The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 5 months ago

Ep 233: Attribution is Not Possible w/ Charlie Bateman

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Attribution is Not Possible w/ Charlie Bateman

Part of the "Is This A Good Time?" series hosted by Brandon Barton.

But hello everyone and welcome to the pavilion podcast. I am your host, brand about and you are listening to is this a good time? Sure, I have a billion members on the hot seat for fifteen or twenty minutes today and we hear their incredible story. Shows around on Thursdays. Hit subscribe and you do not, we will not miss hearing from our experts today. Our expert is Charlie Bateman. He's a director of strategic initiatives that growth collective and we talked about how attribution is not possible in marketing. Controversial opinion. This episode was brought to you by reprise, the only complete demo creation platform that go to market team's turn to when they need to create live and guided demo experiences. All right, let's see this episode one four teen. Is this a good time? All right, everyone super excited up Charlie Bateman with us. Charlie is currently doing a ton of things, but most, most of us time is spent as a director of strategic initiatives for the growth collective. Charlie, thank you so much for being here. Brandon, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. I mean, I've listen to some of these podcast actually be on here now. I feel like a feel like I'm famous. This is great. This is actually the first step to fame is being a podcast with good well, look, I'll meet no Philler. Jump right in. The route of fame starts now. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing today. I mean growth collective. You were just saying how you are certainly doing, you know, kind of more than Ye have a couple of things right. So, yeah, yeah, get into that. All right. So, yeah, great, strategic strategic condiatives at growth collective. You know, that firm is based to find and connect the world's best like growth marketing freelancers, you know, with venture capital firms, digital marketing agencies and, you know, startups and organizations to kind of get that growth marketing engine and flowing. But we're also owned by the same company who owns a company that I'd in the head of read a move for on board, flowcom, and so another product that's, you know, squarely involved...

...in the growth marketing space. It's to provide free trial and freemium analytics and business intelligence. So for software firms that have that free trial product led type motion, you know, we're a tool that helps them to understand their top of funnel leading growth indicators. And so I'm running all of our revenue team and everything, you know, for that firm as well. But so my life is like basically growth marketing right now. Right, you know, we want to figure out, you know, how we're companies growing, you know, one of the channels. How do we get users activated? How do we get them? How do we acquire them? How do we increase those conversion rates? So I'm doing that stuff all the time and it sounds like betic stuff. Are you doing any be to be as well, or is it any product led growth? I mean, I know all these things are creeping together. Well, actually, most of our business is be to be right now. So and at strategic inditiatives, at growth collective, my role is primarily creating the outbound motion, you know, working with venture capital firms. You know. So I'm actually working with venture capital firms across, you know, basically any time zone, you know, if any any VC firm that wants to have their portfolio company grow and grow quickly, you know, utilizing freelancers that are experts that understand those channels. So we actually have to have an understanding through like a third legged sale, like I have to sell to the VC, who has to then, you know, help me work through their portfolio companies and and vice versa. Right. So I'm working with startups and other organizations that are venture back and we're working back up to the the investors and to develop those relationship. So and that's been the lot of my careers in the BB side. But you mentioned B Toc. You know I've sold BBC. I've sold really high velocity, you know, BBC stuff. There was a time where I was selling like coupon books to college kids. Maybe there's no more high velocity than that. And you know, like a ten dollar coupon book to a college student. You know, those are that you really start to earn your sales chops, whatever you're doing, that kind of stuff toward a door. So at this point in time, definitely...

...more of more complex sales motion, a little more sophisticated. But yeah, you know, I was doing other types of BBC stuff in my crew too. Good. Well, get through, get get back. You know, a couple of years I know you'd spent a ton of time over at ECR. Yeah, youcrs. You know, tell us a little bit about some of the stops along the way that got you to where you are. Yeah, I know, always enjoy a kind of going in taking a look back. I feel like, you know, if when I look back and helps me understand a little bit of what's probably here and then how I can be even even better forward, because I a lot of times I remember like, Oh, yeah, I've learned this when I was there. So let's, you know, take a step back, you know, to the pandemic right like you know, they're in the February two thousand and twenty and a you know, left ecrs. You know, I was traveling a lot back carrying individual contributor. At that point, after being in revenue leadership, I was developing new markets, but I was also that first person. So I was traveling a lot. I have three girls, a wife, two dogs and, most importantly, a cat, and so I had to be here for all of them. And so I ended up leaving ecrs, but I was doing a consulting for a little while, Revenue Consulting, sales consulting at ecrs. I was, like a mentioned individual contributor, developing some new markets while also running there. I was a director of North American sales for a time running. You know, inside sales, customer success, our sales development team. I was also running our account management along with reseller and partner sales. We we three xt sales during the time that I was there and that wasn't a start up right. Think that's about that was a mature company that had been around for thirty years and I was taking over a lot of existing account business, existing reseller business, existing partner business, and the real challenge there was figuring out, hey, how do we grow whenever something's been maybe not in a growth cycle, like we've had a couple two or three percent growth year of a year, how do we turn that into thirty percent, fifty percent, sixty percent? It right? And so had to learn a lot...

...about sales, enablement, management practices, leadership. You know what it really meant to be a manager and a leader. You know, having counterparts, like who am I'm really working for and developing, you know, systems and processes so we could grow in scale. I noticed this one part of your resume where you talking about doing kind of some leadership activity through tiger teams. What the heck is that? Yeah, so it's just like whenever an important project to come up right. We we had to were small enough company. It's wall of headcount where we said, all right, we need this particular resource, this resource from this department, this resource from this department. So the CEO and my vp, you know, gave me the authority to say, Charlie, create the Tiger team and attack, you know, like all right, we need it. We wanted to move into higher education. So what do we need to do? I needed to you know, first off, I had to create the business plan, I had to create the marketing plan, but then I'll just say I needed, you know, this person from, you know, our software development team, I needed this person from customer from our support team, and I need this person from business development and I need this type of executive, you know, approval. And we would create these really small teams and we'd say, cool, let's attack these four features, let's let's run, you know, some motions in these marketing channels. Charlie, run this kind of sales motion and, you know, let's attack this within kind of a ninety, Ninety Day to six months cycle and let's really kind of learn really really quickly on can we develop a market from here? I like that created Tiger team and attack that's going to be my model internal like well, look, man, you know it takes it takes hard work but also luck to get into these kind of positions, and I wonder if you got a story from either that that's really relevant how you've gotten to where you are. Yeah, I love the luck question right because I think there was no more luck or serendipity than like being born. Like I've heard statistics about it's like a one at a trillion or like five trillion chance...

...of us even being born or something. But the fact that I happen to be born to the parents that I have, including my father, who was in the computer industry, from the time that I was could remember, I've had an I've had a computer since I was three years old. I'll be forty. That later this month actually takes my brother's birthday. So like it's a good reminder of, you know, birth and everything. So we've we've had computer since we were a little kids out I was taking computers apart at three, four years old. You know, I was the A v Nerd, you know, in my in my house, in my school's in high school and all that stuff. But I think that luck has kind of to take it back to my dad. My Dad was in international business development for software companies in the S. right. There weren't that many software companies in the S, and so he was trying to learn how to sell alongside I be am as a reseller, as an integrator. He was having to create multitiered service contracts, and so I was learning how to do this. How was learning this off when I was ten, twelve years old and, you know, asking him, he was telling me about long sales cycles and service contracts and, you know, seat licensing and stuff like this, you know. So I go to college and go into like it and business courses and I was like, Oh, I've been learning the stuff since I was a kid, you know, and so understanding how software worked and, you know, how integrations worked and I knew what an API was, you know, one thousand nine hundred and ninety six when we were trying to network our computers together in high school, playing quake to like, you know, we were you know, I was lucky enough to be in this like industry. You know, fre's a third party. So I just think that that is like the luckiest thing in the world. And so as I even progressed my career. I was never I wasn't in like software or technology until, technically, you want to call it, probably like two thousand and thirteen, two thousand and fourteen. I'd have been working professionally for fifteen years. But in every role along the way I was lucky enough to be like, oh, that guy's kind of good at knowing this software. Holy Crap, Charlie was able...

...to get these two software receptions talking together. Wait, how did he get that excel spreadsheet to a populated in here? How did he send out, you know, five thousand emails and an hour through this our crm? But, like you know, I was always trying to tinker and figure those things out. So I just think I got really lucky along the way of being born into a time with a family and a culture where I could figure out these like software and technology pieces, and that's played a big role of my success. On the way, I love it. Instead of ABC's it was ABM's. Let's. That's right. Well, look, you know, obviously so much of what you're doing professionally today is is helping other companies to accelerate without, without just shamelessly plugging growth collective like that. What's something what's something that you think is is a tactic that people overlook today that yeah, paying attention to? I think that, you know, there's a lot of talk around attribution in the marketing space, especially be to be even like enterprise account based marketing or other types of sales much. I don't think it really matters. There's so much talked about attribution and let's also, I think, correlate that or connect that with channels. Like there's I mean, I think I've put something on linked in the other day. I was like an old graphic that they're this company and put together like forty seven marketing channels that they're working through, and I'm like, I'm sorry, there is no expert in any one channel. There's no way that you're going to have attribution software that's measuring every single thing, every single customer touch point interaction. And so I think the tactic that I would like to talk about or just kind of mentioned on here, is that channel testing without the fear of attribution is something as super, super important. If you have the fear of attribution that you have to get a marketing qualified lead in order to keep your job. Sorry to be controversial, I think you should just go ahead to leave your job because there's thing, there's too many channels, there's too many things that need to be...

...tested, there's too many customers are out there to doing things. Eighty percent of the sales cycles happening before you even talk to a rapper or anything. So, like, how are we going to sit here and try to qualify and quantify every single interaction? It's not possible. So in order to be, I think, Nimble and accelerate things in today's market, you have to be fearless enough to to do channel testing. And, guess what, not every, but not every marketer knows how to, not that knows how to do channel testing in like in empirical way, but in a really rapid execution manner as well. Part of why I'm going to go ahead and plug growth collective. You told me not to. I'm doing it, but you know you do it because, frankly, like I didn't, I think I would be a not the world's greatest growth marketer, because I would get two in my head about like is this working, whereas you know, people who have like become real experts at testing channels, like they're able to determine without this like and attribution, how quickly it's working. Pivot, quickly, allocate dollars accordingly. Pivot, pivot, pivot. I think that's what we're seeing the best companies doing, especially in like whether it's enterprise or product led. I think those three four years now, brandon, we're going to go back and within the pillibillion community and say, like we're saying product led and we're saying enterprise, we're saying a PM. They're all blending together, they're all kind of doing a lot of different things. Now I think it's just going to be one homogeneous motion and you're going to have all these different me Gett interactions, all these teams sharing data and working together, and so the ability to test new channels quickly. Like I don't know how many sales leaders are on tick tock right now. You probably should think about being on Tick Tock at sometime soon. You know, it only gets double the traffic and time on site that facebook and Instagram have combined. So I'm not on there. You know, I'm on there just to look at like funny videos of my kids send me. But you know who can test that channel effectively for enterprise?...

BE TO B seller. You know those are things that I think somebody, as a marking tactic, should employ today to be ready for where that could be to two to three years from now. And you have to do that and of course there's no attribution it. I agree. I hope everyone stays off tick tock because I think it's the it's the best entertainment algorithm that exists today. It's a ridiculous somehow they figured out all I want is golf videos, watching people make shit, which I didn't know I wanted myself, you know, like you know borrowing out a bowl. I mean do it, you know very we're not going to get into my ware advices, but it's it's it's an incredible algorithm. All right. Well, look, you hiring it for anyone today, I imagine parted. Part of the job of growth collective is to help build teams, right, so it could be for your company or and or others that you're helping, right. Yeah, I mean that's it's it's funny, man like I've hired probably hundreds of people in my professional career and it can get it's one of those luck things along the way. I didn't I didn't know how that dot was going to connect I always think back to the Stanford commencement speed, that speech that Steve Jobs gave of like he dropped in on a calligraphy class and how does that connect the dots to Oh, putting in pretty fonts, you know, the you know, the Macintosh. For me, you know, Havn't going through the fire of hiring people when I was like twenty three, twenty four years old, having no clue how to do that. I'm thinking back of like wow, it was really hard for me as a new manager to find talent, to understand how to how to how to interview. And then fast forward, you know, when I'm running a you know, a sales function at a software company and we're growing really quickly, like I'd learned a lot from that. But even now I think about that experience of growing and accelerating quickly, of how I needed people for Growth, like I would have if I would have coulked, if I could rewind the clock five years and talk to that Charlie from five years ago who's kind of a dumb ass but you know, really was...

...trying hard. But you know, if I could talk to that guy, I would say, dude, don't be afraid to test channels. Don't be afraid to, you know, work with freelancers or contract employees, like. Yes, we all want to find absolute rock stars, the best fit for our company's long term, but you also have growth goals you have to meet. Like that, growth weights for no one. You need people and you know you want to. Everybody wants to find this diamond in the rough, this rock star. Well, you know what can we get? The still world class people. Maybe they want to do freelancing. Guess what, you can't hire them because they don't want to be hired. And that's where I think we are today, is that there's a lot of great people out there who don't want to be a full time employee and they want to do nothing but the awesome work that they know that they can do. And it's really fun and interesting now being in the position I'm at with growth collective, because I'm helping people getting hired all the time through the platform, while also building out our sales function along with my teammates Jacob and Felix, and so I think you know, going back to your question, what are we hid for? We're always looking for somebody who maybe has like specific vertical or industry experience, right. So somebody who might be like already working in the venture capital space. You know he's maybe had some you know, a history of working in the talent recruitment, talent management kind of space to you know that that's certainly a role that, you know, I'm on the lookout for for that type of person. Awesome. Love that. Anybody who you who you follow, who kind of you know inspires you that you want to give a shout out to in terms of the content they're putting out. Yeah, and I'm gonna I'm going to zag here a little bit. I'm not going to go completely non business right, because I think that what inspires me. Yeah, like I get inspired by certain business things. What inspires me is like, you know, who could provide a perspective on the world that allows me to think differently or allows me to maybe like canjeal some of my thoughts so I can really stay behind it? Somebody who my first recommendation is going to be...

...somebody who's wellknown, Karema Abdul Jabbar. I. I subscribe to his newsletter. I think that man has one of the most unique perspectives on the American experience that we could possibly you know put together. I mean he's literally one of a kind, right seven foot to you know. He's a hall of fame everything in this sport that we kind of idolize our sports heroes. He's an actor, he's been in Hollywood, he's an activist. He's transitioned from, you know, the streets of New York to, you know, La been across the country a couple times. He's got just a wonderful perspective on writing and he's not afraid to share a controversial opinion and he's been roasted for sharing controversial opinions for the better part of fifty years. I just think that somebody, and I really like to think that we can learn a lot from our elders who have held that wisdom in themselves and now sharing it with others. I think he provides a very unique perspective for us all. So I want to shout out his newsletter. And then, secondly, another one. Isaac Saul, has a newsletter called read tent or tangle. It's at read tanglecom. In today's highly kind of charged liberal conservative environment, he actually provides dual takes on current topics every day. It's my it's my favorite thing to read, and so he takes a topic of the day. It's usually about ten to fifteen minutes to read it. Here's what the left is saying, with attribution. He's got the sources. Brings the receipts to the table. Here's what the rights saying. Brings the receipts to the table, puts it, lays out there for everybody to read and then he provides his take and he takes really good feedback from readers. He Post about all the mistakes that he's made. He'll say this is my forty second mistake since I've started this. You know this newsletter, and I'd think that's like wow, somebody in the news as admitting a mistake. What a refreshing take. They're giving both sides. So Isaac saw wonderful follow on twitter, but also, I think,...

...a super important newsletter for today's climate. I like that we keep politics out of the plot, but if we're talking somebody who sees both sides, that's cool all right. Lastly, I'm very quickly give us a restaurant. We should be going to give me something great. North Carolina, man. Okay, North Carolina, I'm going to give you one that you just you absolutely have to go to it's. Well, again, shameless family plug for my brother. My brother's a he's in the brewery brewing operations at Brewery Bevana down in Raley, North Carolina. So all of my RTP people go down there and check it out. It is. They have a restaurant attached to it. Oh God, this is sounds here is a Bavana Vita. I think it's like dim some dim some Asian fusion. They at their own beer there and they have a flower shop in a book shop. So it's like this incredible one of a kind of experience. It really is like some of the best food. I think you never find a North Carolina, if not the southeast. I mean James Border, James Beard are winning, will board winning, you know, type of restaurant rights is all prices are approachable and it's something that you can get's got something for everybody. So all right, very bivana. Check them outain. We're checking it out. Love it, man, Charlie. Thank you so much for being on, cheering for you. Love what you're up to and we'll definitely be in touch. Mar thanks, Brennan, appreciate it. All right, that's the show. Thank you so much for listening. You love the show. Please rate and review in the apple podcast or spotify APP, send it to some friends and make sure to smash that subscribe button. This episode it brought to you by reprise, reprises no code. Enterprise Ready democreation platform that gives go to market teams of power to control the narrative of their demos and deliver custom product experiences without developer involvement. I had so much fun today. I hope you did too. Now get out and crush your notice.

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