The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

Ep 230: The New World of RevOps w/ Dana Therrien

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 230: Dana Therrien, Vice President, Chief Revenue Officer Practice at Anaplan.

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

But are every buddy. Welcome back to the pavilion podcast this is a show where revenue leaders get the tips, tricks and tactics they need to be successful in their roles. Before we get to today's content, let's have a quick shout out from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by raprise, the only complete demo creation platform that go to market teams turn to when they need to create live and guided demo experiences. Now let's get into today's episode. All, anybody, welcome back to the pavilion podcasts, where we talk about the tips, tricks and tactics that revenue leaders need to be successful in their roles. Today we've got Dana Tarry and coming from Anna plan on the PODCAST. Dana, good more than how are you? Good Morning Time. How are you? I'm well. Yeah, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. We were just talking about our respective cities. You know, out New England and in the Midwest, starting to get warmer summertime. So it's hard to be in a bad mood when when you finally get past the winter and and and get to the warm weather. Yeah, I live in I live in Maine, so we wait ten months of the year to get too much of good weather so we can get outside. So it's it makes it all worth it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, excited to have you on. We got we've got a lot to get into. I know you're really, you know, passion and spent, you know, a lot of years in the world of repops. It's something that has become, you know, it sounds like the role itself is really changed and in the way that, you know, companies are going to market with the rebops function has changed the lots. I'd love to just get straight into some of the content with you and start talking through, you know, at a high level, like you know, in terms of like roles and responsibilities in the Reb ops word. Like how have you seen that evolved over the last few years and where you seeing it going like as we move towards the next generation of that work? I first started paying. I'm a career sales operations professional. I started in sales operations back in two thousand two thousand and one with a company called a via and I ran their sales operations region. It back in that and those days they called it the cheap operating officer for the sales region. I ran the New England region and that that's where I where I got my start and I continue to evolve in that career. Eventually I landed with serious decisions and forest are leading their research and advisory practice and one of the things I really focused on was the the rise of revenue operations. I I just felt based upon my experience and everything that I've seen to that point, they weren't calling, nobody was calling a revenue operations at that time, but it felt like there was this conversion of operations resources across the go to customer functions inside of a company, and that was generally marketing and sales and customer success. And back then, this is probably back in two thousand and fifteen, two thousand and sixteen, customers success. It really wasn't like a separate...

...organization inside of a company at that point in many companies, and maybe in some it was, but sales operations, as they're often asked to do, was was asked to stand up an organization that focused on everything that would happen to a customer after the deal was done. I'm not talking about services, but I'm talking about ensuring that they were satisfied with the platform that there was engagement and that somebody was there to support them. So I think the rise of revenue operations, in my opinion, started back in two thousand, two thousand and sixteen, and it was really naturally happening inside of smaller companies, these these startups, where it just made sense for them to create a single operations organization that was going to focus on sales, customer success and what was traditionally marketing operations to ensure that there was unity there. And then, as time progressed, it started to find itself into the larger type companies, the more established companies, and that's where we are now. Back then, I started pulling information from linkedin. I think there were a hundred sixty people who called themselves sales revenue, who called themselves revenue operations leaders, directors of VPS, back in two thousand and fifteen, and today there's over tenzero. You can't count it on you on linked in because everyone's in calling themselves to this now. So going from a hundred and sixty two over tenzero and you know, five or six years, it's just obviously such a crazy explosion of growth. How have you seen in that timeframe? You know, the way that companies, you know, in terms of like roles, responsibilities, like how, though, how that's evolved over time, right in terms of like what those folks are doing on a daytoday and, you know, getting them into you know, whether it's strategic planning efforts versus all the things that are needed for for comp and, you know, working with you know, tools like sales forts and things like that. How have you seen that change? I have you seen kind of like different strategies from companies? In terms of that, I think what's inside of a smaller company, inside of a startup company, series Ab see, whatever they may be. They start off with a revenue operations function and leader and organization, and everybody that was in sales operations, marketing operations, customer success operations would be reporting into that one leader and they're they're responsible for ensuring that there's a seamless experience for customers from, let's say, quote, all the way through renewal. So that that's one group of customers and then or companies, another group of companies, would be the ones where carry cutting him. He was another analyst that serious decisions. coined the term a coalition of the willing, and it was the it was an agreement between sales operations, customer success operations and marketing operations, mostly between customer I'm sorry, mostly between marketing operations and sales operations, because they were the most mature functions. There was it. There was a tacit agreement between the...

...leaders of those groups to cooperate more closely with one another, and it typically started with hey, what's the definition of a league? And when does a lead become sales qualified? When does it become marketing qualified, and how are we going to track lead to to revenue or lead to booking at least. So it started off with that one project and then eventually they started to bring the customer success teams in there as well to say, well, what are we going to do about renewals as well? So I think in most larger companies people are calling themselves revenue operations leaders, but they're really sales operations leaders who have built this coalition of the willing and they're trying to create better synergies between those operations groups that we see today. And it starts off with between sales and marketing leads and between sales and customer success. Renewals. Yeo. So when I'm curious when you go in and you're advising companies at Anna plan, like, what are those conversations typically look like, you know, in terms of like what they're seeking you out for and and you know how you're actually like consulting on what they do? I just met with a company a couple of weeks ago in person and it's a multibillion dog company, been around along long time and everyone would know who they are. And there's a newly appointed at revenue operations leader there and she's assembling this team for the very first time. And what I did is I sat down with her and her team and I basically said, let me share with you what my experience has been. I've learned through trial and error in doing this myself and also working with other companies as they built up these functions. Let me give you some advice on some things that I've seen work. Number one, you need to have a vision for what it is that you're trying to create, and there's a there's someone that I followed. His name will come to me, but he basically said if you don't, if you don't have a vision for what it is that you're trying to create. Number one, you're going to fail. If you do have a vision and people aren't connected to that vision, you're still going to fail. So there's companies out there, there's leaders out there who think, I have a vision for revenue operations, I'm going to create better synergies between customer success, marketing and sales, but nobody new organization really understands what it is that they're trying to do or how they can participate in that process. So I said, look, let's define what your vision is, what it is that you're trying to create, and then all of your leaders here in this workshop are here to have a conversation about that vision. So in that three or four our meeting, we decided, I helped them decide, what is that they were trying to accomplish and what some of the key functions are inside of what a revenue operations group would be. So I just started with defining some of the biggest roles with them and probably the biggest...

...change that I've seen happen in what we used to call sales operations in now what we call revenue operations is the need for a leader that's solely responsible for strategy planning and rewards which would be sales compensation, and that's strategy compensation, rewards across sales, marketing and customer success. What's change is that was typically inside of the analyst group or inside of the sales intelligence, Revenue Intelligence reporting group, which is really focused on sales execution, pipeline management, pipeline velocity, forecasting, sales activity. You have to split it out because it's so important and it's so complicated and it requires so much resource. That's that was one of the big things that came out of it, and then definding the other functions inside of that group after that. So I've heard when you're thinking about like, you know, scaling this out to an order, I've seen a sales you know leader thought leader on Linkedin talk pretty frequently about, you know, the first hire, one of his first hires at a start up, but saying series a or series be company, is to make sure that there's a the proper rebops person, because without that he can't do his job as well as he needs to do as a crow or a VP of sales. Just STORI's like. I know it's yeah, I was curious what your take was on that in terms of, like if you were a cro at an early stage company, where in the process, typically would you want to bring in someone from a rerap opposition immediately? It's the first higher that you should make. You need somebody that's responsible for the business end of sales, somebody that can handle strategy planning and rewards themselves also managing whatever text act is that you're going to require as part of a company. Have some big decisions that you have to make. You need someone that's responsible for sales intelligence inside of that group, somebody that can help you with forecasting in and pipeline velocity and ensuring that everyone really understands what's happening there. Within that group. You also need someone who's responsible for sales enablement. The the the agreement between sales operations and sales enablement, and enablement also often reports into operations, is that the operations group is going to be responsible for the efficiency and then the enablement person's kind to be responsible for the effectiveness and operations. True operations. People tend to gravitate towards the the efficiency piece of that and forget about the effectiveness piece of it, the human side of sales, where you want to reins you want to ensure that people are probably trained, that they've been on boarded a properly, that they've got the tools and the instruments that they need in order to do their job more effectively. So those are some of the big functions. And then some other ones that I think about. Our our readiness, sales readiness, to ensure that any changes that are going to happen in the sales organization get executed flawlessly. That that means changes in pricing, changes in contracts, changes in product you need to ensure that they're the organization is...

...ready to be able to handle all that. And then the typical marketing operations and customer success operations function should also be part of that overall equation, whether formally or informally. Yeah, so that's so need that person. So you brought up, you know, opposite enablement and and just you know obviously the fact that a lot of times enablement rolls into ops and there seems to be in some ways you're working on the same team, but in other ways they had they have two different goals, in two different, you know, results that they're marching towards. How do you advise in the situation where, let's say there's a piece of you know, sales or marketing tech that's bought, or there's some strategy and there's a difference in opinion in terms of rev ops of seeing this or the operations person seeing this is, you know, not particularly, you know, efficient, whereas the enablement team sees hey, there's a lot of we see the vision here of what this can do for the organ they're just not really seeing eyed eye like. How would you handle a situation like that internally? I think the mistake that a lot of leaders have made, I've made these myself, is that you start asking yourself what technologies you need to have in sales to to enable the sales process, and next thing you know you've got an amalgamation of dozens of different technologies that sort of work together but not really. Yeah, you know the the rise, I think, foresters calling a revenue, operations and intelligence. Everyone's enamored with ai now and tracking everything to the Fth degree, and you go out and buy a forecasting solution, you go and buy a CPQ solution, you go out and buy a content management solution, sales intelligence solution. Next thing you know you're paying millions of dollars annually for all these different solutions that don't necessarily work together and they're creating a lot of confusion and discontent inside the Sales Organization. So what should you do about that? Instead of asking yourself what technologies you need? And I started to do this with Patrick Jutra at Genesis when I was there, I said, Patrick, let's let's not talk about the technologies we need. He was running enablement. I said, let's talk about creating the ideal rep experience. What, what experience would a rep want to have pre onboarding, through their first week, through their first month, through their Tenth Year of employment? And when we started to think of it in those terms, we started to jettison some technologies that didn't make sense any longer or some really antiquated account planning tools, and then we started talking about a true ai solution that would help really reps understand what's happening from the marketing side. So how many touches have we seen come from marketing? What does that indicate in terms of their interest? How does that transfer into a sales qualified opportunity, and then how do those opportunities get managed through the entire process? What insights can we glean from that? What data signals can we clean? So...

...how many meetings that we had? What's been the context of those meetings? What was said during those meetings? What was the sentiment? How can that help me manage this opportunity more effectively? How can that improve the quality my forecast? So think, think of the technologies that you use on your smartphone, the ones that you're willing to pay for yourself, and then try to replicate that experience inside of the enterprise and ask yourself, would a rep spend five thousand two hundred and seventy five to a hundred dollars themselves on this technology because it makes their life better and in the in the the answer that question in most companies is no, like it's terrible, like nobody would pay for crm. You're paying for someone to monitor your behavior. Yeah, make sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. Like as a as a sales or at myself, I have paid out of pocket for certain technologies, like a linkedin sales navigator. I know, yeah, I pay seventy bucks a month. I'm going to make more than that, commission by, you know, just being able to prospect better, whereas I would not pay for a crm or or a lot of tools that are not necessarily super necessary. When you're doing that exercise, do you typically survey sales rep sales leaders or or it's still more of like an operations focus conversation? Yeah, it's in comment on that enablement person to go out there and take the pulse of the organization, to ask him what they really want, what they really need and to be honest about it. Yeah, because a lot of times reps will like just have a long wish list versus because it's not coming out of my I don't have a budget. So, yeah, give me more. More is always better. So I was curious. Yeah, you you bring up a good point, because the the operations in enabling people, enable them and people, and really the CRO are there, are the ones that control the budget and they have a tendency to spend money on the on solving the problems that make their lives easier. Yeah, so, like if the operations person is struggling to put a forecast together and to answer questions about activity, they'll go out and buy an expensive forecasting solution that's going to micro manage to how out of sales people not make their lives any better, but it made the life of the operations person better. So you have to be honest with yourself if you might a my doing this to make my life better as the operations person, or am I really trying to make their the reps, life better? Yeah, yeah, for sure it. Yeah, the one thing I advise that you have an operating committee of some of your top raps and have them be like your board of directors for the operations function and have them guide your decisions. Yeah, that's great advice. I'm curious about, you know, in the theory of you know what a lot of folks in rebops you seem to care about when when we're talking about efficiency, making sure everything plays together, they integrate together or, you know, just just everything's running smoothly, especially when you have dozens or hundreds of pieces of tech coming together, depending on the company size. What's your thought on when you're looking at attach or you're looking at a current text act or new piece of tech? Know, the thought of like consolidation for some of these vendors that have, you know, two,...

...three, four five pieces of tack, all of one versus, you know, multiple. You know, quote unquote, best and breed and trying to get the best forecasting solution, the best CPQ, the best sales intelligence, but they may not play together. They're certainly not all under one roof. And, if applicable, how does that, how does your opinion change on that, given like the general landscape right now financially, where it's like are we heading into a recession? There's a lot of startups that are more strapped for cash likely than they were a year ago and things of that sort. Well, everything that you just describe, I started to call it digital overlap, where you want on bout an account planning tool, you bought a forecasting tool and you bought a sales intelligence tool and there are a lot of capabilities and contend let's say, conversational intelligence as well, like a gone or a chorus. There was a lot of overlap in those organized in those kind in those vendors, and you were paying for those capabilities multiple times but only using it in one place. So I use Patrick Jutra and you know what, we had a conversation about a genesis. I said, Patrick, let's create the ideal rep experience and now let's go out there and select the vendors that are going to work together most, most completely, that are going to create that ideal rep experience and what we were trying to solve is pipeline management, Opportunity Management, forecast accuracy, activity capture, conversational intelligence, and I led that that vendor practice when I was at serious decisions. I know all these vendors, I know they're CEOS, I know their products incredibly well. I've I've been an advocate for a lot of them. So we brought them all in and we had we put them through the ringer with sales people and also with the people, the technologists in the back end, and I chose, I made a recommendation before I left. I don't think they ever executed on it, but there were there were two solutions that I chose as my ideal text stack to solve those two types of problems. And if anyone wants to know who those two two vendors were, hit me up on Linkedin. I'm not going to I'm not going to discuss it here publicly because I'll have a lot of angry people, but I can tell you that there are a couple of very for thinking solutions that have solved the problem of digital overlap and are creating a solution that I would I would deploy inside of a company almost immediately to solve some of these problems. Yeah, yeah, I think you know that. That's definitely something that folks are looking for and it just from what I hear on the street as a salesperson in the space, is like, especially just given everything that's going on right now, like where, where can companies can solidate, like what is what tech is actually moving the needle...

...right now? And then where can we you know which ones are we are we buying, paying more than we need for? You know, which teams are we giving something more of a tool for that we don't need to and looking at under a microscope, because I think, like I said before, a lot of companies are just more strapped for cash than they'd like to be or trying to, you know, avoid going for another you know, raised funding around or whatever it might be. So it just to me, it feels like, anecdotally, those a lot of those conversations are coming up quite a bit right now. Right. That was the advice I have for people is there's consolidation in these technology markets and these vendors. So there's no reason why you should have to go out and buy a separate solution for activity capture, and by activity capture I mean that the solution integrates with your sales would your with your meeting client and with your email client and can gather intelligence from those two different data signal. So what who you meeting with? How important are they? What was said, what was a sentiment of what was said, and what does it mean towards selecting the right opportunities to go after? And how can that improve sales forecast accuracy? And then also, how can you create a solution that can help automate the account management piece of the equation for sales people? So you shouldn't have to go out there and buy a separate solution for conversational intelligence, forecasting and for account management. It should be one or two solutions that you can stitch together that are going to work completely as a single solution together. And I can tell you, like the vendors that can't do that, if your sales operations, revenue operations, whatever operations role you are, they're the ones that are trying to get around you. They are the ones that are trying to book a meeting with the CEO of the crow because they know they can't sell the value to you and there's one out there that I would love to be all the name that I want who. That's their playbook. Like they try to get into you and then next thing you know they're trying to overturn your whatever decision and influence you have as the operations leader by going to the CEO of the company in sometimes even going to the board of directors to try to force their solution into a company because they know it's inferior. Interesting. Well, Dani, might need to talk offline about this or your your DM's on Linkedin might start flooding because we're really ill. May names of people reachhuts. Terrible behavior, the so the there's a few more topics I wanted to get into, just kind of slightly shifting the topic that we're covering. You know, we had gone back and forth of a little bit of prep work and some stuff that you have put a lot of thought into as it relates to rev ops and sales ops, and one thing that cut my eye was just around sales ops staffing strategies and trying to you know, what it looks like to me is is kind of like trying to link the different hires that you make based on like the type of...

...work that's going on it and you talked about all these different things that sales ops of repops are responsible for or on, you know, staffing. We're talking about, you know, forecasting, we're talking about sales comp and acceleration and rewards and things like that. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about how you kind of map like your job classifications to the way that you're staffing. Yeah, a number of years ago I started to look into a study that was done by the St Louis Federal Reserve. There was an economist there's name was Maximilian. I can't remember the last name. I'm doing him an injustice, but he started to look at the nature of work and what's happened over the last forty or fifty years in the US economy. Like Letsie had developed economy and he classified it using a for block grid and on the on the y access. If you think about manual labor versus cognitive activity, like in my working with my hands, am I working with my brain? And I don't want to dismiss anyone who's in the trades or anything like that, because they're working with their hands and their brains, and we have a shortage of those people. Right now I'm experiencing that. You can't find any talented people to help you projects around the house. But just think about it. Is Shoveling or working in an assembly line or working in an office where you're responsible for thought leadership. And then on the on the x access they call it routine versus non routine. So in that Laura left hand quadrant is manual, routine labor and that stuff is what gets automated or gets off short almost immediately. In the in the upper right hand quadrant, you've got non routine, highly cognitive activity, and that's what I would call sales strategy and planning. and Go to market structures, where it's a difficult problem that requires a lot of research and many different recommendations and and what if analysis. So you can in sales operations, revenue operations. If you start thinking about that sales planning and strategy conversation, you want that. That's setting the strategy for the Organization for the next year, deciding what resources you need, where they needed to be deployed, what markets you want to go after, what the cost of those resources are, how to get the best roi where to make the investments, but there's a lot of research that has to go into that. So what information do I need? Where do I get it? How do I assemble it? How do I analyze it? That's spreadsheet work, that's that's doing data dumps from your arp or you crm and then massaging that information and putting it together so that you can do the analysis that you're talking about. Companies, sales operations, I talked to some of the other day, revenue operations. They're like race car drivers who are responsible for getting out of the car at the pit stoff to change their own oil and so that the changing the oil is the manual routine labor, but driving the car is what's really difficult. And we're at this in flection point where we...

...expect sales revenue operations, people, any operations, people out there to be the race car driver and the pit crew and you can't. You can't scale that way. So you need to figure out a way to do that manual labor, that manual routine stuff, much more efficiently. It's why I join at a plan, because and a plan is a platform. It's not a point solution. It solves that problem of buying all these multiple solutions that don't necessarily work well together. You're able to do it in one place. So you're able to gather all that manual labor, all that manual routine stuff in a single data hub from all these different source systems, connect all those different source systems so it's always updated, it's always fresh, and then you're able to create models and that's where the the cognitive stuff happens. So how are we going to how are we going to deploy quota for five thousand people across the Globe and get it done in the next sixty days? Make sure our sales people are motivated at kickoff and they hit the ground running? That's that cognitive stuff. So you know, using a solution like Anaplan is it's automating the routine manual and then it's giving you the ability to be a lot more strategic and thinking about that non routine cognitive stuff and that one of the biggest complaints in operations is that I'm stuck in fire, fire extinct extinguisher mode. I'm just responding to tactical request that come across my desk. I don't have time to think about anything strategic. If you don't have a strategy to automate, to simplify, to make that process more efficient or, especially from a strategy planning and rewards, you're going to be very, very unhappy and overworked. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, appreciate you lining that out. There's one final topic I want to get into that say it's a bit of a pivot from where we are. It's a little bit more of a cerebral thought, but it's something I saw you post on linked in a little while ago around the Taoist farmer and that story, which I loved him. Actually the first time I heard it. Hopefully we can relate on this was was Tom Brady brought it up and I would imagine your New England background makes you a fan of his. Yes, just taking a stab, and so I'd love to for those that aren't familiar, maybe you could just kind of like talk a little bit about, you know, that philosophy and just what it has meant to you. So I I got out of the military, I think, back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five, and I've been through a lot, like personally, just we're sort of just trying to find a philosophy. I thought that would work for me individually, having been exposed to many different things, and I eventually ended up finding a school. I read a book called the Tao of Pooh, Tiao of Pooh. Somebody gave it to me, and it's started talking about Taoism, this philosophy of understanding and trying to grasp the ultimate reality so that you could assumulate yourself to that ultimate reality and be a happier, more content person. I became obsessed with it. I was in Boston at that...

...time. I found something called the center of Traditional Daoist Studies, located in Weston, Massachusetts. There was there was a daoist master who started that school back in one thousand nine hundred and seventy six. He was a he was a Russian immigrant. He studied under a daoist master who had immigrated to Russia at the Moscow back in the in the late s. You know, he was an ordained Dallas priest and he was also a matter of Kung Fu, and I went to him and, you know, asking to take me as a student. He told me no forever and finally accepted me as a student and I said, look, I just really want to study daois them, he'Saly. You can't do it without understanding she cong. You can't understo it without understanding meditation, Without Understanding Kung Fu. So I just dedicated my life, like twelve years to studying all this stuff, five days a week. My wife was a Kung Fu widow at that time and I've just loved it. And so the Dallas farm and that you talked about, it's a parable about not really. We're limited in our comprehension of what's happening around us at any given time and we had this tendency to judge things very quickly. So some of the worst experiences that you've had in your life, if you go back and you look at them, say, well, those are the those are the periods of time where I grew the most, where when I thought the world was falling apart and I thought all these terrible things were happening to me, was actually critical to my development and it made me a stronger person to put me in a position to where I am now. And so the parable of the Dallas farmer was that there was a farmer who had a son and they went out and they procured a race horse that they had found and then the neighbor came and said Hey, that's good. And the idea is that you don't know what's good and what's bad in the moment. Sometimes, so the farmers that will maybe. So the the next day the sun was out there and trying to tame the Horse and was riding the Horse and fell off the horse and broke his leg and the neighbor came and said, well, that's bad, and the Dallois farmers will maybe, because you know, I understand that you don't really know how these events are going to play out. And then now he's got the sun with the broken leg. He's got this this racehorse. The next day that the military came and wanted to conscript their son into too service and they couldn't because he had a broken leg. You know what you think, oh, that's favorable. You just avoided maybe certain death by having to serve in the military. And in the neighbor came back and said, well, that's good, and then in the Dallas farmer said maybe so. It's an encouragement for people to not really get too hung up in the current moment. I know some things fuelled terrible I've been through these things myself take a broader picture and and try to understand that it's part of a bigger bigg something bigger that's going to happen. And in sales operations and revenue operations, I my first year in it, my I lost three bosses. All got fired within the first because you know what I'm to see.

So was and Cros as they get fired and it felt like it felt awful and but it prepared me for for a career in this profession and where I am today. And there's been lots of ups and downs and I've worked for some great people, I've worked with some terrible people, but the worst experiences I've had in this profession were the ones that in which I learned the most and gave me the ability to really have a vision, in a view of what's happening. That makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. I one of my favorite quotes or or kind of philosophies. I've been getting more into like stoicism and reading some books around that and there's some I'm paraphrasing, but it's like if you say the sentence that happened and it was good, it's actually two different sentences. Right. It's like that happened and then you actually decide was that a good thing or a bad thing, quote unquote, because nothing in its own right is good or bad itself. And so again, for whether it's we're talking life, whether we're talking work, there's a lot of folks that, you know, we're all going through ups and downs, and so I couldn't, I couldn't have noticed that and not bring that up, and I know it's a little bit of a deviation from where we've been like last twenty five minutes of the conversation, but yeah, appreciate learning your story there without that, Dallas Master, I just went through a seventy fourth birthday party a week ago and spent five hours talking to them and giving some of different perspective from him, and it's something to be said for somebody that grew up in common me in this Russia underneath the communist regime and we're able to escape and and make a live. I mean there's there's there's an infinite number of stories that you could hear from someone like that. Have somebody to experience that, you know, ended up in the French Foreign Legion and then ended up in the US, and it's incredible. You know, it was a bounty hunter to make a living. You can't write the stories in the experience that you get. I say everything I've learned about sales and revenue operations and sales itself I learned from a from a Kungfu master. Yeah, it's what a privilege. Yeah, it's right about that. It's really cool. Yeah, well, thanks for thanks the audience for indulging us in that slight departure from you know, the best way to run your revenue operations program internally, to get a little deeper with us. Dana, I appreciate you coming on sharing your wisdom around everything in your hard earned experience. Before we leave, wants to give you a minute talk about where folks if they have questions or on anything we talked about. What's the best place to reach out to you or to learn more? I'm very active on Linkedin, so that the best place to reach out to me is on Linkedin. Send me a direct message and I'll be sure to get back to thanks for this time, Tom Yeah, absolutely, thanks, Dana. Appreciate it all right, thanks for tuning in again. This episode is brought to you by Repris. We're prettiest. Is a no code enterprise ready demo creation platform that gives go to market teams the power to control the narrative of their demos and deliver custom product experiences without...

...developer involvement. Easily convey your solutions value to decision makers with guided demos and live sales demos with reprise. Try The reprieve platform for yourself and start creating winning demos today at reprisecom. We back next week with another episode. Until then, hit me up on Linkedin. My Name's Tom lemo and get after it. We'll see you next Monday, please.

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