The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

Ep 39: How To Run A Remote SDR Team feat Jimmy Chen

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How To Run A Remote SDR Team feat Jimmy Chen 

Alright, everyone, welcome back. ThankGod it's Monday. Welcome back to the revenue Collective podcast. This isyour Monday host Tom Alamo. I am and a Yukong co host of the podcast. Excitedto have you here. This week's episode is a great one. We've got Jimmy Chen.Jimmy Chen is the director of worldwide sales development at Hacker One inthere a little over two years. He also is the global head of the Associatesprogram for Revenue Collective. So Jimmy and I have a great conversationabout his come up in the str world and how he's adapting to the cove in timesof managing an str team, hiring them, motivating them, getting them to dotheir best work while remote. So I think you're gonna enjoy this episode.If you do, the one way that you can really help is to head over to Apple,subscribe and leave a review. Five star view will take you 45 seconds, right? Afew good words. It helps us to grow a reach, get better guests for the showand ultimately create a better podcast for you. So I would really appreciateit if you do that before we get into the actual episode. I wanna take asecond to talk about our sponsor. So this month, sponsor of the podcast sixcents six cents is the number one account engagement platform that helpsyou identify accounts that are in market for your solution. Prioritizeyour efforts to engage buyers the right way with highly relevant messaging andmeasure what actually matters. But the six cents platform were able to getinto more deals improved when rates increase overall pipeline and optimizedbudget. Spend toe, learn more. Visit six cents dot com slash revenueCollective And now straight to our conversation with Jimmy Chin. Alright,Jimmy Chen, director of worldwide sales Development Hacker one. How we doingthen? Hey, Doing well, Tom. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Thanks forjoining the show. Happy Monday to you hanging in there. You know, even thoughtoday's technically holiday Yeah, but we're still we're still getting in theconversation, so I appreciate it. And I'm excited to have you on the show. Ithought you were You went to tough. So you are. Are you from Boston, or didyou just go out for that? No. So, actually, I'm a San Francisco townieyou don't meet. Very many of us grew up here in San Francisco, and towards theend of my high school career, I I thought about really wanting somethinga little bit different. I had never seen Snow in my life. I wasn't, youknow, one of the kids that went up to Tahoe very regularly. So I wanted to dosomething really, really different and ended up going to school over on theEast Coast, right outside of Boston. I love it. The reason I ask is that I'mfrom the Boston area and lived there most of my life before moving out westabout five years ago. So I wasn't sure. If you're from there, how is yourBoston experience? It was very cold. I think that's the biggest part of it. Wewere. We were outside of Boston in Medford, Somerville area. So it wasn'tnecessarily the most Boston in part. At least it wasn't when I was out there,but I really enjoyed the seasons really enjoyed, also exposing myself to areally different sort of culture compared to San Francisco, but nothingbut really fond memories out there. Yeah, I was going to say you. You enjoythe season. So you enjoy probably two or three of the four seasons. Youdefinitely don't want to be there right now in January. But during the summerand fall on may be part of the spring and Stephanie Super Absolutely. That inDunkin Donuts? Yeah, Dunkin Donuts. I mean, people out there have any Bostonlisteners. I mean, it's ice coffee. Even if it's 10 degrees below zero, itdoesn't matter. Ice coffee with five sugars, right? That's the go to S O S.Oh, that's good, man. That's good. So let's get into it. I wanna learn moreabout your experience, So I'm looking through your linked in and looks likeyou did, you know, kind of had a few different internships and and thingsthat you did after school. But how did you actually get into sales? Was thatwith Sunrun or re doing something with the libraries without Borders beforethat, that was kind of sales related also. Yeah. So my career into sales wasa little bit different. Quite...

...unorthodox, if you will. I spent a lotof time as a teacher, worked in the nonprofit space for a long time, and togive you the most honest answer. I was kind of tired of being broke, worked alot, didn't get paid very much right. And I didn't feel like I was reallymaking the impact for myself or for, you know, the cause that I was workingafter really centered around international development and raisingliteracy scores and the like. When I got down to it, it was thesmokinggun ofthinking about what are the things that are really important to me. And whatare the things I could actually potentially be good at and kind ofthrowing caution to the wind? I ended up landing my first sales developmentgig at a small startup right outside of San Francisco in a little town calledSausalito at a company called Waggle W a G l no e. We were often confused withthe dog walking app Wag. Yeah, in of itself, quite an experience. Nice. Andso, Yeah, I have a sister older sister that was teaching Special Ed for abouta decade and got into sales development last year. Oh, no kidding. Much for thesame, you know, partially, maybe co vid related, but a lot of part man you'rejust working so hard and getting paid no money, and it's really just unfairsystem. So I think a lot of people can relate. Thio that, Hey, you know,sometimes it's you got to do what's gonna put some food on the table atsome point. Sure, how was that transition for you coming from otherroles? A totally different type of job into sales and probably just making aton of cold calls. Yeah, I think taking a step back there it was just kind ofbeing in a place where I was ready to accept that role. So even now, Iinterview a lot of SDRs that are making transitions into sales from all typesof different careers. On the thing that a lot of people run into is this lackof willingness to accept the role for what it is, right. So as you weredescribing earlier, it's a lot of cold calls. It's a lot of getting ahold ofpeople that frankly don't want anything to do with you until you obviously, youknow, demonstrate value and be a good str and the like on for me. I wasfrankly, I was a bit embarrassed to be an str I was, you know, in my midtwenties at the time was coming in from, you know, a different career where Ihad advanced pretty quickly. And it was quite humbling to go back to thebeginning to be the guy that picked up the phone when somebody you knowdecided to call in or send an email and go, Hi, this is Jimmy from waggle on.Ask them to qualifying questions to pass them on to the ee It frankly, itfelt like it was below me, right? And it was one of those things where I hadto suck it up and think, No, actually, this is actually what I want. There isa process here on when I came to the realization that, you know, these arekind of experiences that help build your career in sales, the harder it is.I guess I was a bit of a glutton for punishment. The better the outcomes. Ireally kind of dove into it. And thankfully, it's paid off for me. So itlooks like you went from, you know, entering the company to the head ofaccount development in about a year. So walk me through how you went from, man.I gotta, you know, maybe a little shell shocked coming into this job, this newcompany, this new industry to learning the process, learning the system, doingwell with it and well enough that, you know, I I imagined by being the head ofthe team, you're now running everything you're the leader and and areoverseeing the rest of the SDRs like, walk me through that process. Sure, Iwas always very ambitious and a little bit arrogant. Frankly, for anyemployers now and in the future, that listen to this, You know, I've, youknow, definitely come the heck down. But when I think about my experience,that waggle, I think the biggest thing that drove me is that I was very, veryambitious. And I also had a very clear picture of what I wanted. Towards thestart of my career. A colleague of my introduced me to another organizationin the same hr tech space. Wagle was employee engagement software tool andwe went to the conference, and that organization happens to be hiring for adirector of business development role and, you know, being a bit energeticabout how fast and how great my career...

...was going to be. I took a look at thejob description. It was a director of business of development role. So, likean SDR leader role. And I read through the job description and said, You know,have to do A, B, C and D managed 15 people, whatever. So I actually I savedit as a PdF. I emailed it to myself, and I went to my boss at the Timesnames Adam Tanner. He's now the head of product at Wagga. When I told him Adam,in two years, this is where I wanna be And I showed him the document and hejust kind of looked at me like I was crazy because, you know, if you knowanything about me, I'm a bit quick to jump the gun. I was about a month intothe role, right, and slowly but surely, I developed as an str. I did well at myrole. I was able to gain the trust, my CEO, my head of sales and my peers thatthis is something worth investing in. So we started to have the conversationkind of really on about How do we frankly find Mawr? People like me,people that can hunt people that can qualify leads really be passionateabout the space. Because I had a one track mind of just owning this andgetting out of for lack of better words str purgatory and then being put into aposition of like Okay, well, I can continue as I am Thio to become a Navyat some point. Or I can own this business problem right about generatingpipeline and our organization and build processes and, you know, take a riskand spend a lot of time there to see if I could build out a team on overtime. Iwas able to do that. Hired one other person, served as a player coach for awhile on Then, after, I think a couple of months in, they said, Okay, you know,I think you're better position Thio, leave this team as opposed Teoh, youknow, you just making calls and stuff and I was given the opportunity to hirea full team around me. And then as we continue to kind of scale up, we raisedour syriza and the like. It just kind of cemented the position and I became amanager for the for the first time. It was quite interesting. You know, I wishI could say that it was planned and I knew exactly what I was doing, andeverything was strategic, but no, I was just really hungry. Did the work andkind of fell into it, right? And just continue toe take off after I startedrunning. And how was that first experience running a team? Oh, man, Iwas I was terrified. I mean, I thought I knew what I was doing, right? It's alittle bit of everything. You run into this what I call the super repmentality. You go and tell your other SDRs. Well, this is what I did. So youshould do it like this, or if they're not hitting their numbers, you, like,help them out, right? It's like, Do this, do this, do that. Send this emailhere. Listen to me. Make this call. Do that, You know, just not reallythinking about their needs and development, but really just trying todrive at the number on understanding that actually, my efforts are betterspent by helping other people be successful rather than me showing offthat I still got my stuff and, you know, can make cold calls and do all of that.So that was a really big adjustment for me. The other part of it, too, is that,you know, prior Thio sales development. I did have other work experience. Iworked as a management consultant in the non profit social enterprise space,had some training as a consultant at one of the big force, you know,obviously ran a team as well a small team, if you will, when I was anonprofit. But it felt really different to manage people that actually carrieda quota and taking the time to realize that and really taking a holistic lookat one of those skills that I need to develop. So things like changemanagement how have really strong, effective conversations, right?Coaching conversations, setting me and reinforcing expectations. Those are allbig things that I had to learn. And I just, you know, day after day, justdoing a lot of repetitions and have been ableto build up a lot of thoseskills. May I gotta tell you, that was the toughest thing for me leading ateam when I was a player coach was it wasn't the strategy and the tactics andtrying to hit numbers. We hit numbers. It was the It was the emotionalintelligence and the personal conversations that happened, right? Yougot people at the right early stage of their sales career, early stage oftheir career. They just graduated school. And now you've got people with,you know, family issues and...

...relationship issues, financial issues,all these different things that come to fold. And you need to be ableto I thinkeffective leaders can work with their people across. You know, both theirprofessional and personal lives. Whatever that that person brings up,you you need to be ableto handle that and be with them and be able to helpthem. So I having all those conversations, that was something thatI totally was not ready for. It was a huge throwback to May Tom. I couldtotally relate to all of that. I think the sales development spacesparticularly special in that you work with people that are eithertransitioning careers into sales for the first time and you undo certainthings or you have a lot of people. They're younger impressionable, morejunior in their careers. I need to learn how toe work itself, how to dowork at a company itself, right and then helping them to develop thoseskill sets. And it's a challenge. That was something that I thought I wouldnever overcome but was able to thank God just by the number of repetitionsthat I've been ableto have because you start to become a bit of a shrink.Coach, mentor, teacher You have to play all of these different roles as an strleader, which might be different from other sales management roles. Totally.I mean, so what do you when you get a team right and it's their first day ortheir their entry into sales and being in a sales development rep? What aresome of the first things that you teach them like? Do you focus on the tacticsto focus on the mindset? Do you focus on a combination like walk me throughhow you get on board someone and like what that person needs to do and be tobe successful on your team? Sure, I think the most important thing is thewhy behind either the organization. So why do we have sales, development andwhat the role actually is so that you can set the right level of activitystations. And then second, it's aligning their personal success to thebusiness success, so helping them understand what it means for them to besuccessful in their role. So why do you have to book all those meetings? Whatare you working so hard for? That's the first thing. The second isunderstanding the business and the industry. So we're in cybersecurity.It's a bit technical. There's a lot of jargon, and at times it could be selflimiting. When you run into a new industry trying to understandeverything, you end up taking too much, and the third would be the actual salesskills themselves. So learning how to cold call, writing great emails, how toSocial Cell and the like. I think the third thing, the sale skills areprobably easiest to teach. But the 1st and 2nd are things that we see in theinterview process to determine whether or not it's at least something that isworkable. And then the second piece around the industry for somethingthat's as complex as a security product has to be pretty challenging, right,because this this isn't something that comes very intuitively to most people,the ins and outs, the technology and you know it's probably more challenging.It's definitely more technical than getting on the phone and selling, youknow, a sponsorship to something. For example, right, like the first thing Isold was like I was selling like media sponsorships, like sponsoring an eventlike I could wrap my head around what an event is and why someone would wantto pay $10,000 to sponsor that. But to get into the depths of security and andor more technical type of conversation, that's got to take a lot of time. Imean, it does. But that shouldn't be a limiting factor. And I think you know,to your point about on boarding, that's where a lot of that slack is picked upon. Security as an industry is quite interesting because there's a lot ofdifferent solutions right, so thinking about what is our specific businessoffering and our value to particular clients and aligning that with what ourproduct does and really deeply understanding the personas. That's beenour key to success because you're right. There's just so many things. But notevery single thing that you run into is going to be directly related or franklyimportant. Contextual knowledge is really important, but it's kind of likean str that does too much research, right? If they know too much, then theyget distracted. It's never a bad thing per se, but it's really being a goodmanager and helping them effectively prioritize what is actually usable. Andhow does that help you achieve your goal? And that's where the on boardingand the managerial side comes in.

Whatever mistakes that you see new SDRsor any SDRs make as their in their first role. Yeah, I think the biggestmistake is not fully understanding what it takes for them to be successful. Sothinking that there's some sort of like special gem because they come from adifferent sort of environment or or work in the past, that is gonna havethis direct carry over, and they'll be, you know, figure out something that'samazing. There's some part of it where it does help right, but there's aprocess in place. Like most programs have a process. It's thinking about howyou drive relevancy. It's thinking about how you actually do youractivities. There is a system at play that's underlying, and if you thinkwithout any experience, you're gonna be better than that. Hey, fantastic, proveit. But we haven't seen very many people be able to successfully do that.So the mistake here, bit long winded, is not doing the actual job, right?Yeah, and like if you're coming in, there is a process for a reason, right?It's like you don't need to necessarily reinvent the wheel once you master theprocess, then I feel like is when you can get creative and start going out,you know, outside of the normal boundaries. And that's where I've seena lot of SDRs or young salespeople once they've mastered. Okay, here's my coldcall script and you hear the emails that were sending and so on and soforth. Now I'm going to start using, you know, send Oh, so or, you know nowI'm going to start doing videos. Now I'm going to start going outside of thenormal trajectory and try some things that are more creative. But you can'tjust start from that that land you have to master fundamentals like I can'tplay an instrument, although I wish I could. But you have to get the scalesright before you can start playing real songs. Yeah, and sometimes you can wingit to some degree, right? Like, you know, you happen to find, like, amelody, or I also don't play music, so I don't know, I'm going too far intothis, but it's like you might have something that sounds serviceable, butyou're not gonna be able to scale that, make that repetitive and have thiselement of predictability such that you're able to consistently hit yournumber, right? Because, yeah, you might get lucky every once in a while or itmight work for a little bit. But the process is what helps you get throughthe year, right? And then some. It's like, How do you do that consistently?Yeah. And what does your Orc look like? Like, how many people are reporting toyou? You know, what is your role kind of encompass right now? Sure. I like todescribe my role now as operations and enablement for the str team we haveahead of North America. Malcolm, who also has a manager under him. Weoversee quite a number of different segments across the US, and we alsohave a person in a May as well. Dan, who oversees all of the media. So I'm asecond line and and technically third line manager. A swell on it's been It'sbeen a really interesting experience to transition to a different level ofsales development because the world now is not really just around the tacticalcoaching or building out the plans. It's this kind of new perspectivearound what sales development could be as a business function, right? So, likenowadays, I don't look at my role as a str leader. Obviously that is my titleand that is what I do. I think about myself from the position of being abusiness leader where my role is thinking about how do I best allocatethe resources that are under my charge, right? The effort, the head count, theattention energy of my people to deliver the most pipeline that we canfor the business, and so with that entail, like making sure that the rightpeople are doing the right things, you mean and maybe you have the right toolsin place and the right strategy and and targeting and things like that that aremore high level than here's the playbook. Here's the script. Yeah, andI think if I zoom out even Mauritz thinking about what is it thebusinesses looking to achieve this year? And what are the areas where we caneffectively invest? Our resource is so that we're able to yield a biggerresult. So maybe it's like tweaks to how we do our go to market and how wework with different A ease. Maybe we could be working with the customersuccessor account management team to...

...look for Upsell opportunities. Maybeit's that there is some other approach that we can take right outside of, youknow, just making calls doing Lincoln and the like to generate more pipeline.Maybe it's that, you know, we can just send everyone I don't know, like a giftcard, and it converts like whatever it takes thio yield that maximum Malcolmis where our energy is focused on, and the position that I'm in now isthinking about water. Those possibilities, obviously testing it outto see and have you had any plays, any tools any odd, I guess resource shipsthat have have really worked out for you like the example where people areusing, you know, gift cards. Or yet you bought a new sales technology that thatmaybe is a little underrated that you're getting a lot of value from oryou handle your str e handoffs differently. Anything that's a littleoutside of the norm that you may be taking a bed on and it's paid off. Sofar, there's nothing that comes to mind that is too crazy, different. I thinkwhat we do well is that we execute on the fundamentals in the basics, right?And the one thing I tell a lot of people about being a good str and andbeing successful over time, because that over time element is reallyimportant to me. It's not necessarily just about Hey, I got this new trick orI use Lincoln voicemail and now you know I'm converting or I sent a videoor whatever it's thinking about what are those? Things will consistently besuccessful. We adopted this framework I call Matt, which is an acronym, M. A TT. An acronym for messaging activities, targeting and timing and those are thefour things generally an SDR will focus on if they're not hitting their numberor need to look for something that they could diagnose to. To change the outputright? And what I found to be one of the most successful predictors of anSDR is how well they actually get the timing component. And part of that isbeing very persistent, having really good organizational skills and knowingwhen to reach out. So we have people that can hit their number towards theend of the year just on those follow ups alone, right? And think about thatfor a second right? It's like taking all the people that said, Hey, don'treach out to me or follow up with me later and doing all that and actuallyfollowing up and you'd be surprised to hear a lot of people don't do thatright. Well, they just dropped the ball where they just kind of ignore it andmove on to other things for us. We've created a model where we get people toconsistently follow up when they need thio, because that's work already doneand capture a lot of those low hanging fruits and for us, that's been a reallynice additional layer of predictability. And is that a kind of ah tool that theREPS uses? It's something that it's a principle that you kind of, you know,bring into their heads as they're getting on boarded. That someone'sgoing to tell you have reach out in six months that you better take that note.Or you better market in your sales engagement platform or on your calendar.Salesforce wherever. But how do they? How do they actually do that? Yeah, sowe do this thing where we have people, a log, a specific task type of insalesforce. So instead of booking a meeting, we call it the forecastedmeeting. It scares the bejesus out of people, for whatever reason, forecast.Just scare sales reps. But the idea behind it is that we would log it intosalesforce of when a scheduled follow up is, or you know the reason why wewant to reach out to them at a later time. We assign the relative conversionrates in a predictability, the likelihood of conversion there, and weuse that to build kind of this ad hoc model. But part of what you askedearlier about when we kind of break this and it's part of our DNA andoperating cadence. So our str managers will ask every single one on one. Hey,who's on your forecast? Who do you think is going to convert? How are thepeople that you have kind of been building up like where they at? So thatwe have more visibility into what's happening in those accounts and thepeople there? And it's also very helpful because for things like youknow, if someone wants to do a cop blitz or go after warm prospects in thelike, they will always have a list. So it's systematize ing what people thebest reps, I think do instinctively of...

...like they're posted note or whatever ofpeople there, Actually, one follow ups. It's not like groundbreaking. It's justfundamentals, right? And I feel like a lot of people don't execute againstthose basics. Yeah, I love that. And how do you handle the str arelationship or they want toe one or And how do you recommend because I'vehad several SDRs that you know they'll hit me up on LinkedIn or something? Askme questions Hey, you know, how do I work best with my A You know, how do Iget them to value my output? How do I get them to, you know, help me out orcoach me or or mentor me or things like that? So how do you coach the SDRs towork with the A's towards their goals while also making sure that they hit ontheir own goals? I think it starts from the top, right? The sales organizationhas thio, except that the sales development function is something thatadds value on if the leaders don't believe that to be the case, thereisn't very much that you can do to really change that, so you can changeit at maybe, like perhaps the personal relationship across str s and A S. Butit's systemic and something that needs to be addressed at that level. Toanswer your question directly about, you know, what does that relationshiplook like? And how do you handle it, and how do you optimize for a reallygood relationship? I think it's a lot around influence and around justalignment, right? So thinking about what are the common objectives that wewant to achieve between S t r E right? Where can we get the most bang for abuck in terms of how we invest our efforts, Right. And what are thosegoals that were held to and how do we hold each other accountable? And itcould start office like, you know, right at the start, a conversationbetween A and SDR where they discussed. Okay, these are the things that Imeasured on. This is what I need to be successful. And this is what I think Ineed from you. So for an SDR, from an A, it's Hey, I need to make sure that youactually sit these meetings that I said for you, right? We should have a sharedagenda so that we can keep each other accountable in terms of action items inthe and who's doing what next. So that's basic project management. Weshould have a general understanding of who's going after which accounts andwhich personas. Within those accounts, if it's 1 to 1 at an enterprise level,we should have a deeper understanding of what that you know, our valueproposition to those companies are thinking also about how do wespecifically tailor a message and a more intimate level to these theseright fit people and accounts. It's thinking also about, you know, how doyou coordinate activities between the both of you so that there is also nooverlap, which is a big component of it, and then really building thisrelationship where both of you see each other as a inalienable part of eachother? Success like I think it's just tying them together like their successmetrics, right, that will get them toe work together. It's like making themone singular unit. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I want a pivot to talk alittle bit about revenue collective and and not necessarily as a pitch for thecommunity. Although we both think it's a great community. I'm curious you'vegotten really involved. Love, revenue collective. I see. I see your you knowyour name, popping up on the slack channel all the time, and, you know, Ithink you're the looks like the global head of the Associates program and andfor those that don't know, it's kind of broken out into two categories. There'sfolks that I think Rvp plus and then you know, below VP and below veep,you'd be an associate. So maybe just tell me why are you Why do you get soinvolved? Like, why are you doing so much for a community that you knowisn't you didn't create the community. But But why are you putting so mucheffort into it? I tell this to a lot of people that I speak with, right? Whatyou get out of it is what you put in. So if I can help make revenuecollective a better place more useful place for our members like I'm all inbecause when I think about my career and we didn't touch on this too muchearlier, I have always adopted this mentality that almost a collectivistapproach where I asked for help, right? Like I don't know everything. Like whenI was first time as a manager, like I didn't know what good looks like. I hadto ask around. I had toe reach out to...

...people cold on LinkedIn and say like,hey, so and so I'm a new str manager. Like, what do I do? Because I wasbuilding that team for the first time, right? And it was through thesepositive experiences where I reached out to people called on Lincoln thatwas able to accelerate my career and learn as much as I did and develop aperspective around different things. When I think about revenue collective,I think it's that in a really, really smaller setting where you're able toactually build more intimate relationships. So, for example, youknow, when I when I talk to people and, you know, say, someone wants to joinRevenue Collective I talk about it in terms of building a bench for talentthat you have access to, not necessarily to recruit per se, butthinking about, for instance, Utah. You know what does it Tom 10, 20 years fromnow look like? What access does he have to professionals in this field? Andwhat it boils down to for a lot of people is it's just kind of getting tothat future state a little bit sooner by having that access and democratizingknowledge where hey, if I have a question about demand, Gen being in asales person, I know who I would call. I know who I would ask my stupidquestions to and and trust me. There's a lot of stupid questions that I haveright and being ableto have that access to people because that's what amembership committee is all about. It's about helping each other out. It'sabout providing, you know, novel insight, right? And obviously there's alot of other benefits. There's a great events, right, a lot of thoughtleadership. There's like, you know, rising executive programs for peoplethat want to advance their careers. You know, there's a lot of really greatthings in there, and the reason why I wanted to get involved is I wanted tokind of spread the message, help people. This is becoming a bit of a pitch, butit's been nothing short of a great experience. Yeah, and I love thethought of, you know, thinking about your career and where it could be, youknow, 5, 10, 20 years down the road and the connections that you can make andthe people that you can help, but also that they'll help you down the line aswell. And that's really just, you know, networking and building relationships.How do you go about that, right? Because the community is I don't knowhow big but several 1000 people, right? So how do you find maybe niches withina major community like that? Yeah, I think it's formulating what it is thatyou want out of it, or specific questions that you wanna ask Withinrevenue Collective. There's like a database of everyone there that is, youknow, Onley exclusive for members. And what's really cool is that you couldjust reach out to anyone. And people will respond pretty quickly and arealmost always open toe a chat. And what I really like about Revenue Collectiveis that, you know, at times there aren't really crystal clear specificasks. I think being a part of the membership and having interest in otherpeople is kind of a strong enough trigger to reach out. But for me, Ithink about it in the context of, like, what are their functional areas, wherethey based how they encountered a problem like mine before, Or if I'mcurious about what the next thing in my career looks like, you know, taking alook at their profile and kind of reaching out as as if you would bedoing normally in just a networking setting. I think having that connectionthere being, you know, fellow members. It's people that self select peoplethat really want to help others out and are also very knowledgeable, right?Because you know, as much as you know, we like Thio recruit everyone. This isnot a community for everyone were very inclusive for sure, right? But it's acertain type of people that are successful for lack of better wordshere. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree that you want there to be like manypeople, you both wanna have skin in the game, right? You want there to bepeople around that are not just joining this group and then forgetting about it,you know, for 10 months and then rejoining. You want people that arealso actively trying to get better. We're trying to build up their networksor trying to meet with them. You know, I'm sure there's things about yourcareer They wanna learn from Justus. Muchas you wanna learn from them aswell. And you know, I always find in any macro you know any sort ofcommunity. And I love revenue collective. I know there's a lot ofother communities out there too, and some that will, you know, spawned thisyear, I'm sure is trying to find those...

...one on one connections, right? Liketrying to meet people one on one. I'm personally not someone that playsreally well in, like a huge slack environment. Or maybe even joins a tonof, you know, 100 200 person webinars, but trying to find people that areinteresting. You have lunch with them or a coffee with them or, you know,join up more intimate Happy hour or something like that that helps you thiokind of grow. Those relationships is, well, absolutely. I talk a lot aboutthis element of intentional spontaneity. It's a It's a term that I stole fromone of my colleagues, Malcolm, also an R C member, and particularly in thisdigital environment. How do you replicate that, right. How do you meetpeople that you don't already know or have some sort of connection Thio oreven a like connection? And with revenue collective and a lot of thesocial events that we run, It's, you know, getting people together, you know,a simple as like a zoom room, right? And then, you know, pairing them up for,like 10, 15 minutes, like its speed, dating or whatever. And then, at thevery least, help spur that conversation. Because if you think about it likelet's say that you go to an in person happy hour. When you think about whatis a successful outcome of that happy hour, like the go no go decision like,why would I want to go to this happier our or not? Oftentimes you try torationalize some sort of like Take away, right? It's like, Well, if I meet soand so that will be worth it or if I talked to one or two people that willbe worth it. And usually that's the case for a lot of people. So how do wefacilitate that digitally? What? We have a group of people that love thenetwork that are in your space that are super interested in meeting otherpeople. And we're just connecting the dots for people right and helping themfind like minded people. Right? And that sense of community is reallystrong, and I would argue, is kind of the magic of RC Yeah, and it's, youknow, it's great any time of your career to do that, but especially nowin Cove, it at least you know, it just so happens to have lined up. Thatthat's as long as I've been a member is pretty much the root cove It and I'vemade some great connections that way in a way that to your point, what was thequote planned? Spontaneity, intentional spontaneity? Intentionally? Yeah. Imean, I love that you like being ableto you know, just like you might run intosomeone in person somewhere. Or if you're working in a big office, youmight bump into them and, you know, in the cafeteria or something, you cankind of do that through some of these channels, meet people that you wouldn'thave met before and do that virtually in a world where you know, we're all inour apartments or our homes, you know, just grind a win our laptops andglobally, right? And that's the other part of it. I feel like, you know,having co vid the positive externality blessing in disguise, if you will, issuch that now I'm like, all sync up with people on the East Coast. A lot ofpeople in London, Some folks in a pack is well because the thing that unitesus is the fact that we're all super driven right, and we want to besuccessful in our respective roles and and talk shop for lack of better words,and now have more people to do it and really different and interestingperspectives. Because we're drawing from a global audience. It's It'snothing short of amazing. I love it. I love it. So has revenue collective atall? Or any networking community like that helped or even linked in helped onhiring? I know I'm not sure if you still are, but I know you've beenhiring this year. Hacker one. How has that been? Virtually, And have some ofthese networking groups help there to find good candidates? It's been amazing.I think leveraging the community to help flying candidates has been superhelpful. You know, it's one of those things. Like I said earlier, you getout more as you put in more So when I mentioned that I was hiring for myrolls and you know other people within the sales and marketing team, I had alot of people reach out. Say, Hey, I know so and so a let me post this on mynetworks and all that. It's just it's been nothing short of amazing. Lincolnis obviously very helpful, a swell as a platform to disseminate a lot of thisinformation. But yeah, I mean, I think community and investing community andsocial networking and on the like, particularly in this digitalenvironment, is really, really important for this year to come. Andthen some. I feel like the game has...

...changed totally and just on maybe onelast point on the hiring side, I think that's been probably a tough thing fora lot of people. I have a theory that a lot of hires that were made last yearand and maybe even this year that at some point I feel like there's gonna bea pretty high drop off rating because both the interviewer and theinterviewee haven't met in person, and I think there's a lot of good thingsthat can happen over Zoom or, you know, over the phone. But I think thatthere's just something about being in a room with someone, and being able totell is this my type of person, you know, is this my type of company. If ifI'm the candidate, that's looking somewhere. So I'm curious. Like whathave you change in your process now that it's fully virtual? And do youfeel like you have a good kind of, you know, fundamentals for that? For whatyou're looking for, when you're hiring and how to kind of sniff out with theright person is gonna be. That's an awesome question, and I'll answer thatin a couple of different parts. I think in terms of the hiring profile, we lookfor people that are going to be successful no matter what. So peoplewith this immense desire to be successful with their intrinsicmotivation right when we talk about str on boarding the number one thing, thesecond thing that we really focused on in terms of hiring for a remoteenvironment and the people around it is making sure that they can still hittheir number and be successful in a fully remote world. I know that that'snot mind blowing by any stretch of the imagination, but it's making sure liketemplates are easy to find. Trainings are on demand, right, having thingslike, you know, a wiki of some sort having customs rituals built out interms of how we communicate as a team, what is on slack versus what is onemail so that there isn't a loss of efficiency or even a perceived loss ofefficiency so that they can see that actually, it is something that theycould do. Then we look for people that could be successful in a remote world.So thinking about okay are these people the type of people that will happily,you know, sit at their desk for lack of better words. Onda bang out calls andwrite emails and still feel okay with doing that because, frankly, not a lotof people are able to thrive in such environment. So we're not thinkingabout it from the perspective of how do we be reactive of this? You know,Specter off co vid. But how do we be proactive and make this an advantage? Acompetitive advantage in terms of accessing, are really diverse set oftalent, right, and then still achieving the same level, if not higher resultsthan we have been before? So that's the those are the two big things there, andwould you say that part of that is also being pretty candid with, say, anincoming str That might be a college grad or something like that, someonethat doesn't have a lot of experience or certainly not sales experience ofwhat the role is. I think you mentioned before, like one of the mistakes thatpeople maybe don't know what they're getting into or not sure what the jobreally is. So I imagine that a way of making that kind of a superpower foryour organization is being very candid about how hard it's going to be andwhat the work entails so that yeah, some people might fall off. But thepeople that you get through, you know, are right for the job and are ready toput in that work. That's totally it's setting and reinforcing clearexpectations. And I think we have gotten a lot better out of necessityover the last couple of years. Especially, yeah, I love it, man. Well,I Jimmy, I know we're wrapping up here. We're short on time. I appreciate youcoming on the show. I'd love for you to just take a minute and tell people alittle bit about where they can connect with you and anything else that you'dlike to share about if you have upcoming events or anything else thatis exciting for you in February. Sure, in February. Let me think about thatfor a second. Well, first you can connect with me on LinkedIn pretty easyto find. It's Jimmy Chen from Hacker 14 Words shouldn't be very many otherJimmy Chance from Hacker One. I've never wait. Hold on. I've never seenYeah, I've never seen anyone do that. I'm sure it's intentional. So maybe youcould tell me that. Yeah, so I just I mean, now I can't give everyone mysecret, but the idea behind it is that I just put my company name as my lastname like Chen from Hacker One, as if...

...it's just one name so that it shows upon the Lincoln Thing so that whenever someone sees, they'll see that it's thecompany and my name. Were you getting confused for other Jimmy Chance? No,it's just that I was recruiting right on thinking about how do you put like alot of impressions on the name of the company and the person, and it's alsolike, you know, You can't be better if you're not different. So you gotta bedifferent. I love it. I love it. All right. Sorry to interrupt. Where elsecan we wait? Yeah. I mean, find me on LinkedIn. Hacker ones always hiringcross sales and marketing. We're doing quite a big hiring sprint right now, sotake a look at our careers page. If you know you want someone to talk to you, Ican definitely connect you. That's awesome. Oh, sorry. One last thing. Ifyou are an str and you're listening to this podcast or an str aspirant, youcan send me an email at Jimmy at hacker one dot com with the subject linewallawalla bang Bang and I will respond. You are trying to prospect me. I willnot respond. People applied for jobs and not use that subject. They totallyhave and they've been successful. But the ones that get a conversationgenerally are the ones that do that. I love it. I love it. I love thecreativity, Jimmy. I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Thank you somuch for having me. Tom E. Alright. I hope you enjoyed that episode withJimmy Chen one more quick word from our sponsor. This episode was brought toyou by six cents, powered by AI and Predictive Analytics. Six cents helpsyou unite your entire revenue team with a shared set of data to achievepredictable revenue growth. So please, to support the show support our sponsorso you could check them out, please. Again. Goto Apple. You can leave a fivestar review for the show that would help us to grow. You can also connectwith me. I am Tom. A lame O on LinkedIn. I am running Mondays for this podcast.I'm in 80 over a gong Love to connect. I would love to chat with you aboutanything revenue related or otherwise. So thanks again for listening. Hope youhave a great day. Cheers, E.

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