The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

Ep 248: Justin Welsh, The Minimalist Entrepreneur

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Justin Welsh, The Minimalist Entrepreneur 

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

This episode was brought to you by Clary. Drip, drip, drip. That's the sound of revenue leaking from Your Business and it's your CEO is worst worst night there why? In tough economic times, every drop of revenue counts. Revenue leak represents money you've earned that is somehow slipping through the cracks. Luckily, our friends and Clary have a purpose built revenue platform designed to help you stop revenue leak and drive revenue precision through the framework of Revenue Collaboration and governance. To learn more, visit CLARY DOT com. Slash thrive. Al Right, back for around two on the millennial sales podcast, one of the most downloaded episodes that we've ever had, Justin Welsh. Back in the seat. How are you, man? M I'm good, man, so good to talk to you again. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I just had your wife on Um a couple of weeks ago, so we got to introduce her to uh, the millennial sales community as well. So excited to uh, to get back and and do around two with you. Awesome man. You have the better Welsh, so I'll see if I can see if I can do with justice. Yeah, we're we're downgrading here, UM, on this episode here. You know, for anyone that that wants to learn more about you know, kind of your sales story, that the past episodes probably the best place to go. there. I want to spend a lot of time talking about the things that you talk about and write about a lot, which is really all around the creator economy and just different pockets within that. The first thing I gotta mention I just went on your linkedin before this, just because for ships and Giggles, wondering what your follower account was at nowadays. A cool two hundred and thirty two thousand people on Linkedin. A cool, you know, just about a quarter of a million. Uh, that's insane. Yeah, it's interesting, man, it's it's Um. It's been really fun. You know, I've been writing there every day, sometimes twice a day, sometimes three times a day, uh, for boy going on, I think, over three years, three and a half years, and I very rarely miss so it's really just, you know, it's about consistency and about, you know, hopefully knowing what what the audience wants to learn about and trying to give you helpful advice and tips and you know, doing that consistently on a daily basis has led to a really good, you know, follower growth and I'm I'm honored that people come onto the platform and care about what I have to say every day. It's still it's still pretty surreal when it happens, to be quite honest. Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing. Kudos to to the great work. Um. You know, one of the posts I saw from you the other day that I thought was super interesting, Um, was asking people about the first dollar that they made on the Internet and uh, for me that was in I sold the knee book about how to thrive in your first year of sales. I think it was in nineteen. And it's kind of like a mental unlock because if you've been in you know most people listen to this are are in sale or have been in sales, and there's something to learning the skill of selling a product or service and you get the onboarding and you kind of get bought in on the cool A. It's a whole different thing to sell something that you made start to finish, whether it's your time or, you know, a product you created. Um, do you remember the feeling of what that first dollar was from the Internet. I'd love to hear that story. Yeah, yeah, my first dollar was a consulting client. So when I left patient pop um my first goal was to land some consulting clients. So I had been talking about Um, you know, building Saas teams, building sales teams, building early stage startups. And when I left patient pop I left on August one of twenty nineteens, but coming up in my three year anniversary of that, I think August two. You know, I had built a pipeline, so I was ready to, you know, get some deals done. I had let some customers know that I was going to be ready to start consulting and and I think I wildly underpriced myself because I didn't not a price myself, you know, even though I had been a sales leader and built a big sales team like it's still there's still...

...some fear around. You know, what if they say no or I don't know how much I'm worth or or all that different things. So so that was my first dollar that I made on the Internet. The first time I sold a product on the Internet was the linkedin playbook back and maybe early and you know, I put as much work as I couldn't do it and made it fifty bucks and, you know, a bunch of people bought it. So I thought that was just the coolest thing that I've ever seen and you know, that changed my mindset. Kind of like what you said, there's an unlock when you make a dollar, especially when you don't do it consulting or coaching or doing what you've been doing for a living. You make it doing something else, selling a digital product, selling a SASS product, whatever it might be. It's like really opens your mind to what else you can do and it also unlocks confidence that you can do it. And as soon as you do it for the first time, you want to do it for a second, third, ten, the hundredth time, and you start to you start to try and figure out how to do that and I remember that experience and I still experienced that every day and I love it. was there any sense of Um, you know, imposter syndrome, or any sense of like needing to, you know, kind of overcome the thought process of you know, yeah, I know what I'm doing. Clearly, I know what I'm doing. I've been running, you know, sales orgs for for a good decade Um. But it just feels a little different, you know, creating your own product and then selling it. Did you have any sense of that, or is it pretty smooth sailing in the early days for you? I mean, definitely, definitely had a sense of that man Um, you know, but I think that's a good thing, right, like, it's very rarely, and I'll use this word and it's not the right word, but hopefully the listeners will understand what I mean. But, Um, you don't meet a lot of mediocre folks who have imposter syndrome. Right. Generally, imposter syndrome comes from doing things that you didn't think you could do before or putting you know, feeling like you're in an uncomfortable situation, saying do I deserve to be here? And that is generally driven by the fact that you're in a new and uncomfortable situation, and that's a good thing, right. So, if you have imposter syndrome, I always tell people like, don't be upset by it, right, I think you want to overcome it, but just know that it's a good signal. It's a good sign that you're growing. So I absolutely had that. I thought, you know, I had sold this product that had twenty linkedin followers and I was like, Gary v's got a million. What am I out here doing doing telling people how to use the platform? But you know, man, imposter syndrome is really easy to overcome when you remember that this is a journey and this is linear and when you're helping people who are one to three years behind you on the journey, you got to remember that you're not an imposter. Right. I'm not selling my product to people who had a million linkedin followers. I was selling to folks who had five hundred or a thousand and wanted to come onto the platform understand how to unlock some of the benefits of the platform has when you start growing on it. And as I constantly reminded myself of that, it became easier and easier to remember I'm not a quote unquote expert. I'm just helping folks who are behind me on the journey, one rung below me on the ladder, and that's how I sort of think about impostor syndrome. Yeah, that that was a huge unlock for me. I quote you on on that. I feel like weekly where people ask for advice and I say, you know, I heard Justin Washer or saw you wrote something around. You know, just help the two year ago version of yourself. You know, and there's thousands or tens of thousands or maybe even millions of people in that exact position that you know. If you're an a e there their strs that want to be a ease. If you're an str there's hundreds of thousands of people trying to break into tech. If you're in a position like you, there's a lot of folks that you don't want to be Solo preneurs or want to get away from the rat race or whatever it may be. There's there's always someone behind you trying to get to where you are Um and you know, if you kind of just distill the information that you have in your head and your journey, you can help out a lot of people and you can make a good living from it. Yeah, for sure. And I think, like you know, part of what you need to do, or or maybe not what you need to do, but part of the strategy or the process, is to figure out is to uncover what I call knowledge blindness, and knowledge blindness is when we do things so many times, so...

...frequently and it's such, you know, a high performing in such a high performing way that we forget that at one point we didn't know how to do this particular thing. And when you forget that you used to not know how to do it, you assume that everybody else knows how to do it as well. So, you know, people always ask me like how do I go out and make a dollar online or start making money online? Um, before you develop your skills or monetize your skills, it's actually really important to sit back and identify the skills that you even have, because we forget about the skills that we've acquired over the course of our career and again, we assume everybody else has those skills. But if you talk to folks who are two or three or four years behind you in your career, in life and whateverything they're trying to do, you will soon realize that the things you take for granted are worth a lot of money to other people. And so that's what I write on, you know, twitter and Linkedin all the time. There's just a thousand bucks sitting on your Google drive right now that you don't even know about. It's just something you have that people will gladly pay a thousand dollars for. And so if you can uncover what those things are, it gives you so many more opportunities to go out, identify, develop and monetize the skills and expertise that you already have. Yeah, it feels like it's just a mental block for most people more more than anything else, I think in general, I think especially folks in our General Age Range, our general generation, see the opportunity. They see people like yourself and thousands and thousands of others that do similar things, Um, you know, creating their own company or creating their own wealth online, breaking away from the traditional kind of corporate model. Um. So I don't feel like it's a lack of education for the most part. It just feels like more of a fear based thing than anything else, like a mental block. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think it's protection right. So like, Um, you know, if you don't put yourself out there, if you don't try, there's always the idea that you can do it someday and that gleaming picture of of hope and of you know this, this positive future, still exists. The moment that you try and you realize that it's difficult, that illusion become shattered. And so suddenly you're you're recognizing, okay, I no longer have this dream in the future, I have this reality which is happening to me right now, and so some people don't want to shatter that beautiful illusion. But if you do, you can take it from a difficult present state to working really hard at it, to unlocking some of the things that you need, like that mindset, like that knowledge that we just talked about, and pretty soon it's like any other job. You know, you try, you practice, you analyze, you iterate, you repeat, you talk to customers. It's like building a company, except generally it's just you. Yeah, you, you've kind of Um, you know, with the timing of everything, and I know you launch out on your own summer of two thousand nineteen ce beat covid to the punch Um, and the last time we talked, I think, was, you know, later in Um. So there's a lot of, you know, layoffs and people doing a lot of different things with their careers. Just generally speaking, from your lens in the last eighteen, twelve, eighteen months, have you seen a lot of people make this shift? And do you think that that was covid related to folks like Shit like I don't have the security that I thought I had at this company and I want to do my own thing, or I'm realizing how precious time is, or my family and I want to have more freedom. Have you noticed that as a major shift, or do you feel like it's just maybe that's a bubble that is just in my head? No, I think. I think for sure. I think that Covid, covid did a lot of things right Um that I think we were actually on our way to and it's sort of just accelerated it. Number one is it. It gave everyone the idea that remote work is possible. And as soon as we realize remote work as possible, I think a lot of people realize how much they enjoyed spending more...

...time with their family and friends and once, once that was there, their goal has always been, or not everyone's goal, but some, some folks goal is to get more of that quality time. And then the problem is also folks got laid off, so suddenly you're at home a lot more, you're not making as much money and sometimes you're thrust into a situation where you have to build something just to survive. And a lot of those people regain their jobs, found another job in sales, whatever it might be. But I saw the writing on the wall and said, okay, I don't want this to happen to me again. I want to be able to leverage remote work, I don't want to get fired, I want to have money in the bank. And so they saw an opportunity, when they're at home, to use some of that extra time at home to go out and build their first side hustle, their first revenue stream, and they recognize that potentially, by cutting some expenses, potentially by not having as many expenses going to work, that maybe they couldn't replace the income at their job, but if they could get seventy or eighty per sending the way there, they can actually live a relatively similar lifestyle but with a much higher quality of life, being with their family, being with their friends, being with their kids, being able to take trips and vacations and work from wherever, especially if they're able to build their own thing. The flexibility and optionality is incredible. You know what? What drives me to keep doing this is I don't want to go back to work in the traditional sense. I don't want to ask for vacation time, I don't want to have to have a Saturday meeting or get a board deck ready at midnight. I want to be able to pick and choose how I spend my time and, Um, you know, once I realized that I could do that, there was no way I was going back. Knock on wood. Yeah, yeah, I love that and it doesn't seem like it. Um. The last time we chatted we went through, Um, you know, how you structure Your Day and your week, and in a pretty thoughtful manner. I remember you were talking about, you know, Monday and Friday were more of like creative days. You did a lot of writing, Um, probably some you know, creating for the different playbooks that you put together and products, and then Tuesday through Thursday was more of consulting calls and coaching calls and things like that. Um. Is that still pretty much the track for you, or have you switched that, that game plan up at all? It's totally different. So, you know, one thing about Solo preneurship and working for yourself is you you kind of want to switch it up right like if these can get really stagnant if if you don't. So what I've done now is I've actually shut down most of my Sass advising business because I'm three years out of the game. I haven't been in the SAS company for a long time. I still take clients if they fit a very, very particular I C P um, but I hold very few clients, two or three clients at a maximum and we only meet once every other week. Mostly the way that I make a living is through digital product sales, subscriptions, my private community, one on one coaching with creators. There's a few additional sponsorships, affiliates, things like that Um, but right now what I've I've done is I've distilled my my work week really down into three days where, uh, Tuesday I start by writing my newsletter, which I I publish every week. It's a practical and tactical newsletter. You learn how to do something to grow your audience or business in less than four minutes. Every single Saturday, I generally write that on Tuesday. On Wednesday I take that newsletter, I break it apart and I create content that helps support it. So I'm out there creating content for twitter and Linkedin, sometimes instagram. On Thursday I'm generally editing my newsletter and making sure it's all ready to go. I'm usually turning it into a twitter thread and then I'm done. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Monday and Friday. Those are days that I can use to do whatever, go out to lunch with my wife, take a long vacation, but oftentimes I'm building another product or UM writing to my email list to see what other things I'd like to see me build. I have optionality and using those days as I see fit. And, like I said, sometimes I work, sometimes I take them off. But you know, every once in a while four day weekends really nice, but sometimes having two full days to drive a new product home is just is nice. So that's that's...

...how I flex my time. Now interesting. Um. So how do you personally think about the dynamic between, you know, as a Solo preneurs? And I think there's a lot to be said for Um, you know, the salesperson thinking in the same line, or an entrepreneur? Um, you could go all five days, right, and you could just not ever take the four day weekend and just like grind out, you know, twelve different products, right, and you could take more coaching calls and do more for the community. Um, or you could say, you know where I'm at right now, in terms of the revenue I'm bringing in. Is is exactly like. That's per that's where we need to be. We're comfortable with that lifestyle and, like you know, I want to lay off the breaks. Like, how do you? Maybe it depends on the time of year or just where you and your wife are at or where you're at mentally, but how do you navigate and balance that out, because it feels like a slippery slope where you could always just keep playing them more and more game forever. Really. Yeah, I mean the candidate answer is I have a support system, right. So my wife is the most important person to me, you know, and as you probably know, we don't have kids. We have we have three dogs. But, UM, my wife is my support system. I have a therapist that I go to and part of that support system is all focused on keeping me zoned in on the things that matter. And so, to give you an example, Um, the lifestyle that I've been able to put together is what matters to me. That is the thing that matters. Spending time with Jennifer, spending time with our dogs, traveling to upstate New York or wherever we want to go on vacation. As you and I were chatting before for the podcast. That's the main thing, um. Now you need to make income to do that. Right, so, so. So don't let me fool you that there's not like an income focus there. There certainly is. But here's what I've found, um. It doesn't matter if you make two D and fifty thousand, five hundred thousand, a million or a million and a half dollars a year, because you're always gonna want more. And if your money driven in your solely driven by money, you'll never reach a point where it's enough. It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank, how much you make a year, it will never be enough. And my therapist reminds me of that every single week, my wife reminds me of that every single week and I remind myself of that every single week. So for me there's a baseline income that allows us to pair bills, you know, go do things that we like to do, and we like to do nice things. You know, I won't pretend that we don't invest and save for our future and over that I am not going to Um work an extra day to try and do more than that. I would much rather work less and make the same to support the lifestyle that I have. I'm all, I'm about survival, you know, I'm not about maximizing, I'm about surviving and I just don't want this lifestyle taken away from me. That's how I approach building this business. Yeah, I think there's a lot of folks Um, you know, sending that. You know that, whether it was covid or something else, it's kind of illuminated them, or whether it's, you know, reading the four hour work week or similar books, where it's like you don't have to do it, you know, the way that our parents did and our grandparents did it, and there's there's this option, and I think that's the tricky part is, and I think the same can exist if you're an enterprise sales rep right, you can go out and try to make a million dollars and and work a hundred hours a week, or you could hit quota and make whatever your ot is and then be able to travel, you know, a couple of times a year internationally or, you know, spend more time with your family or whatever it may be. And so I'm always interested just to hear, like how people think about that and rationalize that, and I think the support system is is is the right answer. It's huge. Yeah, and I can, I can speak very candidly about it because it's happened to me right like, Um, you know, even recently. I will get on focused, I will get back to maximizing revenue and, Um, uh, you know, being a...

...very honest and transparent person when you make more money. Yes, that feels good right, like it's nice to see more money coming to the bank. Like, I won't tell you that that that that's, you know, not true, Um, in the short term, but in the long term, what ends up happening, at least for me, and I can only speak about, you know, the type of person that I am, is it wears me down and it it grinds me back down and it it puts me back into the fear of potentially burning out, and so I have to readjust and refocus on the things that are important, and that's why having a support system, you know, having a partner, having a therapist, having my parents around, those things are really really important to me, because I feel like I've got a lot of different people who can provide me with a lot of different advice from a lot of different angles, and I'm really grateful for having that and very, you know, very, very thankful that, you know, I've been able to build that support system. Yeah, that's huge. And Uh, you and I don't think you've talked about this, but I mean therapy. I mean how how good is therapy? I mean, I think that's uh there. That's probably uh going to I've been going since, uh, like mid and probably the one of the top five decisions, Um, I've ever made. And I go every other week, every other Thursday, and it's just, Um, I was talking to someone about this the other day. It's just it helps you have so much more awareness over yourself, over the situations, over how you're thinking and feeling and why that is and Um, just maybe it's not for everyone, but at least for me it just makes me a better human being. Same. I mean, I've been going on in of since two thousand seven. So Um, yeah, I'm you know, I used to do it. I guess before it was maybe cool isn't the right word, but before it was more people were more open to talking about it. Um, yeah, I mean I don't find it to be strange at all. I find it to be just talking to someone who wants to hear about my problems and wants to give me their opinion on it, which for me is often very helpful because, especially when you're a Solo Preneur, you're in a very insulated echo chamber. Right. I've got Jennifer here, WHO's here all day, I've got people online who engaged with me on a regular basis, but that's a that's an echo chamber, right, and so you need someone from an outside with an outside perspective, and if you don't, you run the risk of putting yourself in a bad situation. Yeah, I'd love to hear you. Um, when you were talking a minute ago about you know that you can kind of feel yourself when you're say you're you're pounding the hammer a little bit too hard, so to speak, Um, and you can feel like yeah, it feels good, like I know I'm I'm making a lot of progress, but I'm also just like pounding myself down too hard. Um, I actually feel like, coincidentally, that that's kind of like the place I'm at today is like just a little bit all over. Like I told you, I moved across the country about two months ago. Uh, just feel like, you know, I'm trying to do a lot more with the side hustle and trying to do what we're talking about of like create, you know, my own income kind of on the side outside of my my career, and I just feel like there's too much going like too much on the plate. If I looked at my calendar, it's like, dude, that you're just doing too much. Objectively. So when you feel yourself do that, I'm just curious, like what do you like? Is the first step? You just look at the calendar and you say, Hey, what can I get out of here? That's just unnecessary um or is it something else? Yeah, yeah, it is. It's Um you know, I think first of all, there's a just an overarching thought process around how to spend your time, and that is, you know, the same thing you've heard from everyone. It's what you do moves the needle, and so it's finding it's finding out what's the eight percent that I'm doing that isn't as impactful as that, and starting with elimination. So I follow, you know, the eliminate, automate, delegate sort of mentality for for scheduling. So I try and figure out, Um, what are the things that I don't like doing that don't impact my business. Those are things that I can eliminate right. What are the things I don't...

...like doing that do impact my business that I can automate with technology? I will generally automate those things using no zappy or other other tools online. And then there are what are the things that I don't like doing that I cannot automate? Those things I will generally delegate. I don't have any employees, but I do have a virtual assistant who I delegate some of those things too. What is usually left over are things that I do like doing that do impact my business, and those are the things that I want to be spending my time on, and that is usually the creative work, the writing, the product building. That's the stuff that I do, the customer service emails and the you know, the writing back to people who want to ask a question, like I generally route that through My v a and everything else I kind of ignore, and maybe some people who are listening might find that to be a strange, you know, approach. But I wrote about this last week where I said I've got three D and fifty thousand followers on social media, even if two percent of them wanted fifteen minutes of my time. I'd work two D and eighteen consecutive days for eight hours a day just doing fifteen minute calls, and I think people don't realize at that quantity of you know, folks reaching out. It's it's challenging, and so most of that I route through my V A or technology. Everything else I'm laser focused. I'm zoned in tunnel vision on creativity and product building. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'd love to, Um, talk a little bit about the creative process, the writing process. You're writing quite a bit now. Um, the newsletter, which I can vouch for, is outstanding, Um, but writing a lot on linkedin writing blogs as well, probably more than when we talked last time, if I were to guess. Um. So talk to me a little bit about you know what, what's the process you have for writing and how has that potentially helped you just think more clearly, because that's always the takeaway from me is it's great to write and I'm glad if it helps people, but it also just helps me think better. Yeah, you know, for me, writing is a system. Like it's weird to use the word creativity and systems in the same sentence. Because I think that people feel as though creativity is very free flowing and I think there are some people who are free flowing creatives. They can look at a canvas and paint right, they can sit down at the piano and play and Um, that's awesome. I am not one of those people. Uh, you know, I'm like a writer who, you know, if you look at movie scripts, they all follow the same system and process, right, so even creatives who write movie scripts need a system and they need a process. So I have essentially a nine step system for creating my content. I start with step one, which is idea capture. So I actually schedule out on my calendar time to sit down and capture ideas. I do it on the fly as well, like using notion, which is one of my favorite tools. But I'll sit down, I'll read other creators stuff, I'll watch youtube videos just to see what pops up. My wife and I like to walk a lot. We always come up with ideas on our walks, and so really step one is just idea capture. Step two is really all about research. So I love to write something from my own perspective, but it's even better when you can support that with tweets, quotes, articles, books, blog posts, things around the web that you know really hammer home the point that you make. So generally, once I've captured an idea, I'll start doing research. The third step in my processes I start with my pillar piece of content, and my pillar content is my newsletter. Comes out every Saturday morning at eight am central time, and it's four minutes or less. You'RE gonna learn how to grow your audience or business, and that is a how to, practical and tactical, written the same way every single week so that you can actually learn how to do something. I hate when I read something and it's supposed to be practical and tactical and at the end I'm like, I don't actually know what to do with this information. So mine is like you read it and you apply it and that becomes my core piece of tent. My...

...fourth step is editing. I asked myself a series of questions. I reread through my newsletter. I could check off all the boxes to say, did I do these things well? Sentence structure, including the appropriate links, using visuals or necessary, so on and so forth. Step five and six are my really my promotional material. So step five, as I write my Friday promotional and what I'm trying to do is tease out the newsletter that's coming on Saturday to acquire as many subscribers as possible. My six step is Sunday to post newsletter. T S Day after the newsletter, I tell everyone what they missed if they didn't subscribe. So I try and acquire newsletter subscribers in the following Sunday. Step eight or step seven, excuse me, is I turned that newsletter into five pieces of content. I generally will turn it into a story, an observation, a contrarian take, a listical. I'll analyze it, break it down. I use those five pieces of content to schedule and distribute those on linkedin and twitter, you know. My eighth step is I turned that newsletter into a twitter thread. So I repurpose something I've already written and do a you know, a thread that I hope will go wildly viral and acquire more twitter followers so I can continue to grow my newsletter subscription. And then step nine, as I put it all into the piece of software that I used to distribute it, which is called hype fury. I schedule it up, I hit go and I'm ready to publish for the week. So that is my nine step process. Wow, I love it. For anyone that wants to create a newsletter content, uh, you might want to go a minute and a half back and UH and take some notes on that. I love that. There's there's another topic I wanted to get to with you Justin Um, before I hit you with a couple of rapid fires that I saw you post about in the networking vain and you you mentioned a story from Austin Belsack, the story of a couple of years ago. You know, he had seen you, if I'm not or maybe I'm paraphrasing here, but he had seen you creating some content. He was maybe a little bit further ahead or behind you in the journey, but but generally in the same ballpark. Offered you some some sort of advice. Um, I gave you some tips and then you created kind of this back and forth relationship over time where it was it was not uh, you know, how's the weather in Nashville? It wasn't a hey, can I pick your brain for fifteen minutes, because clearly you don't have the time to do that with everyone that asks you. Um, but he lead with value, Um, and then you probably, you know, returned the volume with more value for him, either at that time or later. Um, and then it created a really fruitful, you know, relationship from there. Um. First of all, I get the story right and second I'd love to just hear you expound on that in the thought of like hey, we're all as salespeople, as potential entrepreneurs, want to be entrepreneurs, like we want to grow our network, we want to do it hopefully thoughtfully, um, but I think sometimes we move a little too quickly for our own good, uh, myself included, sometimes, and I thought it was just a really great reminder of how to go about it the right way. Yeah, you got it right. You know, Austin reached out to me, I think in in d m to me and was like hey, man, you're putting links in your linkedin put. So I was brand new to writing on this platform. He's like that doesn't work and I was like, Oh, I didn't know that, and he's like your writing is really good. Here's like here's a PDF, uh, this copyrighting pdf you shared with me. He's like this has really helped me and I was like cool, this guy's got a lot of followers. That's really helpful, and so we just started started talking on DM Um. I used his PDF. It worked really well. I was like, Oh, this is awesome, this is a really cool tool in my toolkit, and so I reached back out and just said, like, I don't know anything about your business, like how, how can I be helpful? And he was like, Oh, well, I'm growing this business with career coaching and all this stuff, and I'm like cool, I'm thinking about building a course for the very first time, and I was like, why don't we just schedule a zoom call for like I think it was monthly or maybe it was bi weekly back back then, and why don't we just jam out and like Talk Business? And he was like yeah, that's awesome. So we did that and then he was like, Hey, my friend runs a really popular podcast, like you should be on it, and I was like, Oh, this is a cool podcast, and it was just a lot of that back and forth. We turned that into an I p a beer trade. We like both craft beer nerds, and so it was. It was really great and I think there's a few different ways that you can kind of go...

...about doing that. I think one is just like Austin did. You lead with value in a way where you don't expect any reciprocation. Now you're hoping to get reciprocation, but if you lead with the expectation of reciprocation, you know it's just like salesman, like the prospect in this instance, can smell that right, they can feel that, and so you want to lead with true value. Once you've done that, like there's so many other ways to support people. There's permissionless support, which I wrote about, which is like a guy named Sashin Rom J on twitter took a couple of threads that I wrote and created these beautiful visuals out of them and shared them online and I was like, Oh that's that's amazing, and he and I started chatting online and I started supporting him on twitter and suddenly he started growing and and it's just that's another really interesting way that people go out and support folks. I think another one is just introducing people to a meaningful can action. So In my recent newsletter I've talked about, I was working on a project for Cohort based coaching program and Terry Rice, a guy I didn't know at the time and no now reached out and said, Hey, man, I know this company that does Cohort based coaching. I'm friends with their GM of operations. I'm happy to make an introduction to you. I think you'd be a really good fit there. I think they host a program really effectively. And that turned into me writing back and saying that's awesome, I'd love that intro and he's like cool, I'd love to have you my podcast and I was like yeah, that's that's awesome, and so he and I started a small friendship there. It's it's the same stuff you do offline, right. It's like online networking is just like offline networking. It's about reciprocity. It's mutual respect, it's mutual value. It's not a Memi me, it's not, give me, give me, it's not here's my life story. Can I talk to you for fifteen minutes? It's I'm helping you without the expectation of return, and if you happen to return it, great, if you don't, maybe you're not maybe you're not the right person to help m. So I've got to ask the King of systems. You meet these people over time. Right, and in Austin's case, if you have a ongoing zoom call, that's great, but let's say that that didn't happen. Let's say just chatted one time, got some value, but you're like he's a sharp guy, like I'd love to stay in touch with him. Um, I feel like as your career goes along, there's a lot of those people that come across and it's easy to forget about them or just not stay in touch. Do you have a system to stay in touch with those types of folks? Of course, yeah, I have a I have a personal crm Um and, like, I don't know, a lot of people will probably find that relatively impersonal, but, like, I've been in the workforce for nineteen years. If you meet five interesting people a year, you got you know whatever that number is right. And yes, some people will bubble up to the top. You'll naturally form strong friendships, people who are always top of mind. I don't need to remember to reach out to Kevin Dorsey. Yeah, I worked with them for a long time and we're friends. Right, I don't need to remember to reach out to Austin BELSAC anymore. Like I don't need to put them into a crm. But there are people who I really enjoy, I really like. I think are really brilliant and smart and I love talking to them, working with them, picking up on you know, figuring out where their business is at, trying to help them, seeing if they can help me. Just the same thing I just described, you know, with Terry Rice and a few other folks, and so I don't really want to forget about those people, and there's so many that I throw them into a crm and I make a Um, you know, a really concerted effort to reach out to them on a regular basis. I set up something where, you know, every every few weeks, I reach out with some sort of touch base, whether it's to say I'm thinking about you, how's your wife, how's your husband, how's your partner? How's your kid? Right Um? Or Hey man, this opportunity came across my plate and it's perfect for you or you know, I know that you were trying to grow on this social media platform. I found this really cool resource thought I'd share it with you. These are just really lightlift, heavy impact things that you can do to build a strong network. And, of course, the CLICHE statement...

...is your network is your net worth. I think that is one true, Um, and so I want to I want to make sure I pay attention to to my network and continue to foster those relationships. And so I do it just like a salesperson. Every few weeks. Yeah, generally it just depends on who it is. Like I have kind of rings right, Ring One, ring two, ring three. I don't actually have that, but you know in my mind I do, where it's like, oh, I don't need to reach out to certain people every few weeks. Some people reach out once a quarter, right, just to just to touch base. Other people were jamming on text every day. Yeah, and I don't need to put them in my crm because, you know, we're chatting on a regular basis. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's great advice. I've got a I've got a little google sheet where I do that. Could but but could probably make it a little bit crisper. Um. I'd love to transition hit you with a couple of rapid fires. I don't think I was doing this at the time actually when we were when we had our last pods. So let the people know a little bit more about you. If you're cool with that. Absolutely, Um. So, first up, we're big learners on the pod curious. Uh, any books that you recommend that it made an impact on you as a person or your career, any topic or any genres, fair game or anything you're reading recently? Yeah, a book I love is factfulness by Hans Rosling. Um, it's a book that just you know, the world is we feel like it's falling apart every day right there's a lot of extremism and political strife and weather problems and covid and there's just a lot of bad stuff happening right more in Ukraine, all these different things. Um, objectively, in in a data driven, in scientific fashion, the world is getting better and uh, when you're feeling really down, Hans Rosling breaks down the fact that the world's getting better and Um, I loved it. It's a long, Ye academic read, Um, but it's a great read and it leaves you feeling excited about the future of the world. And I think in order to be successful in business, and especially if you're working by yourself, you know, in your house every day, I think having a positive outlook is really important. So I love factfulness. My Hans Rossling Nice I have to check that one out. What have you been getting into? I'm not sure if you're a big podcast listener, a big blog reader, newsletter reader. Uh, maybe all of the above, but just curious if there's anything that you've been been jamming into recently or or binging on. Yeah, I am not a big it's gonna really people say that's terrible, but I'm not a big reader like and Um, maybe that's weird, but I like to read blogs and and things like that, but I don't read a lot of books. I don't listen to too many podcasts. But one blog I really like is josh specters for the interested. Um, that's Specter's SPEC t o R. it's called for the interested and he's just a really good curator of high quality information and he's also just a really good guy, so I like him. Um, there's marketing examples. Dot Com by Harry Dry, which is one of my favorites. It's just young, young guy really understands marketing, helps break down marketing in a really digestible way. And then Eddie Schleiner is very good copy, very good copy. Dot Com by and Schleaner, UM, really cool copyrighting website. Great job breaking down copyrighting into small digestible chunks that you can truly understand. I love those three Josh spectors for the interested Harry Drys Marketing examples, and Eddie Schleiner is very good copy what goes on in the Justin Welsh headphones. Music Wise, m HMM, a lot of nipsey Hustle um out over over your left shoulder. For those that are there. I used to live in crenshaw for a while and so you know, he was the local guy and you know, I like the fact that he's very was very entrepreneurial minded. Um, I learned a lot about being an entrepreneur just from his songs, which is kind of funny. Um, I love the national band of my favorite band of...

...mine and then I'm old Tom so you know, my my favorite band is third eye blind. Oh yeah, come on, jam jamming out to some third eye blind on a regular basis. and Um, you know my wife, her favorite band is Taylor Swift, so I have to hear that a lot. Um, so that's generally playing, you know, while she's you know, drinking wine and cooking dinner or something like that. So we listened to a lot of interesting things, you know, classical music. We just went to the symphony yesterday two days ago. So we listen to a lot of stuff. Man, between Nipsey and t swift and third eye blind. I mean you've got three like really major genres. They're just nailed down, depending on what the VIBE is. Um. What's something that you like to do outside of work to recharge? I like to go to the Y MC in the morning. Um, so I do some I've had two back surgeries, so I can't do a lot of like, you know, running or heavy lifting or everything. So I I walk on the Treadmill, I go swimming. Um, I like to walk with my wife, so we do five or six mile walks when the weather is nice. It's really hot right now, so we can't do that. Um, I like to go to the symphony. As I mentioned, my wife and I go to the Nashville symphony a lot. We really enjoy that. Um, I'd like to watch nineties and two thousands movies. So, like I've been on a real like Tom Hanks Meg Ryan kick recently. So I've been UH watching a lot of Rom coms and uh, you know, I like to go to craft breweries. So I'll travel around and, you know, try different I p a s and things like that and we like to travel, so we'd like to. You know, we travel usually every month somewhere domestically or internationally, and those are our hobbies. I love it. Yeah, I was talking with Jennifer a little bit about traveling. Any UH, top one to three spots internationally. Um, favorite trips of yours? Yeah, Um, Mexico City is probably my favorite. I've been there, I don't know seven or eight times. Um, Tokyo and Wahaca, Mexico, I love a lot, and then Barbados, I love it. I'll have to add those two the list. I've got the I just left the country for the first time since covid last week or two ago, uh, and went down to Mexico, and so now I've got the inch and now I'm like, I'm trying to get a bunch, a bunch of different spots off the bucket list. So off right, where'd you go to Mexico? Uh, it was president's Club, but it was down in Punta Meta, which was great. Have you been to Mexico City? I haven't, but I've heard the food is amazing. I think I've watched I don't know if it's Anthony Bourdain or someone similar to that uh an episode that really stood out. It looked at it looks like a great spot. Highly recommend I'll have to check that. I'll have to check that. Um, any phrase, mantra, quote, anything like that that you think about a lot that you hold near and dear to you, or maybe you're just not a quote person. But anything stand out? That's a really good question. Um, you know, my wife will get mad at me for stealing this because it's her favorite quote and she's downstairs probably can hear me steal this from her. But Um, the quote is smooth sees never made for a good sailor, I think. And essentially, Um, you know, you can probably figure out what it means, but it's you know, you've got to go through rough stuff to to become a really skilled sailor. and Um, I've always kind of kept that in the back of my mind when I have bad days or bad weeks or bad months and you know, it's just like hey, this is part of learning process. And I think a lot of people assume that everything is going to be real linear, just like growing like this, whether they're at their career or building their own business. And you've got to remember that the bad stuff is there for a reason. It's there to learn and to to avoid or or, Um, you know, find out why it happened, and so I love that quote. I always kind of come back to that one. Yeah, I think that's great. Um. My last one for you. Who is someone that you want to come see next on the millennial sales podcast? Mm...

Hmm, a really good question. Um, if I were to recommend someone on the millennial sales podcast, I might recommend my friend Ray Green. M. I think Ray's a really, really incredibly strong sales leader. Um, he's thoughtful, he's got the background and experience that would be really relevant to this podcast, but he also has struck out on his own just like I have, and, Um, you know, helps helps companies grow as a fractional sales leader and he's just one of the more thoughtful, deep systems driven sales leaders that I've had a chance to get to know over the last few years. And Uh, I think he'd probably be a really good interview. Um, I love it. Last time we chatted he gave me a couple of great recommendations with with Sonny and and Liz. So I think you've worked with both of them over at patient pop. So I'll have to check ray green out. Ray, you're on my prospecting list. Um, Justin before I let you go. We've we've dabbled a little bit to talk about it, but if anyone here is not one of the two people that follow you on Linkedin, I highly suggest they change that. Obviously check out your your newsletter, but where else? Uh, what's the best place for people to reach out? Or any other final words that you got? Yeah, if people want to learn more about who I am or what I do or who I help making, go to my website, real simple. It's my name, Justin Welsh dot m e, Justin Welch Dot me. My last name is W E L S H and I highly recommend they subscribe to my newsletter, the Saturday Solo Preneurs, and every Saturday at eight am central time, you'll get one tip that you can read in less than four minutes, guaranteed to help you grow your online audience or business. I love it. Justin appreciate you coming on, man, this is great, Tom thanks so much for having me, man, I had a great time. This episode was brought to you by Clari, the only enterprise system that's purpose built to run revenue. CLARI's revenue platform helps I down, fight and stop Revenue League, so you can achieve revenue precision predictably and reputedly. To learn more, visit CLARY C L A R I dot B Com.

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