The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 122: Growing From A VP to GM Role w/ Paul Sebastien

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Ep 122: Growing From A VP to GM Role w/ Paul Sebastien

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.  

All right, thank God it's monday. Welcome back to the Pavilion podcast where we show you the tips that tricks the tactics that you need to be successful as a revenue leader and operator. I'm your host Tom Alamo. I'm an 80 over gone doing some work here for the Pavilion crew, excited to bring you a great episode this week. This week I'm talking to paul Sebastian paul's got a freaking rap sheet of accomplishments. Currently he is the chief marketing officer at Offensive Security. He's a startup mentor and investor at the Alchemist accelerator, Obviously a member at Pavilion, formerly he's done a ton of things, been involved with a lot of acquisitions everywhere from being the GM at Microsoft and Sony to being a VP and GM at Disney mobile CMO at T mobile and being the GM at you. To me that helped to launch their entire B two B brand. Amongst many other things, paul has just an amazing set of accomplishments and get into a lot of great topics and I think you're gonna learn a lot from him and pick up on his infectious energy before we get to that conversations, give a quick shout out to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by drift. More than 50,000 businesses use drift to grow revenue and increase customer lifetime value faster drift, helps their customers align sales and marketing on a single platform to deliver a unified customer experience where people are free to have a conversation with the business at any time on their terms, learn more at drift dot com. Without further ado, let's get straight into my conversation with paul Sebastian. Let's go All right, paul, Good afternoon, Welcome to the Pavilion podcast. How are you? I am doing well, thanks for having me on. Yeah, excited to have you here and before we get into uh your accolades, your experience, everything like that. Are you in that looks like you're in the bay Area. Are you in or where I am? Yes, I am here in the Bay Area. Okay, nice. Are you a native? I'm not a native, no, originally Minneapolis actually, but came out here back during the dot com one point oh days. So I've been out here a long time, then went up to Seattle at a stint there about seven, let's see about eight years up in Seattle at Microsoft and smaller roles, so and then back down to the Bay Area in 2009. Okay, awesome. Well you have quite a rap sheet as folks just heard on the intro of just amazing accomplishments and companies that you've been a part of throughout your career, we definitely won't have time for all of them, but I did want to kind of harp on a few if that's alright with you. So one that really stood out to me was GM You to me that you took over in 2014 and what I think maybe a lot of people don't recognize or know at this point is that back then? I believe it was completely a BDC model. Um, and they weren't selling anything B two B...

...and it sounds like you kind of took over with that role and built everything from the B two B side. You built the brand, you built the go to market strategy. I'd love to hear about how that opportunity presented itself to you or how you found it and what that was like in building that brand, just seeing how amazingly successful they've been since. Yeah, great. I mean that's a great place to start and that was a role that I look back on fondly and learned a ton. It was also scary as hell, especially coming on board and, and having a slate like that to try to figure out. So it was really, really an exciting time. I mean, huge credit to the then Ceo and board I think who had this thesis around, hey, you know, we've got all this consumers or a transactional revenue. We hope people buy more courses on the consumer side every single month and that they come back. But is there a B two B, is there a saS subscription thesis here that can work with a two sided marketplace based business? Because again, you know, you, to me is unique in that unlike other, on my learning vendors at the time, they really, they didn't create their own courses. They were really a two sided market place, much like an Ebay or others, right. And that they facilitated the creation of great courses, the set of tools and of course the, the marketplace site, but they didn't control the content. So it's like, how do you go and create a B two B SAS offering sold to companies and organizations? That's a recurring revenue model. Like how do you do that with a marketplace based consumer business? So that was really kind of the business and sort of market, you know, coda market challenge to figure it out, that I was lucky to get hired to help figure out and build something out of. So, you know, I started really with a team of really, I think it was one or two people there were really a couple of people there who are kind of part time on the project? And then everything else was sort of shared resources. So, you know, we're very scrappy early on there and had to figure out first and foremost what is the offering. And so for me, what was really exciting and I really enjoyed about that was it was very unclear, especially at the time, how could a company that already has a brand that is known for, you know, sort of consumer sites selling individual courses? How could they come up with an offering that was compelling in the B two B SAs, you know, subscription context also, how would that even work? Right. So how, how do you like choose what courses? How do you get permission to use a set of course? Is is it like a netflix kind of model with a set library? Does library change? So all of those things were really part of the slate for me and my team to figure out. And so it's very much kind of a four piece exercise and I think the part that I really enjoyed the most of that and I really love doing in general is figuring out that strategy, that positioning. Like how can we own a unique hill in a very crowded market where we have this really weird unique challenge of trying to figure out how to leverages brand and build kind of a new company inside the company really gonna build a brand inside of a brand.

And so I love that work and trying to figure out and test and explore a number of different vectors for how to do that. And long story short, you know, we were able to come up with a go to market and uh, positioning and a core value prop that I felt was differentiated that we could build a unique hill that we could own and we really have to be very narrowing sharp about that. And I think that was the most important part of that early stage was just figuring out what do we want to do, how is it different as opposed to just sort of wrote execution where you're just kind of blindly saying, okay, We're going to create a B2B thing is subscription offering. Let's focus all sort of on the product or on just building out an offering that just leverages the existing brand that I don't think that that would have worked. So it took a very sharp, very pointed, very unique value prop to get some early logos and get some early kind of pilot customers on board and then we use those logos to go in and get larger companies, larger enterprises. And so it ended up being this kind of barbells strategy early on there where you know, we have to figure out where we could, where our value prop and our unique positioning with this early product could actually work and fit, get those logos build on the customer evidence, their leverage, things like events and a number of other things that we have to do to try to scrap aly build this thing from 0-1. Yeah, I'm curious like, you know, a lot of folks listening probably have some sort of, you know, either they're at a early stage startup or maybe they have a business that's a start up within a start up or a new product or an acquisition that happened or something like that. So I am curious like did you ever feel strapped for resources as being kind of like, you know, I hate to use in terms of like the little brother or like you know, how did you, how did you, you know, kind of work against that or not let that diminish the value you were able to bring to the business. That's a great question. I mean even you know, internally it was challenging, right? Because this was sort of this little, I wouldn't say that the red headed step child, but it was sort of it was so new nation and at first of course really had no revenue. Right? And then a small amount of revenue. Right? I mean we're going from zero literally this thing did not exist when I joined to getting first revenue right? Those first customers when you're reporting in the sort of team, you know, all hands meetings, things like that. Hey guys, we scored our first couple years comparatively to the revenue being presented by the B the c part of the business. It just looks so small in some kind of pathetic at first. But of course, you know, we're building something from scratch, something from nothing and we knew, I mean I think we all knew and credit to, you know, again, the then ceo aboard my team that we all had a strong thesis that look if we can figure out how you can have, can kind of get the value prop right, right? We can do something differentiated and unique and add some unique value. That leverage is just a few of our very unique strengths that we could bring to the space if we could execute on that...

...and get companies to see that this was really a better way and more frictionless way to deploy a nice broad range of high quality online learning that was very dynamic and always changing, always improving that. Plus a few other components of the offering were really, really, really sharply differentiated and we just have to, you know, again I keep saying we have to really figure out what are those laser like pinpoint sharpest parts of the value prop that we could just double down, triple down on and solve customer's pain kind of really enable things that the competitors and this credit market we're just not able to address. So that again was key And so we knew that there was a there there right. If we could just crack that get more and more customers leverage customer evidence, testimonials, things like events that we would be able to kind of build a flywheel. Unfortunately that's what's happened. And of course I feel huge props to the team and the team after me that continued that race. I mean they've taken many years to build it to where it is. But I mean they just crossed, you know, they just announced recently they crossed 100 millionaire are, it's just a delight to see how they've executed and how that early germ of the thesis and you know, the the original work that our team did has blossomed as something like it has today. I mean it's really very, very satisfying but again huge props to the execution of that team. Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious when I look at your history currently your CMO, you've had a number of CMO rolls a few Gm roles as well. Like I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the difference between those roles and maybe why you you might prefer one or the other, why one might stand out more than another role just based on your experience. Sure. You know, it's something that's come up on Pavilion as well. I've had some questions about this because it's interesting I'm seeing there's more and more cases where people who are in what are you know sort of line of business functions, it could be marketing roles or other are you know, they go through an acquisition or there's some sort of change of the company and they have an opportunity to take on a GM role or GM like role and so you know the differences between line of business or you know for example CMO role and GM role. Something that I experienced not just once but twice, sorry, three times in my career actually if you count the ceo role as being you know kind of a very much a GM role. So that's something that for me has been a really interesting straddling of world, I mean I've really, I really love it and I think it's because I have a weird background I'm not straight up just coming up through the ranks through just marketing functions only I came at it originally from managing and running projects and kind of building go to markets kind of all up if you will meeting owning the PML owning all the different parts of the business. And I really enjoyed that. Like I love I love actually owning A P. N. L. And that's why I've taken roles like the enemy rule over GM roles because I like the sort of leading the charge all up. And...

...it just happens though that marketing ends up being such a an important part of these go to markets where you're trying to drive rapid growth. So that's where the CMO roles have made a lot of sense. And I think in my D. N. A kind of a marketing guy, a marketing strategy guy I think at my core. I mean I like obsess over positioning and strategy and differentiation and kind of how can we distill the essence of what this offering in the market is compared to sort of competition and all this sort of sort of four piece stuff just live even breathe that and messaging and how you articulate that to customers. So I think that's where the marketing roles have made a lot of sense. And frankly you know the CMO role as we know in recent years has been shifting more and more become closer to a C. R. O. Role and you know, P. And L. If not ownership but accountability has become the norm and so it is long since the days of the CMO who sort of levitates on a magic carpet, espousing the virtues of brand positioning right? And lives in this sort of what was known as a formally sort of marketing already kind of almost an agency world path. And so you know, I think being able to connect the dots to own A. P. And L. Or at least have accountability to be able to look at marketing as a set of tools in the quiver of tools that you have to work with to achieve a set of business goals, right? It's all about goal is all about outcomes and business goals. And so my brain has always worked like that. I'm passionate about just finding a way to get from point A to point C. And marketing is just one of the sort of you know, tools in the quiver that one can use to achieve that, but it's not the only one. And so I think that kind of lateral thinking is something I would encourage people who are either straddling those two worlds or interested in moving from a GM role to marketing or marketing to to a GM like role is that, you know, the GM role really is really a ceo role, You are all of your accountable for the health of the business, right? And that's product that's marketing, that sales, it's all of it and that's the big distinction. You know marketing roles despite the increased accountability for P. N. L. And revenue, you're still within the bounds of marketing to a degree and it's sort of your focus, your team, your resourcing GM role, totally different GM roles. Now it's more it's more like a project manager with authority in many, many ways is one analogy. And so it's a different way of thinking about the business and it forces you to think about business outcomes, business goals and using every part of your orig is tools in the quiver, not just marketing. Right? And that's a big shift and if people don't have experience in those other areas it can be difficult to do that but you don't need to be an expert in every single function. What you do know, do you have to do is understand how the part to work together and how you can much like a conductor orchestrate the different parts of your functions to work together towards that business...

...outcome. And that's where again, I think that sort of sort of project management and sort of team management experience is just invaluable there. But you know, it comes with responsibility and accountability because you are the buck stops here much like a ceo. Yeah and you've also had a great track record of joining into companies and helping them drive through some sort of an event, you know, through several acquisitions that I see here as well. So I'm curious like, you know, part of that, I'm sure let's give you plenty of credit and like you've helped to do that, but it seems like maybe you've also been really good at choosing the right opportunity for you, where you can probably where you can probably add the most value, right? And maybe it's someone that needs your type of skill set to take them from that point A to point B. And I'm sure you get tons of opportunities that come your way and you obviously can't take all of them, right? You can only take on one at a time. So I'm curious like how do you go through the decision making process to see, okay at this stage in your career, you've already done so much? Like how do you, how do you determine what is a good opportunity for you where you can add the most value? And but there's also, you know, most likely to be a strong outcome for the business. It's a great question. And I appreciate it. And let me firstly just say how incredibly impossibly lucky I have been and, and feel around the opportunities that I've had and the outcomes that have happened. I do not want to take, you know, credit or responsibility for uh those great outcomes. I mean this is, I'm part of teams and I've been very lucky to produce some great people and great teams. I just, I cannot stress that enough. I mean, you know, it's while I wouldn't say we just sort of like right seat right time because I did pick some very specific opportunities and it was a lot of blood sweat and tears to get those outcomes. Um and I really, really enjoyed that, but you know, I think luck and timing and um working with great people and then figuring out how to work with with people is key. I've also had some misses, so just be very clear like this has not all been roses. I I definitely had some misses and you know, some painful ones, you know, to be honest with you, it's not all roses and I think, you know, I've tried to learn from those misses and where those roles, you know, turned out to be very different than I had hoped and expected and you know, I thought something would would be one way and it didn't work out that way and the that happens, but you live and learn. So I suppose if anything, yeah, I do have those highlights, but I've also got some battle scars to show for it as far as picking opportunities. You know, I've been lucky, especially, you know, in in recent years here to be able to pick some interesting and kind of off the beaten path roles as well in that, you know, I've gone to different disparate spaces most recently in the cybersecurity realm where I've been for the last few years and I get excited about. Look, I mean people are just really disruptive market opportunities where, you know, I see either customers underserved in some way or there's some...

...aspiration or delight that is just waiting to be had that just that hasn't been done yet or there is a kind of a diamond in the rough opportunity where other people aren't seeing it. But maybe I see something that I think I, I could bring my skill set to and I think those are the things I've tried to choose and that's where I think I've been through some of these sort of early stage companies that have gone on to be acquired by larger companies. It's really come from that, it's kind of looking for those diamonds in the rough in some cases as opposed to through the obvious place. And so that's something I've tried to be conscious of. I also, again, it really comes down to saying, okay, how can I add some differential value? Right. How can my background, my skills add something that they're missing or be so complimentary or impactful in some way that it's going to make a big difference that I think we can all achieve something great together. So that's something that just takes exploring and kind of pressure testing a bit and finding and again, it doesn't always work out right. I definitely have had a couple of mrs there, it's also very you know, going through acquisitions, it sounds great and rosie it's also very though disruptive to your personal life, especially when for example when it doesn't make sense for you to sort of stay on at the acquiring company either because of location, like I would have had to move back to Seattle or something or. Right, so that's a factor too. And that's where it's like, you know sometimes when acquisitions happen fairly quickly after a year or two it can be disruptive, right? Because then you're like, okay, well it doesn't make sense for me to kind of continue with this thing, I need to go find something else. And so I think that's part of the experience as well and things are just accelerating so fast now as well. That that's just I mean I have so many friends now including CMO friends who you know, it's like the average tenure of a CMO now is like 11 months which is just crazy. Both, both due to, you know, I think accountability and the pressure is higher than ever. And of course everyone wants to blame marketing, right? So things are great or or you think we'll just change our marketing person, right? So that's that's pretty funny, you know, it's like so so it's much like sales and that, you know, the marketing roles have become very very short by comparison but you know acquisitions, you know, again it can be extremely disruptive and they can kind of force a change in your career and I guess for me, I've been lucky in the sense that when that's happened, I've been able to go and find another diamond in the rough for a company that I've been excited about and keep doing what I'm passionate about. I love it. I'd love to uh pick your brain for a minute about the Alchemist accelerator. I know you've been involved with them for for a good 67 years now and it's a topic that comes up, not, not necessarily this accelerator, but the topic of taking your skills and experiences too, either be a mentor and advisor or angel investor. That topic comes up a lot when talking with other Pavilion executives is something they're interested in and it seems like there's more access to that now than ever. So I'd love to hear you talk about, you know, your experience and, and you know what you've gained from working with some of those start ups...

...the past few years. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I really, number one, just in general, I really have found that I love helping early stage companies helping other founders, helping people in marketing roles and sharing, you know, any experiences insights good and bad that I've had and being helpful, they're passionate about these topics and so it's just a lot of fun for me and I get just a lot of frankly enjoyment and satisfaction out of helping people and so it's something I've done for a long time and I've been involved with Alchemist now for several years. Alchemist is just in my opinion, very unique accelerator here in the valley. They are just, I think that they just have incubated so many great companies and I love the approach, I love how they work with their companies to each class and how they train them and all the sharing of knowledge, all this sort of luminaries that they have come in and help mentor. I'm just humbled by being part of it and I really enjoy it. So I, you know, I give a couple marketing talks a year to their classes which I really enjoy and ends up being both kind of a presentation about how to think a little differently about marketing and then also it's it's just a lot of very hands on kind of help, so it's Q. And A. It's helping and then it usually leads to me doing some kind of ongoing helping even non advisory style, just just you know, being sort of a fresh pair of eyes and ears to help these founders. So something I really, really love doing, I continue doing it and it's funny how the dots connect doing that has, has actually really uh I've developed some great friendships over the years and and I feel like I just get a lot out of it, so it's one of those things where it's like you give, you give you give, but like the karma and satisfaction ends up giving back, right? There are more opportunities for people than ever to be able to share their knowledge and skills with others full stop. Right? So whether it's helping advise accelerators or getting involved with Pavilion, I mean, Pavilion is just such a wonderful environment where people are sharing tips ideas. I have been remiss to in not doing it enough. I mean, it's been a time thing. I'm trying, trying to be more active on it. It's just been amazing to see that forms like Quilliam have just been, you know, it's just a huge new, I think, opportunity to share ideas and expertise and in very tactical ways to write, you know, sharing or charges saying, hey guys, I'm stuck on this. You know, working with fellow cmos that's usually helpful and then, you know, investing, right? So, you know, there's of course more opportunities for investing than ever. It has been truly, really democratized. Right? And so with the exception of getting access to really Premier deal flow, it's fairly easy now to get in on the opportunity to have some part in a number of early stage companies through many of the existing forms, exchanges out there and then frankly just by...

...adding value, by offering your expertise and your help. It's incredible how people will come to you, right? And they'll come to you, not fundraising, but you know, you're helping, you're advising someone. Someone here is that you've given the advice and suddenly you're talking with them and there is an opportunity to invest. And so I just think it's a, it's a great exciting time. I think it'll get even more exciting. It's quite frankly, as we kind of take this next hump on the Blockchain side of things and we get past the ability to finally tokenize. Right? So obviously there's a lot of restrictions here in the US right now on that, but it's happening globally. You can't put it back in the box. And I think that's going to fundamentally change the way a that venture capital works or just the idea of capitalizing business entities, It will change the way that these entities are structured completely. You'll see a lot more decentralized, truly virtual companies or entities that one can invest in through token purchases. So I think that's the new frontier. And I would say that if I were someone who wanted to start to get into this area now, I would personally spend my time on learning all about Blockchain right. And tokenization and defy because I think that's where and how all this is going to be, john in the very, very near future. It will be much less around about the classic stages of, you know, precedes seed A B, etcetera, etcetera. You'll still of course have that, that will not go away overnight. But I think you'll have a lot more just really truly disruptive opportunities around Blockchain based in tokenized capitalization. And so I think that's a great place to get involved. You also can better quantify in many cases your involvement as an advisor or as someone who's helping companies, right? So the tokenization and having a stake in something, these are truly, I think different and frankly better mechanisms than the existing options based venture world has afforded, particularly in the sense of enabling almost anybody to be able to participate and then get some quantification of reward or incentive. So I mean I could talk all day about Blockchain but personally that's what I'm super passionate about. So what are some of the best resources that you have for learning about? D5 Blockchain and where this is heading from? I guess it could be from any perspective, but we're talking about from like a an investment venture capitalist perspective. God, it's a it's a great question, it's still such a Wild West right now that there isn't really one sort of authoritative resource, there's a number of different ways that of course one can just learn Blockchain and and defy and really understand the principles, I would start with the principles first actually I wouldn't just go right into the deep end and start to get into, you know to sort of defy specifics, I would understand Blockchain from the ground up in in the...

...most simple pure form, It's actually not hard to learn. So understanding just the principles behind Blockchain and tokenization are a great place to start honestly, to start googling. There's also much of Youtube stuff out there. I also think that in that very sort of next phase after understanding the basics and recent Horowitz actually their podcast, for example, their blog, there's a lot of great crypto stuff there because they are of course, as you can tell a very, very passionate about that, they just put 100 million series B into an ft marketplace open C. They've done a ton of investing their, I think Salon a others. So there's a lot of good thinking there, even on the podcast front, there's a ton of podcast, I recommend Kevin Rose has a podcast now devoted to crypto, so a lot of that sort of, you know, what it calls pseudo mainstream is good at sort of distilling and summarizing what sort of happening currently. Once you understand the basics and I think from learning from listening, reading etcetera, you'll pretty quickly kind of learn what's going on and understand just how profound the implications are and what will be very soon possible or I'd say possible now just sort of not evenly distributed yet, as they say, right. So, you know, it's like all of the future is is basically available now. It truly has not been distributed yet, especially in the U. S. Which has been of course very anti crypto thus far there's just you know a lot of hurdles there but but we will get past those right and I think that's going to just change everything. You can't put it back in a box. So I would start with the basics, I agree you know some blogs, podcasts et cetera and uh yeah I start their awesome so one or two more questions for you here, you mentioned just from you know Pavilion and also from the accelerator that not only are you passionate about it but it's kind of this self fulfilling circle that happens right? You help someone out. Someone else here is that you give great advice and then more opportunities than continue to kind of come your way and it feels good to help and then obviously it can be helpful for you if if you get the right opportunity and can invest or something like that. So I'm just curious, I ask everyone this in the spirit of Pavilion is really being trying to help yourself by helping others. What's your number one networking tip or I guess you can take that as you will but number one tip for networking in your career. Yeah. You know it's weird. I generally despise the term networking to me. I think just the core of that unfortunately has connotations of something of a you know I'm out there networking to try to get some kind of personal gain, it's it feels transactional when it shouldn't be. Now, maybe it's just kind of reading of the word, but I think what people think of the term of networking and I need to do more networking, it ends up feeling a little self serving and I think people can smell that, you know, when you're, when you're networking right? Like a lot of the linkedin invites things like...

...that. It just, it ends up being sort of so transparently transactional and self serving. And so I like to think about it differently. And, and perhaps as a result, I actually haven't been good. I think historically at the concept of quote unquote networking, probably just because I don't like doing it in that way. I'd rather I'd rather just find ways to add value and provide something that's helpful to someone in a way that aligns just to an area that I'm passionate about, right? So it's like, it's hard for me to add value to people or things or projects if I don't have the expertise and that, thus I'm not passionate about it. And so the things I tend to do when I'm quote unquote networking, it's really about, hey, I'm really interested in providing some help or, you know, my opinion or some suggestions I had to a particular person or company and I will reach out really on that basis without expecting anything in return and for me, I get the satisfaction of, it's something I'm interested in. I kind of geek out on it, you know, in some ways and hopefully especially if they find it helpful and they're like, oh my God, wow, that's game changing for us, or thank you, or will you just rewrote our positioning statement, like in five minutes kind of thing, like when that kind of stuff happens, because as a side note, I love messaging, positioning, I'm just obsessed with it. I I see taglines and websites, I'm like, oh God, you really should rewrite that, you know, I'm so narrow and deep on that and I just love it so much. So I will offer up sometimes just, hey, I'll rewrite your positioning for you on your site or your value, proper, your brand idea, whatever. I just love doing that and I'll just do that, you know, for for free someone and if they're just sort of struck by that and I love it a I get a huge dopamine hit of satisfaction from doing that, it really is amazing. And then it usually ends up turning into some kind of relationship are like, wow, we'd love to have you do more, let's talk about that. And obviously as a full time CMO, I mean I don't have infinite bandwidth, so I'm not exactly doing it all the time every day, but it is an example, I think of, to me, the best kind of networking is sort of give before you get I I know that sounds kind of cheesy and obvious, but I really think more than ever for me, I found it to be true, Karma is a real thing. You know, what comes around, goes around and I suppose maybe from having some battle scars in my past where maybe I didn't operate that way or I to learn that the hard way, Maybe that's why I try to over index on that approach these days, right? Where I'm trying to offer some some value and it's usually around something that I'm, I'm genuinely passionate about. So I would recommend that. So, as far as tips goes, I would say, when you're reaching out to someone, whether it's linked in Pavilion, whatever offer something that's valuable to them, make it about them, not about you. And I think this is actually a good adage for sales and marketing. It shocks me that to this day, so many of the sales, emails, spam emails, market emails that I get and average that I get in Lincoln is always starts with. I'm this, I'm that we do this. Our product is this,...

...it's baffling to me that people have not learned yet that you know what it's not about you, it's not about your product, nobody cares about, you know, it sounds harsh, but it's like, you know what you need to do to get customers and to drive rapid growth is you need to talk about them, you've got to talk about, not just them and their pains or aspirations but in a way that resonates with them in a way that they talk about or think about their pains. So one of the things in my talks with Alchemists that I do is I talk about you know speaking your customers language right, make it all about them and their pains and specifically even use the words that they use perhaps internally to describe how they're thinking about their pain or their needs right? If you can really kind of right size to your sort of I. C. P. To your your customers, you know, unique needs in a way that they think about it and make it all about that that is how you're going to get customer adoption and you're gonna get responses and you're going to trigger that delight that says whoa okay wow these guys really really really get it and so it just it blows my mind that every day don't we all get these emails in our inbox every single day I would reach all the time. That's all about I am this, I am that our product does this so and so solutions has this technology, you know what I don't care about your technology or you or or whatever okay and now I'm being mean here but for all of this so it's like I know that sounds like such a simple sort of a pivot but it's fundamental and I tell you the companies that start with value and focus on your delight and the things that trigger that dopamine hit in your brain. Those are the ones that are that become the top brands in the world. You know Apple is a great example of this. I mean read some of their marketing messaging, they make it usually all about you like what this can do for you and your aspirations, what this new thing, gadget software, whatever it is enables for you. So it hits you in a visceral way and then they augment that brilliantly with the kinds of of lika, bubble imagery and you know, graphics that go right to your lizard brain to your subconscious, It bypasses your rational, preventing cortex centers of your brain and goes right to your to your limbic system and it is much like smell the same thing, it triggers your lizard brain sort of animal level want and desire. And again I think you know understanding psychology and even psychiatry, even having a basic understanding of those things hugely valuable for marketing and sales. People don't leverage that stuff enough. The combination of talking about the customer specific pain aspiration leveraging, imagery specific words in terms that trigger the sort of delight or pain solving thing in their brain. That's what makes successful marketing...

...and sales and so I'm totally on a tangent here but that's just an example of something that I think is so important when you're networking is how can you leverage that thinking and make it all about delighting or solving that person's problem that you're reaching out to not make it about you. Right, So that's, that's the biggest tip I would, I would give on networking and it definitely is not about the medium. So linkedin versus slack Pavilion versus right. I mean, it could be any medium, ideally. It's reaching them with a message that's going to resonate. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more and I appreciate you for being generous with your time and your wisdom and sharing that with everyone. If anyone that's listening wants to connect with you and add value to you hopefully, especially in the first in the first sentence, not use the word I um and make it about you. What would be the best place for them to try to connect with you probably, you know, linkedin is fine. I'm a linkedin, You can find me just make sure my last name is Sebastian with T I E N, not A M. That's a common thing. But yeah, you message me on linkedin. I'm also on twitter at paul. Sebastian, awesome. Thanks paul, appreciate you coming on. And again, everyone definitely make sure to check out. Check paul out on, on linkedin and twitter. Great, thanks so much for having me on, appreciate it. Thanks paul. Thanks for checking out that episode of the Pavilion podcast. You can hit me up on linkedin. My name is Tom Alamo and I am and a over at Dong. Let's give a quick shout out one more time to. Our sponsor of this episode was brought to you by drift. The new way businesses, by from businesses. You can learn more and get the conversation started at drift dot com. That's it. I'll be back next monday until next week. Get after it, say something.

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