsthand everything that we were doing from a marketing perspective that was translating and wasn't falling completely flat. And there were things that I identified that I was like, Man, I really thought we were on point with that and we were way off. So if you want to know why, sometimes cells and marketing don't align. Put yourself in their shoes and vice versa. Half cells get get a feel for what it's like, like in the life of a market or two, and I think that can help both sides. That's great advice. I know we're getting, you know, somewhat close on time. I've got a few more questions for you. One is just around, you know, podcast. And if I may get, you know, a little macro for a second talking about podcasts on a podcast, I'd love to hear when you have the podcast for CRM next, like first talk about it a little bit. And what you're what you're talking about? But also is that a Is that a lead driver? Is that an awareness driver? Is that, you know, strategically having customers on is that you know, what is the what is the intent behind it for the, you know, the business case there? Yeah, that's a great question. Our podcast is so important to everything that we're doing. For the record, if you want to listen to it, it's called banking on experience. You can find it anywhere. And you know, what we're trying to do with the podcast is again build community. It's build relationships with banks and credit unions. It's build awareness for everybody and the U. S. Who needs it? For the record, everybody in the U. S. Needs financial education. This is no secret because we've been able to identify that as one of the main topics that has talked about more than any other thing across almost all financial institutions is they want to be seen as an as an adviser for financial education, and they're trying to figure out how to do it. So I think that we've created a podcast that allows people to do that. We bring guests on that are specific to credit unions, specific to banks, even some vendors that help solve some of...

...the problems that they're having. And then we also have gone on all of those podcasts. Here's a little bit of a unique thing we use gone as market research. So here's a fun little tidbit for you. I've probably gathered more market research than Gartner and Forrester when it comes to credit unions in one year than they have. And that's simply because my audience with the podcast is so broad against our specific nish that I can provide better insights than sometimes they can. And that's telling. It changes our strategy. It changes the market value that we bring. And I know Forrester and Gartner are going to have a heyday about this. But whatever. It's the truth, though, and then and then I'm getting insights directly from people in the industry, helps us change our content. Strategy helps change so much, so we use it as a primary driver for strategy around what we build in our content, what we build in our webinars, what's relevant, that we're going to be doing for campaigns. The messaging that our sales team uses, it drives all of that. It's genius. I think, um, you know, I'm obviously biased. I'm long on podcasts and think that every company should have one and be able to tailor it. You know, just as you're talking about it, for whatever their particular niches, and to gain research about your prospects and customers to help give your customers a platform to help learn how to serve them, better learn their challenges, whatever it might be. There's so much good that can come of that. And I think that should absolutely be someone on someone's strategy board for 2021. I'm curious, since we're on the revenue collective podcast. You remember. I'd love to hear you talk just for a minute or two about how you leverage the community and you're someone that is really active writing and podcasting, as we're saying. And there's so many ways to leverage a community like revenue collective. Whether it's one on one connects if it's slack. If it's the webinars that they have, it's the playbooks, all that different stuff. So I'm just curious, like for you personally how you leverage it to your advantage for your career. I think one of the ways I leverage it is I really value peer to peer interaction. I really value learning from peers that are, you know, in a similar position as I am, because you just don't get that through LinkedIn like you have people post stuff all the time, and it's great and the trends, but you don't get like real dialogue. And one of the things that I really love and I think revenue collective has done this really well is they've given, like a niche for CMOs to get on like a weekly talk and bi weekly talk. And there's a topic and you're on there with your peers and you're talking about those subjects. And to be honest with you, like there's there's some people that would kill for the insides of that stuff. Like there was one that we were on this the other day last week, and we were all talking about the big analyst offenders that you you got to work with, you know, here we are. A bunch of CMO is talking about how much of a paint it is and how, if we had a choice none of us would work with. Do you think Forrester Gartner know that? No. They think we're bringing all this value. But in that conversation with a bunch of other CMOS peer to peer, none of us wanted to work with them. I mean, their way around them. Yeah, well, they're I don't know. That's a different topic. But I mean, that's a good example of how there's so much value in and also just getting validation a little bit and what you're doing or if what you're doing is way off way off base. I think sometimes when you're in those nish groups and you can share some of the ideas that...

...you have, it's worthwhile knowing that other people find it valuable to. So I really enjoyed that part. Yeah, I mean, that's great. And, um, maybe we have to take it off line to, uh, you know, we won't We won't bash any of the other analyst firms or anything about that. But but to your point, just trying to find, you know, like minded folks. And you know, if I'm a CMO and I go and I see another CMO post about something on linked in. There's only so much you can glean from those 12 lines that they're putting for the blog that they wrote or the podcast. So to be able to have those live dialogues and actually have someone to facilitate that for you is a great value. So that's amazing. James. This has been a blast. I've loved you. Drop some absolute nuggets of wisdom here for anyone that is leading a marketing team or aspires to. I'd be curious one. As we're wrapping up, definitely let people know where they can get in touch with you. If it's linked in again, you know, listen to podcasts wherever it might be. And then if you have any other last words for the revenue leaders out there that might be listening to the show. Yeah, you can obviously find me on LinkedIn that there's no secret to that. So just find me there, but and then I'd love you know, if you want to come listen to the podcast, I think we're doing some pretty good things there again, banking on experiences, what you search for and I guess the last point of advice that I give for revenue leaders is, regardless of the number we have to hit. We have to remember that, more importantly than ever. Now we have to treat people even in our funnel like humans. So and that goes for culture. That goes for how we build a marketing program, how we build the cells program. We can't forget that that's the most important thing. Mm, So true, So true. And that's great. A great way to, uh, to leave us off. Last question I got for you. I know you're Utah Jazz guy. What's the prediction for the season? I think. What? I looked it up before the show. I couldn't even believe there versus the Western Conference. So what's the what's your What's your prediction There? We're coming for you all. That's all I'm gonna say. That's That's all he's got to say. I'm a Celtics fan, so you're not coming. There's nothing. You know. We got nothing good going on anyway. So don't even worry about us. I know. I think we're gonna I think we're having a good season. I think there's obviously some pretty big grudges we have, and that's a dangerous team. When we're playing as well as we are and we have a chip on our shoulder. There's a lot to play for. So absolutely, James, this is a blast. I loved having you on appreciate you spending some time and giving some advice to listeners. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. Alrighty, then. Thank you for listening to the entire episode of that podcast while you're walking the dog or cooking pasta. Or, you know, waiting for your next meeting to start. That should have been an email. Either way, thank you for that. If you found value, please head over to Apple. You can subscribe. Leave a five star review that that helps us tremendously. You can always add me or connect with me on LinkedIn. My name's Tom a limo and definitely hit up our guest, James Gilbert, or more. The last note here is that again this episode was brought to you by quote a path. Put a pet is the first radically transparent end to end compensation solution from sales reps to financing. Get started for free at quota path dot com slash revenue Dash collective And that's it for me, folks. Have a great week. Get after it. I'll see you next Monday piece. Say something mhm.

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