The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

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Ep 164: Being The First Sales Hire w/ Callum Woodcock

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Ep 164: Being The First Sales Hire w/ Callum Woodcock 

Part of the TGIM (Thank God It's Monday!) series hosted by Tom Alaimo.

All right, welcome back to the Pavilionpodcast. This is the podcast where revenue leaders come to learn about thetips, the tricks, the tactics that can make them successful in their roles.I'm your host tom a lame O T. G. I am. Thank God it's monday excited to getinto today's episode. Before we do that. Let's give a quick shout out to oursponsor sponsoring. Today's episode is Sandoz. So Sandoz. So the leadingsending platform is the most effective way for revenue generating teams tostand out with new ways to engage at strategic points throughout thecustomer journey. By connecting digital and physical strategies. Companies canengage, acquire and retain customers easier than ever before. So definitelyshow some love to our friends at Sandoz. So can also learn more. I post everysingle day I'm linked in. My name is tom Elena, you can learn more about methere. All right, today, I've got an interview with Callum Woodcock. Callumis the commercial director of it over at No me. Oh, he got his come up insales over at jpmorgan, went to grace to be an A. E. And so he is the firstcommercial higher over at Romeo and at a relatively young age. So we talk allabout that. What's it like to be the first, not only sales higher, but firstwe'll go to market commercial higher. What were the first steps that he took?How do they land their first deal? You know, how is he thinking about hiringand expanding and scaling the team. So if that's your role, if that's theworld that you live in or want to live in or aspire to live in. This is theepisode for you. So without further ado, let's get straight into my conversationwith cal all right, we've got Callum woodcock coming from to us from acrossthe pond. Callum, How are you this evening? Yeah, I'm very well expectedto him very well. How you doing? I'm doing well man, I'm doing well. It'snot every day that the podcast guest has has a suit on or at least code on.So I'm feeling like you came ready to...

...play today. Yeah, absolutely. Wellwe've been in meetings all day. It's just the end of the working day rightnow. So I thought I'd keep my, my work outfit on. Stay true to my sales routes,you know, are people out there um, in the face to face mode? Like are peoplemeeting at, at offices and getting lunches and stuff or is it mostly Soyou know what, we're in this weird kind of twilight zone I think here in Londonwhere most people are now going back to the office, but everything stayed onzoom. So all of our discovery calls, all of our demos, I would say 99% ofthem are still over zoom or teams or whatever. So yeah, it seems reallystrange just going into the office to sit on zoom all day, but that's whatwe've decided to do. Got it okay. I'm always curious how how things haveprogressed, I'm I'm still working from home with no end in sight here in sanFrancisco, so who knows, but people in Miami and other places Austin, you know,they've been, they've been yucking it and they've been going to bars andsteak dinners for six months, so you know, everyone's different. So I wantto, I want to get to a bunch of different topics with you today first,let's let's start at the early days, let's start with um you know how youjoined the world of sales coming into, you know, most people in tech salesdon't have a major like financial institution background like Jpmorgan,so talk me through coming out of university, going there as your firstsales role. Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um so I think the kind oflong answer is I knew from a very early age when I was 17 or 18 that I wantedto be an entrepreneur or at least I wanted to play like a key role in theearly phase of building a business, right? My dad has built a fewbusinesses, in fact he's building a SAAS company right now and he's in hisearly sixties and I think that kind of inform my thinking from quite a youngage um and then you know when I was a college or university is recorded herein the UK doing my bachelor's degree, I...

...was trying to figure out what I wantedto do and I read Rich dad, Poor dad, that kind of famous book or whateverand whether you like it or hate it. Part of the advice in that the authorgives is if you are, you know, non technical, so I'm not a computerscientist, I like building relationships, but if you're nontechnical, you want to be an entrepreneur then learn how to sell.Like that's the key advice he gives. And in that book he recommends tryingto get onto like a blue chip sales grad scheme. So I took it at face value andyeah, ended up joining checking organ nice. Um, what was it like? They'relike a lot of training, a lot of cold calls like what was the deal there? Idon't know much about the sales culture. Yeah. So it's as you'd expect from acompany, you know, as large and as well resources as JPMorgan, they've got thisawesome training program in place. It's called the sp the advanced salesprogram and at least within the financial services sector is kind ofknown as the gold standard. So you get like an incredible amount of coaching,an incredible amount of mentoring and you know what the interesting thingabout selling the product that I was selling. So I was selling investmentfunds and obviously when you're selling a tech solution, that solution doesn'tchange much, right? You can kind of learn the key points and keep sellingit. I didn't realize at the time, but selling funds is ahead of a lot harderbecause the markets change all the time. You have to constantly think of newways of positioning them and yeah, of course, as you said, that's involved alot of cold course. So yeah, I spent a couple of years they're really learninghow to sell, moved from kind of a purely cold calling roll into more onaccount management role I suppose. And then yeah, after a couple of years Idecided that I was ready to take the leap, start moving towards a job andstarts up, man. Okay, and did you go straight from there to to know me, oh,do you have a Exactly. So yeah, a couple of years after I started workingat J. P. You know, I was I was really interesting to get started, you know,and to move into a startup, ideally an early stage startup. But with so manyof these things I really had no idea how to make that transition. So my wayof doing things was I wanted to immerse...

...myself in, you know, where I saw allthese entrepreneurs coming from and in the UK, you get a lot of great startupscoming out of Oxford and Cambridge and Cambridge. Running masters basically inbusiness and entrepreneurship and I thought, okay this could be a bit of astepping stone for me, I can meet those entrepreneurs, I can either figure outan idea or come on board with one of their companies, but at the same time,you know, I wanted to stay in a job, I wanted to pay the bill, so it's parttime masters, so from JP I moved to scale up where I was working at as an aeffectively or a business development manager they call it, but I knew thatwas gonna be a stepping stone for me and then, you know, you need likeCambridge have pretty wild networks as you can imagine, and I came across No,me while I was going into my final semester there and I think, you know,at the time, josh, who's our, our ceo and founder was looking for acommercial director basically to take the product to market, start iteratingtowards product market fit, and it was the first commercial higher thebusiness has been in the R and D phase up until that point and yeah, I meanthe product was incredible. It was, it was very clear that they builtsomething pretty unique And facing the opportunity like that, you know,figuring out who we can serve, heading up sales and marketing and whatever assomeone in their late 20s, it was pretty much a no brainer for me. Sothere were a couple of stepping stones from JP two formula, was there anyhesitancy for you, I know you mentioned You wanted to get into early stage, youwanted to get into more of an entrepreneurship role, but I imagine acouple of years at a company like Jpmorgan that has probably what?100,000 employees probably pretty okay, okay, probably pretty well paying some,some nice perks um you know, like did did you do that kind of like low you oror create any hesitancy for you or were you gung ho on this mission? You know,it was a, it's a great, that's a great question. I think my mom was definitelykeen for me to stay at JPMorgan, I...

...think she liked her friends as moms areexactly right, but now I think she, you know, in terms of me personally, I waspretty ready to move on and I think if you're, you know, the kind of personthat does well in the start of environment, the thing that appeals toyou is the risk and is the uncertainty and you know, ironically my biggestfear was to become one of those people that just kind of slept, walked into acareer And you know, woke up one day at 45 years old to find that I wasmanaging director or vice president of something and that had been my wholecareer. So now I was always, I was always, I joined knowing that at somepoint I was going to be moved, I was going to be moving on, but yeah, thereare less kind of free lunches and stuff in startup land? Yeah, exactly, atleast for now. So you get hired as the first, the first go to market higher.Is that fair? Or just first? The first, the first commercial higher. So I wasemployee number three. So I joined the team and it was josh, the founder. Um,and then to developers. Okay, so you get the first sales hire firstcommercial higher rather you know, you're in your late twenties, you know,effectively haven't done this before. Right? So like what's your walk methrough? I want to get into the, into the tactics a little bit like what didyou do like well what's the first step that you take in a position like that?Yeah, so I think for me it was an interesting one because they were awarebased on the fact they were all technical, the fact they're allcomputer scientists that they had built something extraordinary. But when Ijoined, I think it's fair to say this, we were what, you know why Combinatorcall a solution looking for a problem. Right. So we had a couple of designpartners, early paying customers who kind of informed the build of theproduct But at the same time we needed to work out where the value of theproduct could be best applied. So to give you a little bit of context,they're created this way of capturing data from documents with like thehighest level of accuracy on the markets in 99% plus the closest anyonehad come before. That was 60, They built something they knew was reallycool. But then the first rule of...

...gaining traction is don't try and boilthe ocean, right? You know, if you try and serve too many people too manydifferent sectors or whatever it wants, you're gonna spread yourself too thin,you're not going to really understand each individual sector the way that youshould. And so I think my priority was to find, you know, a beachhead, if youlike, a market that was relatively small, ideally based in the UK becauseagain, time differences and spreading ourselves too thin uh and who reallyneeded the functionality that we offered. So that was always thestarting point. And you also have to draw some assumptions about the product.So when you're looking at the functionality that nominal provides, itbasically makes really complicated documents instantly understandable. Sowe knew that we had to find industries where they were managing massivecontracts in terms of value Sure, but also in terms of length we knew theyhad to contain loads of obligations that needed managing ideally they hadto last a number of years. So there might be people who are managing thesecontracts, leaving the business, others coming in. And so that kind of led usto the infrastructure sector. And yeah, we've we've kind of run from there.Yeah. So it's like you find that first customer that like you said, thebeachhead that you can then use for reference points that you can use tokind of gain some momentum, uses a testimonial or you know, referrals oror try to just launch from there. How was the, how I guess, how quick did youdo that? Like how long did it take to to land that, that first kind of likedominus that Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I joined the business inMarch and I think we, you know, we we haven't necessarily closed those kindof first early sales in april, but we've certainly found the beach had tostart it. And that really came about. You know, once we have identified thekind of core parts of the product that we thought were the most impressive andmost unique. We set out to find industries that we could serve withthose with those particular features. And that started as so many of thesethings do with me talking to my immediate network. So friends, friendsand friends, their contacts, um some...

...random random people that we contactedon linkedin who were kind enough to get back to us. And that really led us downthis rabbit hole where, you know, we started looking at legal companies,that property companies, but eventually, you know, someone suggested therenewable energy space and that was super super interesting. So once you'vegot a bit of a focus, you can find out more about it before I approachedanyone in the industry, I went on a load of job site, which sounds soundsstupid, right? But completely by chance we found a job description, like amajor, major european energy company that was basically hiring someone forquite a significant amount of money to do the exact job that our productslargely automated. And once you see something like that, you know, you'resolving a problem for them. And then that was a matter of reaching out to bethe hiring manager with a quick overview of what we did. And basicallyasking the question, you know, hey, I saw this job description, would thisfunctionality be useful from you? And yeah, we set up a call and we've, we'vegone from there. I love it. I love it. And then from there, once you get thatinitial domino, everything just gets easier right, then, you know, kind ofthe target you can find look alikes, definitely like, I think the key thingis that you start understanding the problem. So you, from speaking to those,that first customer, you get a sense of, you know how much of an issue this isin the industry and with the particular customer that we started speaking to,we knew they were a major european player. And the chances are that ifthey hadn't found a solution to solve this problem that no one else in thesector would have, right. And it was also a great reference points. So theyrecommended us to a few people in the sector, we had a load of inboundinterest and then to move on. So our Ceo always talks about expanding ourfootprint from that kind of initial beachhead, if you like in likeconcentric circles, right? So you saturate one sector and you move to thenext. And it naturally really happens when you're having those many that manyconversations and especially when you offer some functionality that prospectsperhaps haven't seen before they go, oh yeah, this is awesome for our use case,but actually it could also serve this sector as well. So we ended up inbasically expanding into the public private partnerships sector two, whichis building and running schools and...

...hospitals and all those biginfrastructure projects off the back of a conversation we originally had withsomeone that ran, you know, a load of wind farms in Scotland. So it's amazinghow it can occur very organically once you've got that initial bit attraction.Mhm and talk to me about, you know, hiring out the team, right? Obviouslyyou're the first person on the commercial side. How many do you haveand go to market today? So and go to market, let's see there's five of us atpresent, we're about to be six. I think hiring out the teams are a reallyinteresting one for us. We knew we were going to have to be customer successheavy, there is a short onboarding time. The customers we were dealing with, weknew were gonna want a point of contact of the business. So we started bybuilding out a customer success team. We hired this awesome lady called Anyawho had turned down to left Cambridge. So she was super smart, turned downClifford chance, the, you know, the magic circle law firm to join nominal,which was pretty humbling and we've kind of grown from there. But I mean myexperience of hiring was, it was pretty interesting. So we just brought on anSDR because we now more understand the markets were targeting. We know ourmessaging, we understand, you know, where we can, where we can positionourselves within that market. But until you've achieved that, I think you canspend a lot of money in the wrong places. So there's not a lot of pointsin, you know, investing in linkedin ads and, and paid search and big marketingor a growth hacker kind of person because you can throw good money awayjust by pursuing the wrong messaging, pursuing the wrong demographics,pursuing the wrong target market effectively until you've really lockedit down. So if I was to advise anyone again on, on my role as if you need theextra outbound firepower, which of course everyone does in the early days,right. And either you don't have the money to hire a full time str or youperhaps aren't sure it'd be worth the investment in an SDR at this pointbecause we're still establishing your...

...market, then hire an intern genuinelyhire an intern, we bought on an intern called ali for two months this summerjust gone. He was in his second year of college, basically had no kind ofcommercial experience to talk to talk of and because you're working such aclose knit team, you pick up so much so quickly by the end of the first months,you know, he was consistently booking meetings and even like optimizing ourprocesses and stuff. So yeah, I think the main thing is work out who you needto go to the next step and try and keep it like that. It's very easy,particularly when you're playing with venture money, you know, to pour moneyinto hiring or raising another round, but until you're sure of what marketyou're going after. Yeah, be strategic I suppose. But here you are. So how about for the type of personyou're looking for for the scr roll? Because um, it's probably differentthan who Jpmorgan is looking for or who Salesforce's hiring as an SDR. Right?Because not only is there the tough job of booking the meetings and all thethings that are required of an SDR, but they're also somewhere where you are inthe early stages of, you know, traction with customers and prospects and it'svery likely that when they call someone, they won't know who you folks are in alot of cases. So, anything unique that you think that, that you've done to tryto weed people out or ask particular questions or anything to to find theright SDR for this particular type of company. Yeah, definitely. So it wasinteresting when we were hiring for this particular role, I think bothmyself and Josh were quite certain the idea, we didn't necessarily needsomeone from a sales background. And I think that was really important by theincident that I was mentioning coming in, we saw them do very well becausethey were coming into a role with no preconceptions, right? They weren'tthinking this is how we used to do it at dawn, or this is how we used to doit at Jpmorgan and it gives them an opportunity to kind of craft their ownstyle, obviously with our guidance. So, I think the first thing that we'relooking for is we knew they had to be really smart. We're at the stage nowwhere we need a lot of talented...

...generalists who aren't going to benecessarily limited by their job description. So they're not going tothink, okay, actually, you know, I'm an str I just do this, we're at the stagenow where people have to kind of muck in at every different part of a part ofthe company. We needed someone that was up for that, frankly, because for a lotof people they want to go into a company. They want to specialize in arole. It's what they're told to do throughout their throughout their livesand the build up to starting a career and I think it took it was very clearfrom our interview process. The people that were serious about joining astartup because similar to me, they liked the idea of jumping into theunknown to some degree and building something out of nothing. And those whokind of want today, you know, a cushy job with a very clear structure to it,where they could, you know, be sure of where they were going to end up in acouple of years time. So I think that willingness to plunge into the unknown,that kind of natural intellect was very important. And then, you know, itsounds kind of stupid but I think you can tell from you know, we had a verystructured interview process. So we had a number of people come through butthey have to get on with the team And I know that sounds so obvious in everycompany says that, but it is amplified when you're a team of you know, 89 10people because one person that's not drinking the kool Aid right, can kindof derail the whole culture And at this point when you've got such an embryonicculture, that's a massive risk. So the SDR ended up hiring super smart, supersuper driven guy. But we just when we interviewed him, we just saw him as anatural fit. So I think culture is very important to mm let's talk about techfor a few minutes. Obviously, early days of building out the commercialteam, Probably not a ton of budget to go around, but I'm sure there are a fewtools that you probably invested in or are considering investing in. What doesthat look like for you? Yeah, definitely. This is where you want meto say going, right. But this is, this is the case study. No, I'm just kidding.No. So the first thing I found it interesting. So when I walked into anominee josh and the rest of the development team were like Evangelicalabout using notion. So for your...

...listeners that don't know notion isalmost this very flexible project management system. So we use it as aninternal internet. You know, we log everything to it. It's where we storeall of our ideas. Marketing collateral are key company documents is where Imanage my pipeline at the moment. I know you you'll be horrified by that.But I think in fact, you know, the ability to utilize notion was even inthe job description for my role. So if you haven't seen the ocean, definitelycheck it out at the same time. You know, we're at this, we're at the beginningof that kind of hyper growth trajectory, we've gained that initial attraction.We're scaling up to series a the moment the team gets much bigger, particularlythe commercial side on the sales side, I was very aware we're gonna need toCrm and there is nothing worse than implementing a Crm and then having topopulate it with data and so I wanted to collect that from the beginning. Sowe use hubspot crm every conversation and email that we sent, we log tohubspot automatically. But if I'm totally honest at this stage, we rarelydip into it at this stage of its growth. It's it's mainly just this log thatwe're keeping because we know in a year's time or six months time when westart building out a team that's gonna become like our single source of truth,right? You know when we get to the point that like collaborating on agoogle sheet or whatever isn't a viable option and then in terms of other techwe use a product called mix max but running our sequences, if you haven'theard of them, they are really awesome, provides some incredibly detailedanalytics so you can see what's working and what's not. And when you're testingmessaging, obviously that's invaluable, then Lincoln sales Navigator, I can'tunderstand how people can get an effective sales process without it. Umand then everything you'd expect like zoom hangouts teams however are ourcustomers want to speak to us in these pandemic days. Yeah. How how have youprioritize, I mean crm goes without saying, I think for most people. SalesNavigator goes out saying how did you prioritize mix max versus myunderstanding of them is more, it's more of a competitor to like Callen leeand chili piper than it is to like...

...outreach and sales loft. Is that fairinteresting? So, so they do have that calendar functionality as well. In fact,I think that's where they originated. Um, but they have obviously realizedtheir utility and almost being like a kind of a sales loft light, like anoutreach light. So you can still send sequences and collect analytics andeverything. And it's great for when the team is small, you know, do we move toone of the bigger players down the line? Possibly. But at the moment it's kindof perfect for our needs. So yeah. Okay. That's great. That's great. That'shelpful. Um, so let's talk about, we talked about all the great things thatyou've done so far in the role. I'm curious for someone that might bestepping into a similar role. What are any mistakes that you made that youwould advise someone walking into your shoes to not take Yeah, that's a greatquestion. I mean, I don't think mistake. I'm joking. Um, so I think if I'mtotally honest, we, you know, the normal website at the moment as youprobably see now is still very much a landing page. It's basically like, thisis what the product does look at all of our investors right and that's fine inthe very early days, but we're getting to the stage now where I feel likewe're gaining customers in spite of it rather than because of it. So I thinkinvesting in a website, so you look professional very early on is probablypretty important. We're playing catch up with that now, we're designing stuffas we speak. And I hadn't fully understood how important that was. Andthe reason for that was because we were speaking to so many people, theconversations were going well, you know, they were being progressed down thepipeline, but where it becomes super valuable having a very, reallyprofessional looking website, it's very easy to navigate, very easy for peopleto find the use cases that apply to them the information they need isn'twhen you're speaking to, you know, your key point of contact at a business,it's when they're speaking about you internally, right? So when the firstthing, I'm sure I definitely do it, I'm sure you do too. When you hear about anew business, the first thing I do is google that, right? And when you have aone page website, that doesn't tell you...

...much, it's, you know, that that canonly be a bad thing. So we're we should have invested or I should have investedour website earlier. And then the second thing is marketing collateral.So we made the decision consciously, very early on to basically producecollateral as and when prospects and customers ask for it, which is a kindof a lazy thing to do. So for ages we were kind of managing with, you know,like a two pager that we put together, but I think having some detailedbranding collateral, you know, have it on a paragraph, have it on a page, haveit in a deck, depending on the level of detail that customers want to see.Because what we found is we've started speaking to bigger and bigger companies,uh, they have different standards that they expect and I think a very smallinvestment in that collateral early on can save you a lot of time when stuffstarts to get busy and you start gaining traction. Um, so yeah, I'd saythose, those have been more to two key takeaways. That's great. And you'vebeen doing a job that you hadn't done before, right? You're kind of buildingthe plane as it flies, so to speak. What resources have been helpful to youthrough that process of any like by that. I mean, any books, any podcasts,blogs, people, you fall in linkedin, anything that, that you've kind oftuned into that has been a good resource, totally. Well, I mean, interms of podcasts, obviously yours tom that's a great question because, youknow, I've always been quite proactive, I suppose in in trying to understandhow best to sell, learning you marketing techniques, whatever it mightbe. And when I was a rep I found new sales simplified by Mike Weinberg aslike a really awesome resource. Um It's very rare and that it's the sales bookcompletely without like fluff right? Without padding. It's just reallyactionable content. It really gives you a formula to succeed. But of coursewhen you're stepping into a position like mine where yeah of course, youknow in the early days you're still very much on the front line selling. Ihope I kind of always will be to a degree but you need to also understandwhere that fits into the wider...

...operational strategy of the business.And there I found predictable revenue by Aaron ross to be a super relevantresource. I'm sure you've had a number of guests that have said the same thing,like it's 10 years old now but it just gives you this really clear methods bywhich to scale the business and especially around the systems that youshould put in place. Um so those who definitely gosh, in terms of links andinfluences, I mean I follow a load of sales influences. I find a lot of theircontent really valuable but you know, the original, the O. G version of thePavilion podcast or the revenue collected podcast as well as the soundsound Jacobs has been a real go to and then the final thing is find mentorslike we've been incredibly lucky with our angel investors. Um there's aMichael Marcus Excell who's kind of a close mentor, both josh and I's, who'sbeen there, done it all before and just having someone you can pick the phoneup to, he's done it before and just to say, hey, are we doing this right? Andyou can give you reassurance, will tell you where to redirect your focus issuper valuable. Um, and that's where the, you know, the Pavilion kind ofmentor mentorship scheme as well has been super, super useful. How much timedo you spend with other angel investors or company investors that to help kindof guide the mission or, or do you generally just pick like one or ahandful that you've really gotten along well with and, and kind of take theiradvice. How did, how does that work for you? Yeah, no, that's a great question.Um, so we have kind of a, I suppose I've got kind of two key points ofcontact amongst our investors so I can go to for advice. You know, we're verylucky in that a round was led by Kindred and Sequoia Kindred capital. Uh,one of those amazing VCS where they're there if you need them, they're nottrying to, you know, really push you to change strategy at any point, butthey're like, look, this is our network, use it. Right. So I've spoken to a loadof people in my role at different, you know, different portfolio companieswithin Kindred network and that's been...

...super, super valuable in terms of ouractual angel investment network, I kind of know they're always there, but Ishould be utilizing them more. I suppose it's just some of these, someof these big names running companies like hop in and test in intimidating totalk to you. Right? Yeah, yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Um, the last pieceI want to get to with you is um, you know, obviously Pavilion is a resourcecommunity to help people connect and learn from each other. What's one tipthat you have for, you know, networking or building business relationships?Yeah, definitely. So I think the main thing is ask give without askinganything in return and that sounds so obvious, but it kind of informs oursales philosophy as well. So, you know, tom, I think this conversationoriginally came about by me getting in touch and mentioning how much I lovethe pod and that's happened over and over again. You know, I'm always verytouched if someone reaches out to me to say, hey, I, you know, I saw you did xor I saw you did why? Um, I really liked it. And then those kind ofinitial conversations where you don't ask for anything in return so oftenlead to a coffee or, you know, a lunch or a deal even or even featuring on apodcast. Right? So I think I think that would be my key takeaway, which I foundto be amazing. Like the generosity of other people to spend time with you.And, and that, that key thing as well, like give without asking. And then, youknow, if you want, especially we're looking for advice rather than anythingelse. If it's, if that's the genuine, the general, the genuine reason for,for for for getting in contact, sometimes it is great just to ask, youknow, so many people kind of sit there in silence and say, okay. Actually, Idon't really want to, you know, I don't want to risk reaching out to thisperson or they might say no or they might ignore me. And honestly, so what,you know, if you get ignored 10 times, one person saying yes could have amassive impact on the life and career. So I think it's always worth it. So toslightly contradictory answers there. Um, but yeah, that's definitely what Ifound anyway. I love it. Um, calum this has been great. I appreciate youspending some time with us here. What is the best place if folks want toconnect with, you get to learn, learn...

...more about Romeo, learn more about you,What's the best place to do that? Yeah, definitely. So, um, I'm on Lincoln allthe time. So if they want to go on my linkedin, it's just linkedin dot comforward slash in forward slash Callum woodcock or for one words and then myname's c a double l um, or if they want to drop me an email, its calendar dotwoodcock Romeo dot com. Always keen to hear from a listener of this podcast.Awesome Callum. I appreciate it, man. No problem. Thanks Tom. Thanks so muchfor checking that episode out of the Pavilion podcast again, you can hit meup on linkedin. My name's Tom Alaimo. Otherwise, this episode was brought toyou by Sandoz. So they deliver modern direct mail, personalized gifts andother physical impressions that make your outreach more personal until nextweek. See you on monday. Get after it. Peace. Mhm.

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