The Pavilion Podcast
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Ep 9: Leading leaders feat Heather Foidart

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Ep 9: Leading leaders feat Heather Foidart

Book. What is going on?Everybody? Welcome to the revenue collective podcast. I am your launch host, JustinWelsh, member of the Los Angeles Chapter of revenue collective, and insideof these episodes we're going to feature ideas and conversations that are inspired by ongoingdiscussions within the revenue collective community across the globe, and I think one ofthe really interesting topics we've been talking and debating inside of the RC slack roomis how to best lead other leaders. Managing and leading frontline employees is onething, but there are extra challenges in different approaches to effectively managing other managers, directors, mvps, and we're going to cover that in a bit moreinside of this episode with our guests Heather Foud are, a two time vpof sales and customer success leader, most recently at Schmoop. Before we divein with Heather, a few quick notes. If you're out there listening and youwant to join revenue collective, visit Revenue Collectivecom and click apply out.I also want to thank our amazing podcast sponsor for June, outreach, thenumber one sales engagement platform. Outreach revolutionizes customer engagement by moving away from siloadconversations to a streamlined, in customer centric journey. Leveraging the next generation ofartificial intelligence, the platform allows sales reps to deliver considers distant, relevant andresponsible communication for each prospect every time, enabling personalization at scale that was previouslyunthinkable. I am pumped to jump in with Heather Foud Art, so let'sget the episode started. Our guest today is Heather Foyd Dart. Heather hasfive years of executive leadership experience. She's a two time vp of sales andcustomer success and she recently joined replays as a sales coach. Replays is anon demand sales coaching service for inside sales teams and prior to that she wasvp of sales and service at an Ed Tech Startup seex strategist at Oracle inleading the sales and customer success functions at share works through their acquisition by MorganStanley. Heather, welcome to the show. We were really happy to have youAustin to be here. Thanks so much. Justin you are welcome.So I just talked a bit about your recent background, but I always liketo start out by learning a bit more about how our guests got into theleadership world. Can you give us the Heather Career Story? Yeah, I'dlove to. And some originally from western Canada and I always like to,you know, get that out of the way at the beginning in case youcan hear a slight bit of an accent in my voice. And so,you know, after our graduated high school, like most people, you know,I needed a job and so I was a surfer for all of eightweeks. Maybe the shortest career as stint that I had when I had acustomer come in and she asked me if I'd cons that are, you know, joining her firm, potentially as an office administrator. She had an immediateneed, asked me to come by at the end of my shift and thatwas that. You know, no interview. I went over there, she gaveme a tour of the office and we start of hit it off rightaway to somebody I really respected. And so the business is a chired abouta year in after I started by company called Canadian Western Bank and I eventuallyended up staying on with the Bank for eight years. Really I leaned into, you know, every growth opportunity ran towards solving any problem I could goingto college at night, you know, eating bags the chips for dinner.It was definitely not a glhammer as time, but I eventually worked my way from, you know, operations to account management, got my way into aleadership. Really loved that and then eventually just found my calling from a salespoint of view. I loved working with our customers, I love solving problemsand that was where I had my first stint as a director of sales.That is a really, really interesting path and you know, you don't oftenhear that type of story right, where someone starts as an office administrator andworks their way up to director of sales and then becomes a VP of sales. You mentioned leaning in. I think being a problem solver is really important, but what other than sort of leaning...

...in and solving problems do you thinkit was about you that allowed you to navigate from sort of this office administratorpath all the way through to the leadership team? Yeah, I think itwas really just stepping in. I've noticed throw of my career a bit ofa pattern that there's kind of two types of people. You know, alot of people want to work on those projects that might be you know,glamorous, they have a lot of recognition, and then as the other kind,who are really just there to do, you know, excellent work. Theyhave a growth mindset, they're there to learn, and I really thinkthat those are the skills that I packed into you know, I was alwayswilling to go and solve some of those problems at work on those projects that, you know, maybe weren't sexy, maybe they didn't have a lot of, would say, like recognition, and I think that's really was was thekey there. You know, throughout that kind of eight year sin those justreferencing, I did a little bit of compliance or reviewed contracts, I didsome audit work, nothing terribly exciting, but they were problems that were importantto the business and I was always there, you know, willing to put myhand up. That's awesome. I love that. I think having that, that sort of mindset is so crucial, especially in some of the earlier stagecompanies that I see leaders at. You know, when we get in, even regardless of what your title is, there are so many different opportunities towear different hats that I love when I see people take advantage of that. So I know that when we were chatting in the revenue collective slack channel. There was a lot of conversation around today's topic, which is really leadingleaders and before we dive into that topic and learn more about it, I'dlove to understand why this, in particular, is something that you're really passionate about. Yeah, absolutely. So the SIS this concept of, you know, building a following or a follower leadership. I think some people talk about thisas transformational leadership, and it's a topic that I'm really passionate about becauseI think, you know, there's been, you know, thousands of books writtenon the topic, and I mean there's no secret sauce really. Ithink that there's a lot of actionable things that anybody can do to build theirfollowing and, you know, to be perceived by the people that they're leadingand managing as, you know, being confident and some at someone admirable andsomebody worthy of, you know, encouraging and inspiring others to follow. Andso it's a topic, you know, I spent a lot of time kindof thinking and, you know, writing about and talking with other leaders about. You know, I believe that transcend sales as well, and so,you know, any form of a leadership, but I love working with kind ofthat next generation of leaders and working through, you know, some actionablehabits that they can master. You know, I think anybody, because you know, the ability, if they put the effort into it, you know, to build a following as a leader. That's awesome and I think you knowmost of us who have been VPS or even in the sea sweet level, or we've let me know, we've led people in leadership roles. Whatis follower leadership in and you mention actionable habits. So maybe you could tellus a little bit in your mind what follower leadership is, and then itwould I would love to understand some of those actionable habits that you can,you know, develop to be perceived as competent or admirable and really encourage thoseothers to follow you. Yeah, absolutely. So for me I think it's simple. So a follower leader is somebody that others perceived as being competent intheir roles, some an admirable so somebody with integrity, you know, therespect and something that really encourages others to follow along. And so I thinkwhat really sects these leaders apart is that they've build their followership by inspiring othersand by really making the people part of it the heart of their business.I think everybody's potentially worked with a leader or observed the leader whereas you know, they want to be a great leader, that they hate the people part ofit right, and they like everything about leadership, ex o people said. So I think you know, there's really four things for actionable strategies Ithink that any anyone can master to build, you know, the way that youknow the people that you're trying to inspire relate to you. And so, you know, let's dive into what those look like with the first one. And so the first one is really building credibility by being relentlessly reliable thatyou know, are you somebody who makes commitments and follows through as it,or are you somebody that you know, on unconsciously makes, you know,offers of you know, your time or...

...your resources, but you fail tofollow through with action? So an example of that might be, you know, I know Justin loves drinking, you know IPAs. He tells me he'scoming over to Scottsdale, where I'm located, and you know, I say,Oh, like there's a best brewery in town, like you have tomake sure you go there and check out like these three IPAs. But yeah, I got to go check them and you and get back to you onthat. And so, you know, being relentlessly reliable and me building credibilityin your eyes would be me remembering to follow up and send you that recommendation, to send you that list of Kys, and doing so in a timely manneras well. Because really what that signals to people is when you failto follow through on those really low stakes commitments, it's chipping away your credibility. You know, even though they seem inconsequential. The rest are recommendation.You know that kind of thing. It's critically important that they know that theycan rely on you and the moments that matter. Heather, do you do? You might if I ask about reliability here, because to me that onejust stands out right away. And one thing, one thing I often wonderin I struggle with it myself as a leader, is how do you strikea balance? So when folks who are you're leading, are coming to youon our consistent basis and in you're saying I'll do this or I'll do that, how do you make sure that you don't bite off more that you canchew so that the reliability doesn't go out the window. I love that youask that question because I think it's so important. You know, it's beingmore conscious with the offers that you're making. You know, so it's you know, if you're offering to make time. It kind of leads into the thesecond bullet point I kind of wanted to talk about a little bit here. For your the team that you're leading, it's really being fully available and presentin the moments that you scheduled, and that's really it sounds easy onthe surface, but I think it's actually really difficult to do and it kindof builds on that concept of reliability. You know, I think for alot of new leaders it's really understanding, you know, what is the differencebetween being available and being assossible? You know, so accessibilityy to me meansthat you can reach me, you know, send me a text, you know, shoot me, shoot me a message. You know I can getthat. You know that this kind approvals done for you, but that doesn'tmean that you have my full time and attention. I'm not committing that timeto you. I'm just saying that I'm accessible. If you need me,I'll get it done. But being available means that you have zero distractions,that you're going to be fully present in that moment. And what becomes reallydifficult about that, and kind of to the point of your question, isthat it requires you to run through your day with flawless execution. Being latealso chips away a credibility, and so you know what I'm in a oneononewith one of my employees, for example, I've got thirty minute scheduled. Itmeans, you know, being aware of the time, you know setan alarm if you have to, but at that twenty five minute mark it'ssaying, okay, we only have a couple minutes less. Is there anythingelse that you need for me? And if there is, maybe you haveto schedule another time. To go into that point because most likely, asall leaders are, generally your back to back throughout your day, so thatyou know flawless execution and time management is really critical to this point of reallybeing able to be fully present in the moment you've committed to. I agree, like I'm a guy who's on time, like I'm a I'm a time person. What do you do when you've got that flawless execution mindset. You'vegot that backtoback calendar. Your leader and someone who you're leading is in honoringyour time. They're not honoring your availability. How do you wrecked that or howdo you coach to that? Is it? Is it just stern?Is it just addressing it? How do you do that and you in yourwork? Yeah, I think it's not. Unlike, you know, when we'rerunning a sale cycle with, you know, an important prospect, youknow, we get into that meeting, you know, we confirm kind ofthe time of the onset at the beginning and we stick to it. Ithink it can be as simple as that. Right like, you know, ifyou agree to you know, an agenda sort of at the onset oryou know the things that we absolutely need to cover in our time together,it's really just being forthcoming about the communication around it. So, you know, we have thirty minutes today. We have to get through these two thingsthat you know and if we have any...

...time left, you know we canadd anything else. So it's really just managing expectations at the onset. GotIt. So building credibility by being relentlessly reliable, being fully available and presentin the moments you've scheduled. I think you mentioned there were four things.What are number three is and four? Number three and four for you?Yeah, I think number three for me is not being above anything you askothers to do. And you know what I mean about that. It's notreally about doing their job for them. It's about never really asking something ofsomeone if you wouldn't do it yourself. A good example of that is,you know, you give one of your employee some coaching and you say,you know, you got to make sure that you're paying attention to the details, but then you missed the details yourself. So it's really just having a heightenedawareness of that. You know, another example of you know how thisthis might look at a sales organization. I know for US cash flow istight. You know, we had to freeze a lot of our budgets just, you know, as relates to the recent crisis, and so we didn'thave any cash to be running any fists or competition. So one of thethings that we did is we did a call B Lisz and the s fifthfor the winner was that the person who booked the most number of qualified meetingswould get their leaders time to make some calls on their behalf to their book, a business, and it was just a ton of fun, but itreally was kind of living through to this value. Yeah, it's, youknow, not being above anything asked others to do. You know what Ithink that's just a simple example of that. Then that's that's I got to askbecause this just really, it really piqued my interest because I don't know, have you caught the the series that everyone's watching called the last the lastdance on ESPN with Michael Jordan? No, I haven't, but I've heard aton about it. Well, he's he says something during the documentary wherehe says, you know, I never ask my teammates to do something thatthey know that I wouldn't do, and so that stood out as as areally, really critical piece of leadership. But on the other hand, he'san Asshole, he's a complete tire, he's a complete tyrant, and Ithink what we're seeing is a lot of leaders look at this and watch this, I'm seeing it on twitter, talk about how great this leadership style is. How do you think of tyrants? How do you think of the folksthat run their teams because they do it fear based? Is that something thatyou think can hold up in the business world the way it does, youknow, in this special on the basketball corridor. Is that? Is thatthe complete opposite of what you think follower leadership is? For me that's thecomplete accident. Personally, I know it. Certainly I've experienced, unfortunately, myfair share of tarrent leader than it's something I definitely tried to evaluate.Whatever I'm looking at, you know, anything that I'm going to, youknow, participate on. But for me it's sort of opposite of, youknow, my personal leadership ethos, if you will. Yeah, that thatfear based culture. I think the problem with having a fear based culture tome personally, is it discourages people to take any risks, YEP, orto make full decisions. And if you're not willing to make any risks,I can't see how you can have innovation. And so I think that's kind offundamentally the the challenge with any type of fear based culture. I'm anagreement with you. I'm watching this special and I'm really enjoying it and it'sreally fun and it's great to see a great player, but you know,watching people talk about it online about how that's how you have to think andhow that's the mind that you have to have. and Oh that's how Imanage people. To me, is the opposite of leadership. So it's interestingto see how different folks in the technology or the startup world perceive leadership indifferent ways. I love the follower leadership mentality that you're talking about. That'show I think about leading my teams. So, you know, credibility bybeing relentless, real, reliable, being available and present, you know,doing things, you know, not asking anyone to do something that you wouldn'tdo. And you mentioned there was a fourthing. What does that last pieceof follower leadership? Yeah, and so for me I think it's about holdingothers accountable privately, but really celebrating successes publicly. And so, you know, it's the cartner rule never to take credit from, you know, otherpeople's ideas, but it's really important that you know, share and celebrate successesand learn and grow from failures. And...

...that's kind of what we were justtalking about, right, not having that like fear based culture, but it'salso being somebody, as a leader, who saves others. So never allowingsomeone to fail publicly like that is the worst feeling in the world I have. This happened to me one time. It was absolutely brutal. I wasa pretty new employee and I was doing a really big presentation, was reallybig deal, and I had a training coming up. So I thought,Oh, you know what, I'll do a dry run of this presentation thatI need to do in the context of this training, and so I stoodup in front of a group of tears. You know, I again I wasbrand new, but it was really important to me that, you know, I did the bold thing and I kind of perfected my pitch right awayand I had people absolutely just kind of rip it apart in a non kindof productive way. And my manager was in the room and I feel like, you know, I that was a definitely a chip on his credibility inmy eyes. So just kind of allowing me to you know, what feltlike a public failure, it really her right. It was something that they'rekind of starred me. You know, I knew that he wasn't going tobe somebody who would save me kind of publicly. You know, you needto be able to save your employees from embarrassment when you see it happening.You know, and this is the the behavior that's going to set the exampleculturally that it's a safe environment, you know, to innovate, like wejust talked about, and you know make the size of action without fear andyou know take bold risks and you know do that dry run, even thoughyou might not be a hundred percent ready anyway. Now, that's that's that'sgreat. And you know, you mentioned you mentioned something really interesting. Yousaid holding people accountable privately. Now, I always believe that you should dothat as well. One thing that I've struggled with is when I go tohold people accountable privately, ninety percent of the time it goes really well.Ten percent of the time, you know, I'm managing or coaching someone who doesn'twant that tough feedback, who is, you know, insulted by that toughfeedback, who doesn't take that feedback really well. What do you doin a scenario like that? Can people be coached out of that who arelooking to further their leadership? Tu Yeah, I sure hope so. I thinkyou know, for me, I think one of the most important attributes, you know, in any role, particularly in a sales or sales leadershiprole. You know, it's really to have that growth mindset, and soso I think as leaders, you know, really kind of setting the tone atthe top of having a culture a feedback is critically important and I think, you know, sometimes you might have those individuals on your team who mightnot exhibit that openness to being able to receive and hear heart feedback, andI think that's always going to be a challenge. The strategies that I oftenuse those situations is really folk using on the bigger picture of you know whatit is that we're trying to accomplish, like bringing it back to the goalsand you know how we're going to get there together and having kind of ajoint, mutual, actionable plan, you know, to achieve that outcome thatwe're looking for. I love that. I love that. All right,Heather, we are nearing the end of our time together here, which meanswe will jump into one more segment that we do, and it's called ourquick fire five, and it's pretty simple. It's just five questions where we gettop of mind real answers from executive leaders like yourself. You Ready torock? I love it. Yeah, it's awesome. Right, let's doit. Awesome. Let's do it cool. So what is a book that hashad a major impact on your life? Yeah, so I'm an avigator.I love reading and one of the books that I love the most isa book called the monk who sold his Ferrari. If you see it,you have to pick it up. I know definitely that title stands out.And you know, sure thing that I really love about this book as youcan read it several times and always take something new away from it. Ithink I've read it at least a dozen times. So you know, oneof the quotes I love about it that's really standing out to me right nowis he says everything is created twice, first in the mind and then inreality, and I love that quote. Cool. Have you ever read thealchemist? I have. I love the alchemist. I do as well.That's a book that I can read and pick up something unique each time thatI read it. So I it's something that I just read again for theother day that I absolutely love. You have to check out this book.You'll love it too. I'll definitely check it out. The the title caughtmy eye. So that's really cool.

So you're getting amped up for thework day. It's, you know, Monday morning. And you're getting excitedfor the the upcoming work week. What are you listening to? So forme, I'm stuck in the S. I'm a s girl turn through andI love s hip hop. I Love S Ault music, but if Ireally need to get, you know, amped up, it's generally hiphop andit's in my headphones so the little guys can't hear it, because it's inevitablyfull of curse words, and so it's usually something like tribe called quest ordre or eminem or Nase, anything nines hip hop. I didn't, afterspeaking to you for twenty minutes, I didn't have you pegged as a Nazgirl. That's that's pretty that's pretty cool. I'm my hip hop Guy Myself.I'm I'm a nipsy Hustle Fan. He's the entrepreeur wrap. So Ilisten. I listen to him. He gets me excited to to go buildbusinesses. So awesome. I love to see the hip hop stuff. Whathas been your what has been your favorite experience to date so far being amember of the revenue collective? Yes, I've been a member for a yearnow and I would have to say it's actually just recently, within the pasta couple of weeks, I was invited to a finalist presentation and I've quitteda flack message just on the on the bench group asking if you know therewas any volunteers to sit through a dry run with me. I'm a big, you know, believer and kind of the practice makes perfect, but Iwould absolutely overwhelmed by just the responses offering to help me out. For thosewho couldn't help, they sent me a ton of words of encouragement. Igot all kinds of reason sources. It honestly just truly move me. Ifelt so fortunate that I had this kind of tribe in my corner. Itjust made me feel like I could, you know, accomplish anything, youknow, with the support of this group behind me. Awesome. What's somethingthat Heather Foyd art has a superpower in that I have a super power,and you know this one is a tricky one to answer. I think howthere is a work in progress and still figuring that out, but I thinkyou know, one of my super powers, I would say, is probably beinga connector. You know, I've been told lots of time. Youknow, it's just somebody to have an in network. I'm good at buildingbridges. I usually of that person who can, you know, put together. Oh Hey, you're looking to learn this, you should read this book, or Hey, you're looking to grow in this talent, you should meetthis person. Generally on somebody who connects kind of ideas together. That's great. I'm a connector myself, so I'm glad to have you in my networknow, as well as I'm glad that we're connected. Lastly, give theaudience you're sort of like life motto or a guiding principle that they can takehome with them today and use. Oh goodness, a life motto. Ithink it might be a little bit of what I just said. Actually.You know how there's a work in progress, and I'm a big believer and havinga growth mindset. You know, learning is never done. It's probablythe thing that I love the most about, you know, the sales profession isthat, you know there's always work to be done, and so definitelyjust encourage others to adapt that, you know, same kind of mentality ofjust being a work in progress and, you know, absorb bring any kindof growther learning opportunities that presents themselves to you. Heard it from Heather,being a work in progress is a good thing and I feel the same wayabout myself and and so that's that's great to hear that. You know,the learning is never done and I think that being a leader in sales,I'm learning something or some things new every single day, not just about theprofession but about myself as a leader. So I absolutely love that. Thishas been a ton of fun. Tell everyone how they can get in contactwith you. Yeah, I'm probably the best way of finding me on Linkedinand so hew. Their fight are very unique. Glass, name, flies, Dart and happy to answer any questions. Or are connect with anyone offline?Cool, and your revenue collective slack handle and my flack Haft. Ithink is actually just my full name, heather foyd are. And your isit Phx, or at the end it is that's right, cool, heatherfoid art phx. Well, listen, Heather, it is been great havingyou on the show. Thank you for talking to us about follower leadership.I have a feeling at the audience is going to really enjoy listening to thefour tips that you left there. I appreciate taking some time out of yourmorning to spend it with me and have a great, great sales week.Thank you so much. Justin what a...

...great conversation with Heather foyd are.Here are some things that I took away from our time spent talking around leadingleaders. The first is to build credibility by being relentlessly reliable. I lovedhearing that from Heather Foud Art. As a guy who is notoriously on time, I can relate to that. The second is to be fully available,in present in moments you've scheduled. This is something I struggle with and Isee lots of other leaders struggling with being connected, being available, being presentin those moments with your leadership team, not on your phone, not thinkingabout the next meeting. The third is to not be above anything that youask others to do. I think we talked quickly about Michael Jordan during this. I think there's a great scene in the last dance where he says myteammates knew that I would never ask them to do anything that I wouldn't do. So I love hearing that from Heather. And the last is to hold othersaccountable privately and to celebrate their success publicly. For great tips on leadingleaders from Heather Foud are. Okay. If you're out there listening and youwant to apply to revenue collective, either to our executive or associate program simplyhead over to revenue collectivecom and click apply now. That is revenue collectivecom clickingapply now. Thanks again to our guest Heather Foud Art. She was amazing. Loved having her on. If you're wondering how to connect with me,you can find me on twitter at Justin Sass. That's just an Saas,or simply by visiting my website at the official Justincom. Let's connect there andtalk shop. Cheers.

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