The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 51: Bring Drift To A Digital-First World w/ David Cancel

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Ep 51: Bring Drift To A Digital-First World w/ David Cancel 

All right, everybody happy Monday. Welcome back to the revenue Collective podcast. This is your host, Tom Alaimo. This is where we help revenue leaders the VPs, the C suite, the aspiring leaders to up level their skill set, grow their career, find the best opportunities and ultimately get one step closer to where they want to get to in their career. So thank you for tuning in. I'm Tom Alamo. Work over at gone. Do some help here for the revenue collective podcast. And, uh, I'm grateful that you're here with me on this Monday and trying to level up before I get to today's content. Let me just give a quick word from our sponsor. So this month, sponsor of the podcast is six cents. Six cents is the number one account engagement platform, and it helps you to identify accounts that are in market for your solution. Prioritize your efforts, engage buyers the right way with highly relevant messaging and measure what actually matters with the Sixth Sense platform. You're able to get into more deals improve when rates increase overall pipeline optimized budget. Spend to learn more, visit six cents dot com slash revenue Collective. Today's guest. I'm beyond fired up for this one. You know, let me tell you, I've got d. C. David can't sell the founder and CEO of Drift. You have almost certainly heard of them. If you haven't, you've got to go check it out. And D. C. Is one of the most inspirational people in the tech world in the SAS world and the leadership world that I know of Had a few conversations with him over the years and, uh, you know, always feel smarter every time I talk with him or hear him speak or even read his writing. So, you know, we talked about a lot of things we talk about, you know, he just brought Drift digital first, right And what that means and why he did that in today's economy. And really, he went from, you know, hard stance on an office. First culture to digital. First, I think is interesting. And I think a lot of founders are going to start following in his footsteps. We talk about, you know, his dichotomy between being a product lead founder, but also an amazing marketer, an amazing sales person also being an introvert. So we do talk about that dichotomy we talk about. You know, some of his life philosophies, the books, the mental models, the virtual models. I mean, the virtual mentors that he has, the way he thinks taking time to think and reflect as a leader. If there's one podcast that you listen to, it should be this one. If you're trying to be a better leader, there's not many people that I would refer to before. David can't sell before d. C. So this is where I stop talking and we cut to the conversation with D. C real quick. If you found value in this podcast, just go to Apple. You can leave us A five star review would love to hear from you. You can hit me up on LinkedIn. My name is Tom Alaimo. Without further ado, let's get to David. Can't sell for this week's conversation. All right, D C. Good morning. Welcome to the revenue Collective podcast. How you doing? I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. Where are you? Where are you dialing in from on the somewhere on the East Coast, I imagine. Yeah. I'm hunkered down in Boston right now wishing for warmer weather. But I'm I'm a native New Yorker. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I didn't know if, uh, with the quarantine, if you had decided to get out of the city or go somewhere warm or somewhere you know more, Uh, you know, spacious or anything like that. But you're you're in the city. Yeah, I'm in the city. I kind of alternate between here in a place I have up in Vermont, and But I have been escaping to the warm weather. Will be going to Miami next week. Nice. Nice. That's, uh that's the new scene. That's like the hot spot that that that text going to maybe is Miami. From what?...

It seems like the mayor is pulling out all the stops. Yeah, hopefully I don't never come back. I, you know, being in in, uh, Boston founded company. And then, you know, I know you have some operations out here in San Francisco and, you know, fairly new in in Tampa Bay. I mean, there's gotta be something about the Tom Brady connection from Boston to Tampa Bay. I'm not gonna say he went there because Drift opened offices there a year or two ago, but I don't know if it's a coincidence. I'm just going to say we opened that office long before Tom Brady decided to quit the Patriots and head to Tampa Bay. Maybe maybe, maybe once he's wrapped up, he'll have that competitive fire. He'll get into sales and enjoying drift. That would be that would be a hell of a story. That's a total takeover. Um, so I want to get into, you know, a few things with you today and, um, you know, most notably, you know, I saw that you came out, you know, the other week, talking about drip stance on really the future of work, right, and being virtual first or digital first, which is totally counter to what I think the original intent was with the company and what you've been doing the last few years of really trying to foster a great community in the different offices, especially the HQ in Boston. So tell me a little bit about what that decision was like and what led to kind of changing your strategy moving forward there. Yeah, that was a That was a tough one. So, you know, when we started the company. We we made a deliberate decision to be having in the office kind of environment and culture. So Aaliyah's Who's my co founder myself had worked together several times, started a couple companies together, and one of those companies, the first one that we worked together at was a company I started in 2000 and seven, where he joined his VP of engineering. That was a remote only company, right? And, uh, and over time, what happened is that we had people all over the world a big concentration in San Francisco, a bigger concentration in Boston and then people and lots of different global locations. And over time, we ended up opening an office in Boston because we had so many of the product and engineering team here. And what I saw happen was that I saw that you know, this this, you know, unlevel playing field started to emerge where the remote people, even the concentration that was in San Francisco, who didn't have an office felt left out of the conversation, felt left out of, you know, uh, their influence in the office. And I thought in the end, you know, when I looked back that it led to this kind of inequitable kind of system or playing field. And so when we started drift, we wanted to be deliberate. We're either going to be all remote or all in office. We chose in office, and we developed this amazing in office culture. We had offices in Boston. We still do. Boston, San Francisco, Tampa, Seattle. We were about to open an office in London in, uh, February March of of 2019. Of course I've got derailed and we had this kind of I was trying to explain it to someone yesterday. Someone asked me about it because they had been to the office and they said, How do you reproduce that? Because we had this kind of life, this energy, this force that that in the office, the only way I describe it as like I'm a native New Yorker. And like when you go to certain cities like New York, they they seem to have an energy on their own right, no matter what, they have an energy to have a beat to it. And we had that in the office, and and so it was a hard decision. But one that I felt that we spent a lot of time trying to decide on. And I wanted the team to be able to move on to the next step. And I had been telling them since the beginning of the pandemic that I thought we were going through this. We have gone through this one way door, meaning, like that the world would never be the same because we had gone through this massive global trauma and I didn't know what was going to be on the other side. But, you know, the more that we got to working throughout this thing, we hired 100 and 20 people, you know, all remotely since the beginning of pandemic. And so it was working. We were productive. And so we made this decision to go digital first. Yeah, you kind of brought up that question of like, how do you re create that energy...

...and that magic I found personally, you know, I love being in an office I love, especially as a salesperson, the energy that can be on a sales floor. And I feel like that's really hard to translate over, you know, somewhere like slack particularly, and maybe a little bit easier over zoom. But how are you translating all of that energy and and passion that, you know, the drift team has virtually Are there any different strategies that you're using or that the teams using? I don't think we've perfected it yet. I think we continue to iterate and I think you know us going from a pretty hardcore in office culture to pretty hardcore now digital first one like, you know, we were showing that we're willing to evolve and learn. And so we continue to we think of the drift as a learning machine, the company and we think of all the drifters as individual learning machines, and so things will always change. But I think we were lucky in that we have developed a core culture core kind of set of rituals and leadership principles which we define pretty early in the company and these rich we have weekly rituals. We call them rituals because I consider them different than meetings. They are really a place that a certain thing happens that people can count on in the company and so new people can count on it. Old people can count on it And so, like, you know, I think of them more as rituals. And so we had longstanding rituals and the company that continue and are easy, you know, Not the same, but easy to do. Virtually. And so those continued. I think those are the things that really hold the energy together. I agree, you know, slack. You know, I barely log into slack these days. Um, there was a time early in the company where I was in slack all the time, but I've moved more to, and I'm trying to get everyone to move more towards a synchronous communication. So we use our own product drift video we use, you know, we felt we do internal podcast. We do all sorts of stuff, but, like, move more towards a synchronous things. Especially now that we have people all over the world. Yeah, and what was the process? Because I know you brought on, you know, you said you hired over 100 folks. I think one of them was a c r. O. In the last definitely the last year. So what's that hiring strategy like when you haven't met the people in person, Especially for an executive If there's folks out here that are C suite or VP level that are hiring, you know, at the executive level, how do you translate that? Virtually when you haven't met the people in person. You can't see that body language. You can't feel their energy in the room. It's It's definitely a different experience. Yeah, the you know, you mentioned the c r O higher. So, Todd, who came on as our zero in April, April, May of 2019. I want to say, you know, the 9 2000. Yeah, 2020. And, uh so he he was really the person that really change my mind on whether we could go digital first or not. And it was because I had this, even though we were new company, you know, we are digitally native, you know, we are product enables that I still had this kind of barrier in my own mind where I thought, you know, like we could hire lots of people and we were hiring lots of people. But I don't know if we could hire the most senior roles. You know, the C level roles without meeting these people. And so we went through the hiring process and we had to search open for a year. We were meeting lots of people. We never met Todd in person. We did everything virtually phone call, zoom, etcetera. And, uh, you know, But in the back of my mind during that hiring, I think I thought that at some point again, we didn't know what was happening with the pandemic, that we would meet him during the before we made the higher. Of course, we didn't end up meeting him. He has since hired five VPs. This in the same way that worked for him. And he's totally, like, opened my eyes like this is possible. We hired the most senior person. They are incredibly productive. They have hit the ground running. They have assimilated into the culture. They have elevated the culture in lots of ways, especially on the sales and success side of things. And...

...so, like it is possible. So, like my own ceiling, my own mental ceiling was broken during this thing, and because of him and because of what we saw, that that helped make this decision of going digital first a lot easier for myself. But you know in terms of how did we bring them on board? I think again we were fortunate. We did some unusual things early in the company when we were 30 to 50 people. We spent a lot of time codifying our leadership principles are available on our website. If anyone's interested really spent a lot of time doing that really spent a lot of time training them myself and Elias, who's my co founder. We created videos, curriculum training we really created, invested in this curriculum internally. And we, you know, we had a pretty detailed on boarding process that every born in the company went through. We created certifications for conversation, marking conversational sales, etcetera internally first and now those are publicly available, and we have thousands of people have gone through that. So we had this structure which you know, wasn't normal in my past. Companies that could let someone from the outside assimilate into what we were doing a lot simpler than in the past. Yeah, and you've talked a lot about already just about, you know, opening up your own mind and some of the limits that you've had. And I know that you're a big fan of mental models and things like that. You know, something that I was curious about is you have such a your background, I believe, is in product right and creating products and obviously being an entrepreneur. But when I think of you, I I think of just a marketing. You know, I don't know if genius is the right word or or whatever it might be, but just a great marketer and taking a lot of great timeless strategies and bringing it to be to be, which is normally kind of a boring marketing space. I'm curious. If that was, if that's a natural instinct in you to really focus on that marketing, or was it something that you had to be really disciplined on? Because I've heard you say, You know, you're introverted. Naturally, you know, you do have that product background, which usually those two ideas can can kind of clash of this product should sell itself versus hey, we need to actually go create a market for it. I will tell you it's the most unnatural thing possible for me, uh, to and it's funny because I meet a lot of people now in the kind of drift context and they consider me a marker And they're like, Oh, you're a market. I'm like, uh, you know, that's so funny because I have had to work so hard at it. It's the most unnatural thing for me. Uh, as you mentioned, I like I'm super. I'm naturally introverted. You know, I'm most comfortable alone reading a book like, you know, like, I don't like I don't like being in the spotlight. I don't like attention. I don't like public speaking. Basically all the things I do now, like I don't naturally like those things. So it's actually hard work for me. But, you know, when we started, my background is being an engineer. So I was an engineer, software engineer And, you know, on that spectrum of an engineer, like usually as you said, like a lot of them are shy, introverted, you know, like don't you know, kind of a lot of qualities that I have. I will say that looking back at my career, you know, I'm probably a little bit more extroverted than most of them. Not much, but a little bit, because that was always my secret. Early in my career, where and That's what led me into building products for marketing and sales because I always had an empathy I could always have a conversation with. And I liked having conversations with people on the sales floor, marketers, etcetera, that and you know, they always saw that early in my career when I was, like, 22 they were like, Oh, you should be the manager of the engineering team And I was like, What? I'm 22 like, I have no experience. And it was because I was the only one from that team who would actually communicate with the business owners with the business users. And so it's a little bit more natural for me, but in terms of like learning, marketing and being a marketer, unnatural. But when I started drift, I really thought about okay, I've been doing fast for a long time now. What's different now? Why now? Why start the company now? What do we have to do differently? And one of the things that are really focused on was I thought we were in this. I call it this third phase of sass, right? I thought,...

...like the first phase. I think all markets go through this like the first phase I call like the Edison phase, and that's like pure discovery, like That's like you can hide behind, you know, patents and trade secrets and things like that. Because the thing that you're building the product, the service, whatever is, like, so difficult to replicate from a technology standpoint that that is, you know, your mote. And, you know, that was the first phrase assess that was, you know, back in 2000, like it was hard to even figure out how to build this stuff you couldn't Google. How do you build these SAS based products? How do you process payments, etcetera like that? Then you moved into the second stage, which was, you know, I call it the fourth stage, and that was like, Okay, now it's mass production, and that's when I did a company like Perform Herbal. That's when I was at HUBSPOT. That's when you saw companies like Zendesk, etcetera. All these companies emerge where it was. Really, it wasn't technology that was the motive was like business process. It was long before many of us knew what LTV CAC was before we knew, like how to build And what inside sales versus you know, outside sales versus premium like how to blend those things were customer success was like we didn't know what those things were. Obviously, we all know what that is now. And so because of that, I think we're in the third phase of SAS, which is I call the Procter and Gamble phase, which is like, All right, there's thousands of alternatives that can be reproduced from a technology and a business model standpoint easily, anywhere in the world. You're competing on a global level. So how do you stand out? How do you and you have to build a brand? I believe, right. You have to build a brand. You have to build a brand that has affinity with a certain type of customer who's going to choose you over someone else. And so I began studying, you know, obsessively this idea of creating a brand and marketing and all that stuff, not what led to me becoming known as a marketer today who are some of your favorite brands. You know, in any context that that you aspire to be or that have inspired you. Well, one that really you know, influence drift in the early days was Patagonia for a whole bunch of reasons, especially the kind of eat dose behind Patagonia and the founder and some of the stuff that he wrote, you know, let my people go surfing one. The book that even Shard wrote Who is the founder of Patagonia had a big influence on us. Obviously, brands like Nike are amazing in the constant state of reinvention, right and always feeling like they are new. And then there's a bunch of luxury brands that I'm obsessed with right now. You know, Louis Vuitton is a brand that I look at a lot, especially as they been able to take some of the, you know, street wear kind of influence and take that to a higher level, right? They took someone like Virgil a blow Who's the Who had a company called off White, Who's this amazing creative director had a streetwear brand called off White, and now he's the creative director for the men's line there, and you see that influence there. That's what keeps their edge in that constant state of reinvention. It's never, ever, ever technology or definitely not a B two B, but definitely not a technology company that I look at, you know, apples, one obviously. But I don't consider them a technology company. So kind of on that string, if I were to compare, you know that from the Louis Vuitton story, it's like my stretch would be hate. Something that we should do is be bringing in folks with different backgrounds, right? Or whether that be, you know who they are as a person, whether it be, you know, gender, ethnic backgrounds, even you know, the types of companies that they were at their age, all those different things, because that can help to influence and take drift, too. Whatever the 2021 version of your company is going to be right, because every year, maybe even less than that, it probably feels like a different company because of the new products and new people that are coming aboard, how the culture is changing. So is that maybe a correct takeaway from at least from that story, where it's like, Hey, let's bring in these different influences to help form a new creative mantra for where the company can go where the products can go and things like that Yeah, I would say two things. One I think you should always. And this is a habit I've had the entire...

...time I dressed and before you should always think about the company and yourself. Most importantly yourself as needing to be a different version every single year, like the beginning of every year, I think to myself, what is the next? What is this year's version of me in my role today, right. And every year it's got to change. Its got to progress. It's got to become something new. And, you know, I've tried to kind of bring people along in the company and say, like, Look, I'm going to be a different version. You're going to be You should be a different version But it's still, you know, no matter how much you talk about it, it's still unsettling is the wrong word. But it's like confusing right, because people who have been here early in the company so a very different version of me four years ago, you know where I was, like in everything in the middle of things and like now you know, I'm a very different version, and so they may look at that and say, like, Wow, DCs change Or like, what does he do now versus an accident? Just like we're at a different stage? We have to be a different version. We have to keep upgrading ourselves or else will fall behind. So, like I think that's super important. You should look at that from your own career and as a leader. But you should look at it from a company standpoint, too. But, you know, on your comment of bringing outside voices, I would say, You know, the most important thing is to always start backwards to always invert, which is how we think about things and like, start from, you know, who is your audience? Who is your customer like, What do they want? What do they look like? You know, What do they really get in the head? You know, back in the day, we used to think about things like personas, but like, persona is a little rigid. But like, just talk to your your community. Your customers like what do they look like? What are they interested in? Forget about your product or your service, like what are they reading, like, what do they care about like, just like go figure that out and then start to figure out, like, where the gaps in your company like, Do you have those voices inside or not? Do you have people that look like them care about the same things? Yes, no. And if not, let's start filling in those gaps so that we can build a tighter relationship with that customer base with that community based because we're going to look a lot more like them. You just talked about kind of talking to the customer yourself. I've heard you say something to the extent of whoever gets closest to the customer wins. If there's a V p of sales or VP of marketing or CR Oh, that's listening to this. How much time or what? What percentage? Maybe a range Should they be spending talking to prospects and customers hearing from them versus all of the myriad of other things that they need to do to run their side of the business? Sure, as a leader, I think I think about it on to two wins. I think like as a c R O. As a leader, I think you should be spending a good percent, I would say close to half of your time talking to your end customer and urine customers, both the literal customer who you sell to but also the individuals within your team, not just your manager is not just US VP, not just Europe's people. The individual sales reps. PDR is what have you like figuring that out? Because I feel like, you know, Sam Walton, who is the founder of Walmart, used to call that over the shoulder management. Unless you like, really hear directly first hand from those people. You don't really know what's going on, you know, managing through metrics and dashboards and graphs, and that's all nice. But that's all. Rear view mirror, right? You can make some inferences and predictions on that, but like you're looking back, you don't really know what's going on. And so you have to get down there. In the case of Sam Walton, he would literally get go to his WalMart stores. He would be in the stores. People wouldn't know who he was. He would be, you know, in the warehouses he would always just be trying to figure out what exactly is happening, because that's where you can get, you can see out ahead. I kind of think of that as that's your windshield. That's how you can see forward versus just looking backwards at what we what we did and how we performed. So I take close to 50%. I try to I try to live to. That's not easy, but that's the only source of truth. There is no truth inside the building. The truth is always outside the building. There isn't. There is absolutely no truth inside your building, right? So, like no matter what, no matter how objective you are, no matter how humble you are...

...like we all have biases. We all have different views, will have different agendas. We have different incentives like there is no truth inside. It's only outside. So, like, why wouldn't you do that? And I, you know, I always would. I find it interesting when I would talk to a leader or there was a c. R or not, and I would ask some questions about the individuals who may be many, many, many levels below them or, you know, on their team or their customer, and then and then how distant or how removed they were and how they would make excuses and say, Well, had a bunch of meetings don't have time. This, that whatever it's like, that's the only truth. Like you don't know anything, Really, unless you are close to the customer and close to the actual people who interface with your customers. Yeah, and by that I mean, that's Sam Walton's book is so good. Is so much information packed in there? And I think I find his story and his relentless nous just to be so inspirational. Just hearing his stories like he'll take the family on a road trip and he'll stop it. You know, 10 different stores across the country and pop into competitor stores. We'll go in, you know, on Saturday had the Saturday morning meetings all that stuff. I I love that story personally. Yeah, the that book has had the biggest. You know, I'm a crazy reader, but that because that's the biggest impact on my career and the way that I think. And so you know, I would say I have had three mentors named Sam, and one of them was virtually Sam Walton through that book, and my first mentor, Sam, had recommended that book to me, many I can't even tell you how many years ago, so many years ago. And what's so funny is like there's so many patterns in there. We have to learn from history. There's so many patterns in there that you can take to your business. And when Jeff Bezos started Amazon, he based everything and you can read in his principles. You can read in some of the books about the early days of Amazon. He based everything on that book he carried. He was they used to make fun of him because he carried a copy of Made in America, which is a book that we're talking about in his back pocket for years, and you can see so many things that they do today at Amazon, this amazing company that traced back to that book and when you read the book, you know that so many of the things that Sam did trace back to other companies JC Penney or other companies that he had seen, And so, like all of this is here for us to take. You know, we don't have to learn all these lessons on our own through brute force and pain. That's how I spent the first majority. Well, the majority of my career learning through proof, frost and pain just like everybody else. And like now I want to learn through some history. Yeah, Yeah, I think that ties well. I know you're a voracious reader learning machine, and it ties well, you you put something on instagram. This is a while ago about your life philosophy, and there was a number of different things, and and one of them said the time in between doing the things is where the breakthroughs happen. Make space for the magic to happen. AK stop doing so much. How does that tie into, You know, kind of what we're talking about here, where you are dropping these names and these stories from people in business and fashion and maybe in sports and arts and all these different genres where, you know, you're maybe taking a step back from the emails or the slack channels and thinking and reading and contemplating and how that's had effect on you as a leader. Yeah. This is, um I love that we're talking about this like I will say that it took me that most of my career was running, you know, starting companies running, doing acting, you know, like never stopping. And I was always, you know, one of the one of the other. A set of people that I really admire is and I've been obsessed with for countless years has been Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger from Berkshire Hathaway. And they would always talk about like, you know how they sit around and read all the time and, you know, and selfishly that's what I wanted to do. But that was never me. And I was like, How did they actually run a business doing this thing, just sitting around reading and processing ideas, and so, like, you know, that was always in the back of my mind, but I sort of dismissed it. I always thought, like work hard or more hours, you know, I was the person in my early Cos sleeping in the office like I...

...did all that stuff like and then, you know, I had a coach. I've had many coaches, but one of the coaches that I've had in recent histories, name's Brad Stolberg and I suggest people follow him like he comes more from the sports psychology side of things. But one thing that you learn overtime is that there is no sports psychology or business psychology or whatever. There's just psychology, right? So, like everything that we talked about was applicable, right? And so one of the things he had me read a book. And, uh, you know, one of the things that we would talk a lot about was just like getting comfortable with stopping right. And for many people that are hard charging, you know, high performance that are listening to this like this is most the most uncomfortable thing, you know. And the conversation was just like Just stop, Just be Don't do anything. Don't fit all Don't think about don't answer an email. Don't open the laptop. Don't just stop like learn to get comfortable. Just stopping. And maybe you have to put yourself in in different situations to make that happen, whether it's meditation going for walks, whatever doing you know, they're active ways that you can force this to happen, but like you have to be able to stop and just sit with yourself. And so that was really, really hard for me. But going through that practice and spending more time doing that. Then I started to notice like, Oh, wait. Like the real idea is the real breakthrough is the real You know, the real additive things that you can do for your role, your company, whatever are when you're synthesizing when you're processing all of the activity that you've done. And for most of us, were just in a constant state of activity. We never think we never process. We may think that we're thinking, but it's more that were react. We're not thinking when are processing, and so, like, that's been the biggest. Like I won't say hack because I hate that word. But like that's been the biggest like, you know, productivity gain. For me, it's just like stop process, think like Forget about to do Let's stop that, you know, like I could go rent about to do like to do this, but like, stop about another thing, checking another box just like stop. And I think that that's had the biggest impact for me in recent history of just processing, synthesizing, just understanding what is happening and then being thoughtful about whatever step you take. When do you do that? Is that an early morning thing? Is that a midday break? Evening weekends? Maybe it's sporadic. I'm curious. If you have, like, a routine and or habit around that, Yeah, I have. It's constantly evolving as all things like the easiest thing for me. You know, I have two kids like, um was especially when they were younger, was to do it super early in the morning. So I had a whole morning practice where I would get up super early, which was easy, especially when you had young kids you used to waking up early. But I would wake up just an hour before them or half hour before them, and and that's when I would I would read. I would sit. I would, you know, meditate, do yoga. What have you But like, I would definitely not answer emails. I would not check my phone. I would not do any of that stuff. And so, like, so that was one way that I did it and I still do that. But like now, I I you know, more, more kind of hardcore on it. So, like, I try to you know, I look at my calendar every day every week, and I try to cancel as many meetings as possible, right? Like I know that that was probably a luxury that I have, but like so many of the meetings, don't need to happen. And so I've moved. This is part of the reason we created this free product called Drift Video, which I move more towards and we have as a company. And that helped us during this switch the pandemic to an asynchronous way of communicating. And, you know, basically, I'll record videos and you know, things that I'm thinking about and, you know, share those with people, and then we can give them time to process and think about it. And then we can either have a phone call or iterate on that. And so, like, that's super helpful, especially for, you know, there. My my business partner, Lee, is He's like he's the most extroverted. He's the secret guy who wants to be on the sale. He wants to be a salesperson. He's a CTO, but he wants to be. He's the he can sell anything. He's the best recruited on the planet like he is super excited. He likes his form of thinking is talking out loud, right? Like he has to talk...

...through it. And sometimes most of the time, when he's talking through a new idea, he's talking to himself. Really, Even if there's other people in the room, like he's iterating out outside of himself, where I am a processor and so like I have to process that to synthesize, have to sleep on the things I have to think about things. And so, like, you know, when I started to move to this pattern, then I noticed like, Oh, there's this whole group of people within our company that are, you know, somewhere closer to myself, where all of these, like doing everything live, doing everything just at the spur of the moment wasn't giving them time to come up with their best ideas. They were just reacting again. They were just reacting and just moving, and it was knee jerk. And then you get in these cycles where you're not really making any progress. But everyone is just constantly doing because no one's thinking. Mm, man, I love that. And I think that is something that in the spirit of following folks like you know, and I'm not trying to pick on anyone. But you know, the Gary V's of the world where it's, you know, we're, you know, 18 hours a day and always be, you know, emailing and slacking, like the value of having that alone time and building that into habit, I think is very underrated. I think that could be a huge take away for some leaders here on the line that are trying to up level in 2012 and trying to become the next version of themselves, because I think that's a huge take away. I've got just a few a few quick ones for you before I let you go here. So we talked about books. I know that at least in the past, you used to read multiple at a time. So I'm curious if there's any right now that are sticking out to you or or any in the last few months, maybe that have been impactful for you that you'd recommend anyone really on any topic. Sure, I'm still in that pattern, And so, like I read a million books at once, and you know, I have a my own form of reading, which is, you know, like or that I talked about, which is, You know, I'm constantly reading multiple books at once and so I can pick up a book, read part of it, put it down. There's books. If you were to walk them out my house, you would be drowning in books and pick up another one. And I'm just constantly doing that. And one of the that's important because I think, you know, taught me about synthesizing ideas from different from different context, right? And then you started. And when you do that, then you see it's hard to see, like they're only there aren't that many patterns. We are humans. We don't have that many patterns and, like you can see those patterns over and over, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, business, have you. But right now, because of because of the pandemic because of our move to general first, I've really been thinking about culture, structure, systems and things like that. So two books that that I have really been spending a lot of time on our in the tech world. One of them is, um, the book on Netflix. So, you know, uh, Netflix in their culture and then the other book, which just got released recently, which I didn't even hear about, is a book on Amazon, and it's called Working Backwards. And it's the first time that I've seen, like inside, like how they actually operated from a system standpoint from a management standpoint. And, you know, I think I think Jeff Bezos announcing that he's retiring. There's no coincidence that they're They're books that, actually now are telling you how some of this stuff works. For so many years, it was top secret. Mm. What about podcasts? I I will throw a quick plug to seeking wisdom, which I'm a subscriber. I'm a six star reviewer. But any any other podcasts that you listened to? Yes, I listen to a million podcasts, but, you know, and I bounce around on them, you know, I like certain ones, you know, but like, um, I don't know. I've kind of gone on a podcast diet recently, and I still spend time doing, and maybe it's because my computer is gone, but, like, I've kind of pulled back a little bit from them because we've seen this huge influx of of podcast. But I like Shane Parishes podcast, which again is about thinking and mental models and things like that. So I love that. And I love you know, some of the news related ones. Whether it's what Cara Swisher does, you know, I like her podcast, which is a tech oriented podcast. But I don't know, I think you know where I'm...

...actually spending. My podcast time these days is YouTube. And so I say, you know, the next big kind of growth channel for people where people really should be studying right now. You know, I think podcast still have a long, you know are fantastic. Amazing, you know, resource. But like, I would spend a lot of time really understanding how things are happening in video because if we look at what the pandemic has accelerated accelerated many things in our life. But video consumption is one of them, for sure. And again, you don't have to be. Look, don't look at business channels only, but just look at everything. Look at influencers on on there. Look at people you know, whether it's twitch or YouTube, people doing gaming, doing things like that. And you really start to see some patterns of like how you can how you can communicate how you can build audiences, how you can gain attention, like you're really It's really interesting right now. And obviously those translate to a I G and tick tock and all these other channels. But really, I'm spending a lot of time on YouTube these days. Mm. And And anyone on instagram or Twitter that I know you've mentioned before, Like, kind of put taking a diet to only follow people that are, you know, benefitting you in some way whether they're your friends or, you know, virtual mentors. But anyone that sticks out to you, that has been a good resource for you on on any of the social media platforms that people may not have heard of. I don't know if this, you know, if the Syrians has heard of them, but, you know, I think my friend um, longtime friend, uh, Heat and Shaw is someone who really always helps my thinking on instagram and Twitter these days. So that's h i t e n Shaw. You know who I look at? I'm looking a lot at, um, with the chairman. You know, some of the stuff that he tweets, Um, just a bunch of of interesting people. I'm trying to diversify again. I used to like marketing reasons. Tweets, but he doesn't tweet anymore. So, you know, I'm really bouncing around trying to get outside of I'm always trying to get outside of our world outside of tech and sales And what have you because and really study other patterns that are successful. And so because again, I think we're humans. There are only certain patterns Those have not evolved, no matter how much tech we have. Believe me, the patterns have not evolved. Mm. I love that. I love that. So my last question for you and this is, you know, bringing it into a part of the podcast that I call the selfish section. I saw a friend of the podcast, Stephanie Valenti. She came on a few weeks ago. She met you, I think, at the revenue collective, You know, kind of kick off some it. She said that that drift sweatshirt you sent was the most comfortable sweatshirt. Maybe she's ever worn. How many drift videos do I need to send to get one of those? What do I need to do to get on some of the drifts away? I got you. You're you're all set. And, uh, you know, I'm obsessive with it, and some people call me a secret, you know, clothing designer or something. I you know, I'm involved with every single piece of it, everything that we do because back to the beginning of the conversation, I thought, like everything that you know, when we think about brand, we talked about marketing. Like the brand is everything. The brand is every single interaction that your community, your customers, your employees like your investors, whoever has with your company. Not just the stuff that you put out from a marketing standpoint, but it's like, you know, it's the swag that you create, right? Like so, like, what do you send? What are the gifts that you send people? What is, you know, what does it feel like? Back when we had offices to walk into the office? What does it feel like to talk to someone on your team like all those things collectively are the brand. And so, like, sweating every detail is important. And that's how you stand out. And so I've got you on that swag. Anyone else wants some swag? Hit me up on I g and, uh, and I'll pick some people. I love it. I love it. D. C. You've been very generous with your time before you jump. Can you let people know? I I know that there's a rev growth summit coming up for drift, so maybe can talk about that for a second than any other place that folks can connect with you. If it's if it's I g. If it's linked in, if it's just drift dot com, whatever it may be, sure, so I'm d can sell on every platform.

Instagram Twitter, you know, LinkedIn etcetera. So that's D c A N c E l. You can find me on that, Um, we do have an event coming up, which is super exciting. It's called rev Growth R E v E G R o Uh, W th and so just type that in and drift and you'll you'll find it. And so I hope to see you there and as um as we were talking about before, I have a podcast of my own for if you want to geek out about learning models and stuff like that and just geeky stuff, it's, uh called seeking wisdom. Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you coming on, everyone. I definitely highly recommend, you know, following him on all the social platforms. If you don't already check out the podcast, check out the live event, etcetera. Um, D c appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much. And, uh, make sure I got to get your address and size so I can get you hooked up with some limited run stuff. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thanks for listening to that episode of the Revenue Collective podcast. That episode was brought to you by six cents, Howard by AI and Predictive Analytics. Six cents helps unite your entire revenue team with a shared set of data to achieve predictable revenue growth. Please. You can also support the podcast here by heading to Apple or wherever you're listening and subscribe. Apple. You can do a five star review. It helps us to grow the show. And please reach out to me. Connect with me on Linked in my name is Tom Alamo. Work over at gone. Do a lot of help with the revenue collective. And I'd love to hear from you until next week. Yet after it have a great Monday and we'll see you next week. Please say something Mhm.

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