The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 month ago

Ep 222: Closing The Gap In Sales Leadership Education w/ Duane Dufault

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Ep 222: Closing The Gap In Sales Leadership Education w/ Duane Dufault

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

But all right, we got dwayne default back here on the pavilion podcast. Dayne. How are you, my man Tom? I'm doing great. I appreciate you know, beat on this podcast. I've been actually have been a part of pavilion and kind of all the different channels, different things has been doing back in the early days of revenue collective, and so it's some great kind of following the trajectory of that community, different things has been doing, and then the podcast to and the other podcast as well. So it's really cool kind of scene everything outside in and participating and now kind of being able to be part of a little bit as exciting for me. For me for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's crazy how fast everything's grown and and evolved with pavilion. So to be there. When did you just it? Was it a couple years ago, or how long ago? I want to say it was like the end of two thousand and eighteen? Oh Wow, that right. Early, yeah, as I end of two thousand and eighteen, early two thousand and nineteen. I think there wasn't even a thousand members, or maybe it was like six or seven hundred members. It was and I got denied the first time because I didn't. I didn't have like a special title and and I think back then it was like director, but I'm there were like no, I only except VP's and like book your definition of your only report as the CEOS. Like. I just they just didn't give me that for a while because it was a startup, and so it took like three months and I was finally I was like I got like the head of sales and I reapplied. They're like okay, you're good. I'm like literally, nothing changed. Now it's like just the title change. Yeah, they used to be. They used to be incredibly selective, I feel like, yeah, titles and things like that, but crazy however things evolved. Yeah, well, we'll speaking a leadership. I know that's been something that you've been diving into. Obviously that's been, you know, a profession of yours, you know, at different startups and companies and now try to help others through the ranks there. So I'd love to just hear like, first of all, what is the what is kind of the issue? Where the impetus for why, you know, you're choosing the lane of consulting and just like really trying to help folks that are in that kind of midmanagement tier in their career. We don't have enough time in the day to talk about the details. But in the issue that I've really run into is and pavilion help solve some of this too. There's like there is no traditional schooling. First off for sales. They're starting to like you can go to college, you can get like the super leane sale system and Chico state and you can do those things and there's there's thing and and pavilions helping with some sort offication pass. But the end of the day there's there's no like hey, I've got a bachelor's or a masters in sales leadership. It's just, yeah, it's not a thing. And so when you when you make it to the VP level, even then it's still like the wild wild west on what's important. What do I need to focus on? What's the balance between management and leadership and strategy and all that stuff? But to even get from like a team lead spot where you're a senior AE and you've been given some responsibility from time to time to help on board New People, to help coach some people, kind of show the the through the ranks right. But between that and...

...vp it is such a gray area. It is no man's land on what to do how to do it. What does a one on one look like? What's the difference in one one in a coaching call? Like how do I manage employee conflict? How do I handle my own internal issues with the dealing of anxiety and overwhelm and being enough as a new manager to show up for the team? Like how do you transition from being a top account executive or top str to a manager? Is that even the right path to take? Right? It's there's so much that goes into leading a group of people that we are as a society, pushing towards. Hey, this person was successful over here, that means they're going to be successful over here. Duh. Next, sign them up. Good. There you go. And then what happens is you have maybe four to six weeks of this halo effects of the new manager where people are hang on every word this person. So they were topic kind of executive over here. They know what's going on there was going and they end up just kind of duplicating themselves in coaching calls and how they do account reviews and how they run one on one's and they just try to steam roll through everything and then a couple months later I was excited anymore. They don't know how to handle employee issues, the management side of running a team. There's this person shows up late to work, this I don't know, this person isn't hitting goal and I've told them how to do it a hundred times or not listening. And how do you show up for your team in a way that you're not casting your own emotions on to them? And so you have this massive group of people that want to do good, but there is there's just nothing there that's like, Hey, your first year is a sales manager. Really focus on x to move from sales manager to director, do these things, and when you're in a director, here's what you're actually doing and then here's what director to VP looks like. The difference and they're just, and let me preface that statement that there's not a clear path at any company because it's different in every company that you're at, because everyone's definition of a sales manager are quotes, is different and every product is different, every sales team is different, every company, every environment, every culture, and so it's there's no clear cut way to kind of move through the ranks and sales leadership and you get you'll get these large logos like like an oracle or a sales force or an into it, or these really, really big companies that are very structured in their career pathing strategy for their sales teams and then they're like, oh, I'm going to use my experience go...

...to a startup where's there's zero patent career pathing at all and are just they just hit this wall and so there's just long when it answer. But it's like I just I feel for this group because that was me. That was me. I came from teams of just poor managers, people who didn't focus on leading people. They were titled Managers, Not Leaders, and I always felt like there was a better way and so I just I just remember kind of fumbling my way through teams and fumbling my way through positions and thinking there's always something greener on the other side, or this comp plans better for this managers. I'M gonna go over there and I can't wait till I make more money than when I was a sales up. And doesn't happen for a while. Like you can't get into management because you want money, like it's it there's this there's just this huge gap. I was in it for a long time and I remember kind of finally feeling out of it and then now looking kind of outside in as managers that I worked with people and I promoted, and then other people in my shoes, it was like that was a shitty journey. Yeah, and so it's like how can how can we help solve the greater problem in our businesses and our society by helping to produce more leaders that care about their team, which then changes the way people do with burnout, changes the way people experience cultures in their companies and change is the way that they you know, instead of bounced to company to company to company hoping you find more money, they're able to find fulfillment, happiness and success because there's true leaders in place guiding them along the way. And so that's kind of big statement there, but it's like that, for me, is one of the biggest missing things in business today, not just tech or Sass, it's just where's the true leadership? Not just management. We've got managers everywhere, but like we're where's that path that we can show people to be better leaders? That's kind of what I'm trying to do with my life these days. Yeah, and do you? Do you feel like that's something that you work more so with, you know, the VP's of sales or the crow and do like a top down? Hey, here's how you need to on board your leaders. Here saw you need to choose who should be leaders. Or is it, you know, equally or more about the frontline managers themselves and talking, because they they need to learn for themselves. You know what it takes to be successful, how to find fulfillment? You know, should they even be a leader versus an individual contributor and things like that. Where do you think the biggest area of opportunity is between those? We're starts a clear line, because everyone's different and every culture and every company's different, because one the first thing that anyone should do if they're considering management is really ask themselves why they want to do it. If money is the first reason, do not become a sales manager like and, and I'd say that because your...

...base may be higher if you take that str manager position, but your variable is going to be lower. But then your ability to make commission goes away and it then rests on the shoulders of other people. That you have to get to make decisions and perform a certain way and you can't do that by just saying hey, do what I did and so again, if your want to take a leadership spot or you think management is the next phase in your career because you want to make more money, you're going to be sorely mistaken for a few years. Like it is not the path to where you're going to make more money until you're at that maybe director or VP roll. Then you can start making that money again. But if money is the thing that you want, man you just get really good at your job, like when when I was an individual contributor to the point that I was in sales management, it took me three years to get back to the total earnings I was when I was a sales right. And so it's that first question that people need to ask is why are you why? Why do you want to do it? What's in it for you? What are you going to get out of it? Do you really truly enjoy it? But then on the leadership side, it's making sure that you're creating a culture of people to try shit, like if you're not training your team, developing your team to be leaders in their own roles, giving you the experiences, giving them opportunities to try things, to experience things, and you're not reading at culture of failure and vulnerability in connectivity with your team, you're you're going to struggle finding people that really want to own that spot because they're not going to experience it until they're in it and then they're like I don't want to do this. Yeah, so I'd say those two two things. Yeah, I feel like on the second piece that you said, oftentimes, you know, frontline managers are are tasked with, you know, like I was telling you before the recording, when I was a frontline managers, like are you know, there's no training. It was like here's your reps, here's your quote up, go figure it out, you know, go hit quote, and so I would, you know, try to you know, talk to mentors, I try to, you know, ask podcast. Guess I'd read books at listen to podcast and just try to figure out a way to do it in a way to, you know, not only hit the number but also make people feel fulfilled and enjoy the role and grow and develop at all the things that an individual contributor wants out of a role. But it's damn near impossible if you don't have like legit training, legit, you know, resources to help you get there, because otherwise you're just you're just fishing blindly for it. Yeah, hundred percent. And and it's funny that you say read books and see all these things, is there's so much stuff out there for leadership. There's a lot of things out there to become an effective manager, but where everything seems to kind of fail is the application to your situation. I've read hundreds of leadership books, but there's nothing to be like hey, and this moment, this is how you apply this leadership mentality. This is the law of the...

...wit ball, like there's the the the disconnect between knowledge and application is just massive in all areas, but especially in like sales management land. HMM. Yeah, I mean, so we were talking a little bit before the podcasts around, you know, some of the new efforts that you have. So you got to do podcast that's, yeah, out as of this week or just, you know, just released, and then a community that that's getting started for folks. So I'm curious, like if someone comes to you right and they're part of the community or you're coaching them or they're just a friend and they're like man, you know Joyne, I'm you know, I'm a second line leader and you know, I just got this promotion and before you know, I was really tasked with, you know, coach up the team and making sure we hit our forecasts. And now not really sure what to do. Like you know, I there's kind of this midlevel roll and, you know, I feel like you always need to hit a different mentality the further you go up in an organization. You have to see kind of farther out and expand. So what are the first steps that someone needs to take if they want to elevate themselves from like the front line manager to let's say that director level or whatever? That that next in between is before VP. So when I when I look at the different stages in mindsets and focuses that leaders take in their career, I oftentimes I categorize it in two types of patterns. So you have pattern recognition, pattern implementation and pattern creation. So frontline managers, you look at it as you are implementing the pattern that's been given, even that's been proven to work, and so it's your responsibility to make sure that it stays status quot optimization management literally in your title. Then pattern recognition has kind of where that second line, that director, senior manager, that kind of no man's land is on titles where you need to be really good about spotting trends. You really need to be tied into your front line managers. You have to have a solid relationship with them. You need to be really, really good about enabling them and powering them, removing road blocks and helping them through the implementation of whatever strategy is there. But you have to be good at recognizing trends, recognizing when the pattern isn't working. You have to keep tabs on all of those things. You have to be and on the other side of things, it's it's you got to be good at crm. Like let's not shy away from the massive amount of tools that everyone has to use these days, like going you call a ice software is really cool if you know what to do with it. Frontline managers, you know, they're really great about getting in the system and optimizing it, using it and recognizing it. But you have to be able to use the tools that are in front of you to spot trends and then help course correct back onto the pattern and then going to the next level. It's it's pattern creation where you see trends in the marketing working with the departments. It's different conversation. But the biggest difference there between the front line and second line is you have to recognize that you have to recognize new patterns, you have to understand...

...trends, you have to realize when things are kind of bearing off course how to bring them back. But then the most important part about that is you have to have a really, really deep connection with your frontline managers, but not losing the connection with your team. And that's really challenging because your knee jerk reaction, if you're new, if you came from frontline management in the same company, is to continue managing the relationship you did with that team like you did before. Yeah, and it's hard for them to break that too. And you have to encourage everybody to go through their frontline managers and power them, really focus on leading through them. Trust them. That's the biggest thing is trust your frontline managers. Allow them to fail, allow them to take charge, step out of the limelight of being the previous manager and allow them to lead. You are there to enable them and empower them. To be better leaders out in the front and you there to pick up the pieces along the way. A lot of directors, when when I see them in that second line role for the first time, they again that halo effect comes in and they just they want to be captain fix it, they want to solve all the problems, they want to help hire all these things and all as and and they kind of just sweep the rug out from the other managers and don't allow them to find their own voice in that role and as a second line later. You really need to be working on amplifying that line of leadership, if that if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, absolute. I'd love to double click into what you're talking about with some of the numbers, getting into, you know, sales force or whatever reporting that folks are using, because I think you wrote up a playbook or some sort of look around, like the metric manager, I think it's called. So I'd love to get like, and I'm sure it's different for a lot of organizations, but what are like the the liver die metrics that people should be focusing on in that in that world? Well, first off, there's two pipelines and sales that only we only tend to take a look at the opportunity pipeline. Everything before that is like it's magic numbers that people don't log because we make it really hard for sales reps a log dire activity. So there's there's two pipelines. So you got to look at the sales activity pipeline and you look at the opportunity pipeline because if you if you're sitting there asking for forecasted numbers, if you're sitting there doing pipeline optimization and whatever, you can't really make an impact on the current pipeline unless you understand what's happening before it. So if you if you're not paying attention to the basic fundamentals of sales, number of calls, umber connects, number of sets, number those specific things, the things that sells reups can control, you're never going to really impact the overall pipeline because all of those previous pieces of activity is what influences and it doesn't matter if you're, excuse me, doesn't matter if you run a full cycle sales team or a AE and SDR relationship where you bring in a sales engineer, whatever it is, if you're not paying attention to those fundamental metrics that the team can control, you're you're not going to really make an impact...

...on the overall opportunity to revenue at the end of the day. So, like I, I look at phone calls. How many phone calls were remaking? What are the points of contact that that we're doing? Are we paying attention to effective points of communication? Are we doing what's necessary for our buyer in our business? Do they like to text? Is Are you being versatile in your approach and outreacher? You using video in your email? Are you calling multiple times to a single contact? Are you only calling the company phone number? And so it's it's really really dialing it down on the effective activity and making sure that you're allowing your reps to do that, because, again, if you're not monitoring those fundamental metrics, those fundamental things, than the opportunity pipeline doesn't really matter. Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes complete sense. and Are you looking at that? You know, if you're a second line manager, you looking at that on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on a multiple times per day basis. Like, how in the weeds are we getting here? So I am a data nerd, and that I mean hence the the metric manager playbook. When I when I run teams, I have daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly dashboards of all the same metrics. I look at total phone calls per day, per week, per month, per quarter, and how are we trending in those types of things, because I'm looking for patterns. I'm looking for trends to course correct certain things, to plan out certain things. To give an example, at a specific company it was a very common trend that the second week of the month. So they had a two week trial. So the second week of the month was always low and activity because you come in the first week, everyone's excited, new moonth new numbers, like boom, boom, boom, call, call, call, set, call, set, Opportunity move forward. But then you come into the next weekend it's meetings, which are the results from those phone calls. Whether you're an st are scheduling discovery calls, additionals cut or your an AE following up and doing a demo, the activity was alwayss lower, which then led to a frenzy on week three and then all out blits on week four, and so spotting those trends was like, okay, what can we do to optimize that second week so we can go into the third week and fourth week of the month higher and more effective in our overall opportunity count. It was like, all right, we're going to run call activity competitions on the second week of the month, on month to in the first quarter, because that's where the lull is based on that data. So I would use those reports in the DASHBOARDS, in the metrics that the team was collecting to optimize that. And once we started implementing those types of strategies, getting that granule in a data, we didn't have those lulls. We had month over month increases and overall opportunity and customer count. We were able to hire more sales reps and it's just fundamentals understanding the data, looking at the trends and seeing and trying and experimenting different things to then increase overall revenue output by controlling those little things. So yeah, yeah, that...

...makes complete sense and I'm curious, you know, when you're talking about pipeline, I feel like you know the other pipeline that folks referred to, as you know, the people pipeline that they have and whether that's promoting SDRs today within the organization or, obviously, folks that are outside applying and things like that. In such a tricky time like we're in right now, where you're seeing starting to see more and more layoffs across the board, you're starting to see, you know, obviously people have been mentioned the great resignation for a while, you do see some companies that are still killing it and hiring across the board. How do you, how do you advise folks on on on that of just like always maintaining, you know, a really healthy pipeline in terms of the talent that they have and and making sure that you know whether you're going back to hybrid root work or it's completely remote or there's just so many different factors right now that sales people need to weigh in with with the sales opportunity. Just curious, like how you advise folks to, you know, in the leadership side, to make sure they're they're keeping their talent pipeline full. Well, one of the primary responsibilities of Department head, whether it's success for sales product, is you're always trying to make sure you keep your talent pull active. Doesn't mean you're always hiring, you're always making sure that you have tabs into what's going on in case someone leaves. It's just the nature of the beast. Attrition happens. You can do your best, people are always going to leave. Actually have a very lowutrition rate, but it's a what do you think that is? I love my team I on. I personify the whole cliche saying of coachams where they can go anywhere, but created environments where they won't. And it doesn't matter if you've got a shitty culture as a company. The buck stops at you as their manager. You can create an individual team culture and if the culture of outside of the sales team is like that, your responsibility of their leader to shield, protect and fight for him. If you're not doing that and you got hyatrition, I know where to look at. So the backing up to your question is like how to advise for talent pipeline on a company level. You've got to be flexible. I don't care your business model or your product. It's the new way of doing things. If you're not flexible to how you're working, if you're if you're writing business plans where you're forcing people back in the office and you've literally grown during Covid I'm going to ask you why. Thank yeah, your costs are lower because you don't have an office. You've got happier people, you have a remote work like. It's my biggest question. When I see that. I'm like, what are you doing? Like you're literally making your employees do something they don't want to do when you've had success, but then you always need to be planning for that. You you need to make sure, like I said, you're active in the talent pull, having those conversations, connecting with recruiters, making sure that your HR is up to speed on everything that's going on. If you don't have an HR department, I'm...

...sorry, but it's the the talent pipeline and itself. As you always need to be preparing your team for the next level. It's just you. If you don't have a career path built out for whatever role, go and do that, and you need to constantly preparing people for the next level in their career. If you're if you're not actively coaching the entry level parttime Bedr who's entering chats on the inbound circuit in Florida and if you're not helping them get to the full time spot, or the SDR, or the SDR to the senior star, to the SDRs, account exegetive, whatever path that they want to go. What are you Ben Doing? Like do you like? I don't understand sales leaders or any department head that's not constantly trying to upskill an up level their entire team. Like if you're not growing, you're dying. So it's kind of I don't know if that's a good answer or a line in the sand enough of an answer, but it's like you constantly need to be preparing your people for the next level, whether it's with you or you happily be a reference for their next opportunity. Yeah, feels like, you know, from the outside it seems like a lot of sales leaders get so caught up in the number, you know, the number, the number, the number, the deals, the deals, the deals, that they then began about the coaching, the training, the onboarding, the creating the culture, and then all of a sudden they look up and they wonder why they miss their number because half the team left, you know, and it creates this vicious cycle. It's it's I love and hate VC's because there's there's been money thrown around like crazy these last few years. They are getting millions of dollars out for slide decks before product is live, before revenue is there, before customers, and they give these money. They give all this money out before product market fit. And so you have these sales teams that are hired. I've personally talked to three reps that were managers that got laid off in the last three weeks because of this exact problem. They hired these people. They want triple double trip, they want all this growth whatever, and the team is struggling to close because there's not enough value there or the problem isn't solidified, marketing is and have our attribution figured out. So they're dumping all this money into paid campaigns. Mt Well sucked, no one's happy, everyone's getting burnt out. When all of a sudden the whole team gets laid off, you're like, Holy Crap, would happen? And so we seed to slow the hell down, like with with everything that's going on in the tech world, like we really need to just just take a breath, slow down a little bit and really stop and see what's going on, because your Mr and Mrs Vp, you will never hit your number unless your people hit it because you're not the one dial on the phone, you're not the one doing demos, you're not the one struggling to hook up at API because the product team won't pay attention to it. It's not you. It'll never be you. You're not the one that hits the number. It's your damn team, and if you're not optimizing and training and developing your team at the lowest level to be the best that they can be, you're always going to struggle to...

...hit that number. Simple HMM. That's powerful TWAY, and I want to take a little bit of a pivot here. I got a couple rapid fires that I want to hit you with. Yeah, ahead with that. So first up, we're big learners on this podcast and you know, I see this fantastic bookshelf to bookshelf behind you with a couple books that I recognize there over, yeah, your shoulders. Would love to hear any books that you recommend, you know, obviously on the topic of leadership that we're into, but just also anything that's, you know, inspired you or really helped you on your career journey. I'm a really big advocate of figuring out what's going on between your ears, if you can't be comfortable with silence, if you can't have a conversation with yourself because you don't like the answer, I would start there. You've got to understand your your emotional endurance. You have to understand your own mindset in your approach to things, and I'm in a ten person. She couldn't tell and I like things that. Yeah, I I enjoy things that really make me pause and have that conversation with myself. The conversation with the mirrors an interesting one. Really big fan of Tim grovern. If you guys have ever known of him. He's got two primary books, winning and relentless. He was Michael Jordan's mindset and fitness conditioning coach during, you know, Michael Jordan's reign. He was also Kobe Bryant's mental and conditioning coach and he wrote two books and I've read them many times. They're very intense, they're very straightforward, but it's it. It is a mental reset that we all need, especially if you're going in the sales management and you want to be able to handle it and find success. You don't have to be a gregarious outward person like me. I just like this version of me. But you have to understand and be comfortable with who you really want to be and if you can't, then everything that you're insecure about, all of the darkness, all of those demons, that's all going to come out and those moments of adversity when your rep challenges you. So you have to figure out what's going on in between your years. Yeah, I saw. I saw winning by Tim Grover over you, one of your shoulders inside. I knew that'd be one of the answers are. I figured it would, because it's I mean, he's just he maybe isn't for everyone, but I love him too. I think guys bleeds intensity like it's yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. I can only imagine what some of his encounters with that, with some of those players, were like. Oh Yeah, how about on the on the podcast circuit? PODCAST, you know, newsletters, you follow people, you're into on Linkedin, anything like that that has stood out to you lately on the topic of leadership? Leadership is the definition of leadership. Is All relatives, because everyone likes to be led a certain way. And so Darren McKee, I was interacting with him this morning. Actually, he's gotting a new role director of growth and he's all about positivity and the environment and culture of the you are at work and you post multiple times the day. It's always great. But then, like podcast interesting enough, like I don't they I listen. I listened to the billion podcast and as a couple...

...other specific ones, but I'm like Ed my Lett's podcasts. A lot of his early stuff is really good. That I mean a lot about mindset, a lot about business, but kind of applying that. And then the early days, it's not MFCEO anymore, used to be called Anfceo, but the guy, and if you sellar is the founder of a company called First Form Nutrition Company. Now it's something it's like the relayoff or whatever. It's kind of too political for my taste, but the early days of that one was MFCEO. And then there's Tom Bill you. He was the founder of question nutrition. Really really good, really good podcast. The production values really good, but he's really he's all about the connection of your mind, in your emotions and your body and really optimizing that. He's got some really good so it's that's the lot. That's a lot of stuff that I focus on. Is I understand that I need to be a better, better version of myself if I want to show up for other people and if all I'm doing is just flooding my mind with numbers and tactics and numbers and tactics and Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah, and then I just get a rewhelmed and then I'm going to overwhelm my people. And so if I can't show up as the best version of myself for my people, then why am I even here? And so a lot of the stuff that I do is all around that. Intense physical exercises, iron man competitions, books like. I need to make sure that I am at my peak in order for other people to see what it takes to get there. And so it's that's really, really portant to me. Yeah, it sounds like we have pretty similar spotify pocket yeap. So if we went through and went went show for show, we'd probably be on this, on a pretty similar page. What goes on Music Wise, in the headphones? Dwayne? Oh Gosh, yeah, it's I'm all over the place, like I have I don't have bows. I've got the Sony Wx, whatever these things are, because you can connect to to devices at once, which is great, but it's I'll go from like your hardcore heavy metal stuff, from what I'm like working out, to I'll literally listen to two guys and piano in the background, just like the classical type stuff on the music nerd. I grew up in a music family, so I love it, but it's all over the place. But it's usually like bouncing back and forth between some type of metal music because it's intense, but then I'll go and listen to some version of like classic music, where it's like literally like versions of like Beethoven or something like that. For some reason the combination of those two throughout the day keep it going. I dig it. Who's one person that you'd want to see come on the pavilion podcast? Carl car for eras new sales manager of a refined labs crushing it over there. He spent a few years over at hub spot as as an account executive to team lead. He was actually on my pat podcast. He's coming out. Technically episode is going to be released tomorrow, which is a Thursday, which it'll be probably a couple weeks before this release is but yeah, Carl Frera...

...over at refine labs. Chris Walkers is Seo over there. He's doing wonderful things though. He's there. He was their first sales manager, like the because it was founder let cells for the longest time, and he went in and made the kind of the big leap from SASS. He went from selling hub spot into service space company, where it's a marketing agency where they're providing and so he had a really make the mental shift of going from Oh, we get an inbound trial to Oh, we this is different. And so he's hiring team building process, establishing dominance and and really kind of hit his stride earlier this year and just started just dominating. I had asked him the question a couple weeks ago. I'm like, Hey, so this is service space company. What's going to happen when you bring on thirty customers in a month when the norm has been seven? Like you're going to reach that tea? So it's been really cool to kind of see his growth and progression in that role and really establishing h himself as a leader in that space. So it definitely had to recommend Carl. Super Cool. I Will Carl. You're on my prospecting list. DWAITE, appreciate you. Appreciate you coming on sharing your wisdom. I'd be ormist not to, you know, give you an Intu up from it to talk, you know, more depth just about the podcast, about the community that you run, the consulting, everything that you got. You got a lot of a lot of hats that you wear, so I'd love you just take a minute and talk about some of that stuff. So there's two primary topics that that I'm passionate about. I of course, sales leadership. It's near and dear to my heart. It's one of those things that I find really hard to charge money for because I want to give back so much. But I do have a podcast called sales leader network. It we're doing a launch right now, in the middle of this week. Set Full seasons coming out in the second season will be done at the end of May and then there's a community coming out for that to really, really focused on helping sales managers through the struggles and through the whole process of getting into leadership, understanding that they're not alone, because that's a really that is a feeling that all sales managers go through, especially if you're to start up and you are the only sales manager, you the only director, you're the V and so it's that's what the community is about, is really really helping establishing your presence and that you are enough in in your role and things that you can provide and bring to the team. And the other side of it is kind of the the other side of the business is I really, really love helping SASS companies kind of scale their revenue acquisition from like a product led growth plus sales led motion. It's kind of a new thing in Sass land and it's kind of flipping a lot of old school processing on its head, but it's it's really fun. It serves my data side I do. That's where most of actually most of my paid consultant comes from, as I work directly with SASS founders to get them out of this the founder led sales kind of mindset and really help them scale both their product led growth side and bringing in sales teams kind of optimize that. And really good history. Previous company was there for three year, three and a half years. I was...

...our first manager hired. We were two million a R R when I when I joined and then in three and a half years it was eleven and a half million and are are and we were required during an acquisition of three hundred twenty million all boots drop. So there's there's a lot of stuff rolled up in that. And so there's the sales leadership and then the the BB SASS consulting stuff that I do. Everything's usually housed under my main website, just waying defaultcom. A lot of different en routes there. You can go to selling Sass, you can go to sales leader network, but everything kind of summed up at our new thought. Nice, awesome. Well, Dwayne, I appreciate you coming on. Appreciate what you're doing for the sales community, for the leadership community. I highly encourage everyone to that's listening here to go fall you on Linkedin, check out the PODCAST, check out the community and everything that you're doing and it was great to it to chat with you, my man. I appreciate it. Anytime you guys have questions or anything. Just you know, my DM's always open. My my freaking cell phone numbers literally on my linkedin page. So how about it? Text him column facetime. I'm get ahold of the people. Yeah, thanks, Joan. Appreciate you that. Thanks Tom.

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