The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

Ep 51: Bring Drift To A Digital-First World w/ David Cancel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Ep 51: Bring Drift To A Digital-First World w/ David Cancel 

All right, everybody happy Monday.Welcome back to the revenue Collective podcast. This is your host, Tom Alaimo.This is where we help revenue leaders the VPs, the C suite, the aspiringleaders to up level their skill set, grow their career, find the bestopportunities and ultimately get one step closer to where they want to getto in their career. So thank you for tuning in. I'm Tom Alamo. Work over atgone. Do some help here for the revenue collective podcast. And, uh, I'mgrateful that you're here with me on this Monday and trying to level upbefore I get to today's content. Let me just give a quick word from our sponsor.So this month, sponsor of the podcast is six cents. Six cents is the numberone account engagement platform, and it helps you to identify accounts that arein market for your solution. Prioritize your efforts, engage buyers the rightway with highly relevant messaging and measure what actually matters with theSixth Sense platform. You're able to get into more deals improve when ratesincrease overall pipeline optimized budget. Spend to learn more, visit sixcents dot com slash revenue Collective. Today's guest. I'm beyond fired up forthis one. You know, let me tell you, I've got d. C. David can't sell thefounder and CEO of Drift. You have almost certainly heard of them. If youhaven't, you've got to go check it out. And D. C. Is one of the mostinspirational people in the tech world in the SAS world and the leadershipworld that I know of Had a few conversations with him over the yearsand, uh, you know, always feel smarter every time I talk with him or hear himspeak or even read his writing. So, you know, we talked about a lot of thingswe talk about, you know, he just brought Drift digital first, right Andwhat that means and why he did that in today's economy. And really, he wentfrom, you know, hard stance on an office. First culture to digital. First,I think is interesting. And I think a lot of founders are going to startfollowing in his footsteps. We talk about, you know, his dichotomy betweenbeing a product lead founder, but also an amazing marketer, an amazing salesperson also being an introvert. So we do talk about that dichotomy we talkabout. You know, some of his life philosophies, the books, the mentalmodels, the virtual models. I mean, the virtual mentors that he has, the way hethinks taking time to think and reflect as a leader. If there's one podcastthat you listen to, it should be this one. If you're trying to be a betterleader, there's not many people that I would refer to before. David can't sellbefore d. C. So this is where I stop talking and we cut to the conversationwith D. C real quick. If you found value in this podcast, just go to Apple.You can leave us A five star review would love to hear from you. You canhit me up on LinkedIn. My name is Tom Alaimo. Without further ado, let's getto David. Can't sell for this week's conversation. All right, D C. Goodmorning. Welcome to the revenue Collective podcast. How you doing? I'msuper excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely.Where are you? Where are you dialing in from on the somewhere on the East Coast,I imagine. Yeah. I'm hunkered down in Boston right now wishing for warmerweather. But I'm I'm a native New Yorker. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I didn't knowif, uh, with the quarantine, if you had decided to get out of the city or gosomewhere warm or somewhere you know more, Uh, you know, spacious oranything like that. But you're you're in the city. Yeah, I'm in the city. Ikind of alternate between here in a place I have up in Vermont, and But Ihave been escaping to the warm weather. Will be going to Miami next week. Nice.Nice. That's, uh that's the new scene. That's like the hot spot that that thattext going to maybe is Miami. From what?...

It seems like the mayor is pulling outall the stops. Yeah, hopefully I don't never come back. I, you know, being inin, uh, Boston founded company. And then, you know, I know you have someoperations out here in San Francisco and, you know, fairly new in in TampaBay. I mean, there's gotta be something about the Tom Brady connection fromBoston to Tampa Bay. I'm not gonna say he went there because Drift openedoffices there a year or two ago, but I don't know if it's a coincidence. I'mjust going to say we opened that office long before Tom Brady decided to quitthe Patriots and head to Tampa Bay. Maybe maybe, maybe once he's wrapped up,he'll have that competitive fire. He'll get into sales and enjoying drift. Thatwould be that would be a hell of a story. That's a total takeover. Um, soI want to get into, you know, a few things with you today and, um, you know,most notably, you know, I saw that you came out, you know, the other week,talking about drip stance on really the future of work, right, and beingvirtual first or digital first, which is totally counter to what I think theoriginal intent was with the company and what you've been doing the last fewyears of really trying to foster a great community in the differentoffices, especially the HQ in Boston. So tell me a little bit about what thatdecision was like and what led to kind of changing your strategy movingforward there. Yeah, that was a That was a tough one. So, you know, when westarted the company. We we made a deliberate decision to be having in theoffice kind of environment and culture. So Aaliyah's Who's my co founder myselfhad worked together several times, started a couple companies together,and one of those companies, the first one that we worked together at was acompany I started in 2000 and seven, where he joined his VP of engineering.That was a remote only company, right? And, uh, and over time, what happenedis that we had people all over the world a big concentration in SanFrancisco, a bigger concentration in Boston and then people and lots ofdifferent global locations. And over time, we ended up opening an office inBoston because we had so many of the product and engineering team here. Andwhat I saw happen was that I saw that you know, this this, you know, unlevelplaying field started to emerge where the remote people, even theconcentration that was in San Francisco, who didn't have an office felt left outof the conversation, felt left out of, you know, uh, their influence in theoffice. And I thought in the end, you know, when I looked back that it led tothis kind of inequitable kind of system or playing field. And so when westarted drift, we wanted to be deliberate. We're either going to beall remote or all in office. We chose in office, and we developed thisamazing in office culture. We had offices in Boston. We still do. Boston,San Francisco, Tampa, Seattle. We were about to open an office in London in,uh, February March of of 2019. Of course I've got derailed and we hadthis kind of I was trying to explain it to someone yesterday. Someone asked meabout it because they had been to the office and they said, How do youreproduce that? Because we had this kind of life, this energy, this forcethat that in the office, the only way I describe it as like I'm a native NewYorker. And like when you go to certain cities like New York, they they seem tohave an energy on their own right, no matter what, they have an energy tohave a beat to it. And we had that in the office, and and so it was a harddecision. But one that I felt that we spent a lot of time trying to decide on.And I wanted the team to be able to move on to the next step. And I hadbeen telling them since the beginning of the pandemic that I thought we weregoing through this. We have gone through this one way door, meaning,like that the world would never be the same because we had gone through thismassive global trauma and I didn't know what was going to be on the other side.But, you know, the more that we got to working throughout this thing, we hired100 and 20 people, you know, all remotely since the beginning ofpandemic. And so it was working. We were productive. And so we made thisdecision to go digital first. Yeah, you kind of brought up that question oflike, how do you re create that energy...

...and that magic I found personally, youknow, I love being in an office I love, especially as a salesperson, the energythat can be on a sales floor. And I feel like that's really hard totranslate over, you know, somewhere like slack particularly, and maybe alittle bit easier over zoom. But how are you translating all of that energyand and passion that, you know, the drift team has virtually Are there anydifferent strategies that you're using or that the teams using? I don't think we've perfected it yet. Ithink we continue to iterate and I think you know us going from a prettyhardcore in office culture to pretty hardcore now digital first one like,you know, we were showing that we're willing to evolve and learn. And so wecontinue to we think of the drift as a learning machine, the company and wethink of all the drifters as individual learning machines, and so things willalways change. But I think we were lucky in that we have developed a coreculture core kind of set of rituals and leadership principles which we definepretty early in the company and these rich we have weekly rituals. We callthem rituals because I consider them different than meetings. They arereally a place that a certain thing happens that people can count on in thecompany and so new people can count on it. Old people can count on it And so,like, you know, I think of them more as rituals. And so we had longstandingrituals and the company that continue and are easy, you know, Not the same,but easy to do. Virtually. And so those continued. I think those are the thingsthat really hold the energy together. I agree, you know, slack. You know, Ibarely log into slack these days. Um, there was a time early in the companywhere I was in slack all the time, but I've moved more to, and I'm trying toget everyone to move more towards a synchronous communication. So we useour own product drift video we use, you know, we felt we do internal podcast.We do all sorts of stuff, but, like, move more towards a synchronous things.Especially now that we have people all over the world. Yeah, and what was theprocess? Because I know you brought on, you know, you said you hired over 100folks. I think one of them was a c r. O. In the last definitely the last year.So what's that hiring strategy like when you haven't met the people inperson, Especially for an executive If there's folks out here that are C suiteor VP level that are hiring, you know, at the executive level, how do youtranslate that? Virtually when you haven't met the people in person. Youcan't see that body language. You can't feel their energy in the room. It'sIt's definitely a different experience. Yeah, the you know, you mentioned the cr O higher. So, Todd, who came on as our zero in April, April, May of 2019.I want to say, you know, the 9 2000. Yeah, 2020. And, uh so he he was reallythe person that really change my mind on whether we could go digital first ornot. And it was because I had this, even though we were new company, youknow, we are digitally native, you know, we are product enables that I still hadthis kind of barrier in my own mind where I thought, you know, like wecould hire lots of people and we were hiring lots of people. But I don't knowif we could hire the most senior roles. You know, the C level roles withoutmeeting these people. And so we went through the hiring process and we hadto search open for a year. We were meeting lots of people. We never metTodd in person. We did everything virtually phone call, zoom, etcetera.And, uh, you know, But in the back of my mind during that hiring, I think Ithought that at some point again, we didn't know what was happening with thepandemic, that we would meet him during the before we made the higher. Ofcourse, we didn't end up meeting him. He has since hired five VPs. This inthe same way that worked for him. And he's totally, like, opened my eyes likethis is possible. We hired the most senior person. They are incrediblyproductive. They have hit the ground running. They have assimilated into theculture. They have elevated the culture in lots of ways, especially on thesales and success side of things. And...

...so, like it is possible. So, like myown ceiling, my own mental ceiling was broken during this thing, and becauseof him and because of what we saw, that that helped make this decision of goingdigital first a lot easier for myself. But you know in terms of how did webring them on board? I think again we were fortunate. We did some unusualthings early in the company when we were 30 to 50 people. We spent a lot oftime codifying our leadership principles are available on our website.If anyone's interested really spent a lot of time doing that really spent alot of time training them myself and Elias, who's my co founder. We createdvideos, curriculum training we really created, invested in this curriculuminternally. And we, you know, we had a pretty detailed on boarding processthat every born in the company went through. We created certifications forconversation, marking conversational sales, etcetera internally first andnow those are publicly available, and we have thousands of people have gonethrough that. So we had this structure which you know, wasn't normal in mypast. Companies that could let someone from the outside assimilate into whatwe were doing a lot simpler than in the past. Yeah, and you've talked a lotabout already just about, you know, opening up your own mind and some ofthe limits that you've had. And I know that you're a big fan of mental modelsand things like that. You know, something that I was curious about isyou have such a your background, I believe, is in product right andcreating products and obviously being an entrepreneur. But when I think ofyou, I I think of just a marketing. You know, I don't know if genius is theright word or or whatever it might be, but just a great marketer and taking alot of great timeless strategies and bringing it to be to be, which isnormally kind of a boring marketing space. I'm curious. If that was, ifthat's a natural instinct in you to really focus on that marketing, or wasit something that you had to be really disciplined on? Because I've heard yousay, You know, you're introverted. Naturally, you know, you do have thatproduct background, which usually those two ideas can can kind of clash of thisproduct should sell itself versus hey, we need to actually go create a marketfor it. I will tell you it's the most unnatural thing possible for me, uh, toand it's funny because I meet a lot of people now in the kind of drift contextand they consider me a marker And they're like, Oh, you're a market. I'mlike, uh, you know, that's so funny because I have had to work so hard atit. It's the most unnatural thing for me. Uh, as you mentioned, I like I'msuper. I'm naturally introverted. You know, I'm most comfortable alonereading a book like, you know, like, I don't like I don't like being in thespotlight. I don't like attention. I don't like public speaking. Basicallyall the things I do now, like I don't naturally like those things. So it'sactually hard work for me. But, you know, when we started, my background isbeing an engineer. So I was an engineer, software engineer And, you know, onthat spectrum of an engineer, like usually as you said, like a lot of themare shy, introverted, you know, like don't you know, kind of a lot ofqualities that I have. I will say that looking back at my career, you know,I'm probably a little bit more extroverted than most of them. Not much,but a little bit, because that was always my secret. Early in my career,where and That's what led me into building products for marketing andsales because I always had an empathy I could always have a conversation with.And I liked having conversations with people on the sales floor, marketers,etcetera, that and you know, they always saw that early in my career whenI was, like, 22 they were like, Oh, you should be the manager of theengineering team And I was like, What? I'm 22 like, I have no experience. Andit was because I was the only one from that team who would actuallycommunicate with the business owners with the business users. And so it's alittle bit more natural for me, but in terms of like learning, marketing andbeing a marketer, unnatural. But when I started drift, I really thought aboutokay, I've been doing fast for a long time now. What's different now? Why now?Why start the company now? What do we have to do differently? And one of thethings that are really focused on was I thought we were in this. I call it thisthird phase of sass, right? I thought,...

...like the first phase. I think allmarkets go through this like the first phase I call like the Edison phase, andthat's like pure discovery, like That's like you can hide behind, you know,patents and trade secrets and things like that. Because the thing thatyou're building the product, the service, whatever is, like, sodifficult to replicate from a technology standpoint that that is, youknow, your mote. And, you know, that was the first phrase assess that was,you know, back in 2000, like it was hard to even figure out how to buildthis stuff you couldn't Google. How do you build these SAS based products? Howdo you process payments, etcetera like that? Then you moved into the secondstage, which was, you know, I call it the fourth stage, and that was like,Okay, now it's mass production, and that's when I did a company likePerform Herbal. That's when I was at HUBSPOT. That's when you saw companieslike Zendesk, etcetera. All these companies emerge where it was. Really,it wasn't technology that was the motive was like business process. Itwas long before many of us knew what LTV CAC was before we knew, like how tobuild And what inside sales versus you know, outside sales versus premium likehow to blend those things were customer success was like we didn't know whatthose things were. Obviously, we all know what that is now. And so becauseof that, I think we're in the third phase of SAS, which is I call theProcter and Gamble phase, which is like, All right, there's thousands ofalternatives that can be reproduced from a technology and a business modelstandpoint easily, anywhere in the world. You're competing on a globallevel. So how do you stand out? How do you and you have to build a brand? Ibelieve, right. You have to build a brand. You have to build a brand thathas affinity with a certain type of customer who's going to choose you oversomeone else. And so I began studying, you know, obsessively this idea ofcreating a brand and marketing and all that stuff, not what led to me becomingknown as a marketer today who are some of your favorite brands. You know, inany context that that you aspire to be or that have inspired you. Well, onethat really you know, influence drift in the early days was Patagonia for awhole bunch of reasons, especially the kind of eat dose behind Patagonia andthe founder and some of the stuff that he wrote, you know, let my people gosurfing one. The book that even Shard wrote Who is the founder of Patagoniahad a big influence on us. Obviously, brands like Nike are amazing in theconstant state of reinvention, right and always feeling like they are new.And then there's a bunch of luxury brands that I'm obsessed with right now.You know, Louis Vuitton is a brand that I look at a lot, especially as theybeen able to take some of the, you know, street wear kind of influence and takethat to a higher level, right? They took someone like Virgil a blow Who'sthe Who had a company called off White, Who's this amazing creative directorhad a streetwear brand called off White, and now he's the creative director forthe men's line there, and you see that influence there. That's what keepstheir edge in that constant state of reinvention. It's never, ever, evertechnology or definitely not a B two B, but definitely not a technology companythat I look at, you know, apples, one obviously. But I don't consider them atechnology company. So kind of on that string, if I were to compare, you knowthat from the Louis Vuitton story, it's like my stretch would be hate.Something that we should do is be bringing in folks with differentbackgrounds, right? Or whether that be, you know who they are as a person,whether it be, you know, gender, ethnic backgrounds, even you know, the typesof companies that they were at their age, all those different things,because that can help to influence and take drift, too. Whatever the 2021version of your company is going to be right, because every year, maybe evenless than that, it probably feels like a different company because of the newproducts and new people that are coming aboard, how the culture is changing. Sois that maybe a correct takeaway from at least from that story, where it'slike, Hey, let's bring in these different influences to help form a newcreative mantra for where the company can go where the products can go andthings like that Yeah, I would say two things. One I think you should always.And this is a habit I've had the entire...

...time I dressed and before you shouldalways think about the company and yourself. Most importantly yourself asneeding to be a different version every single year, like the beginning ofevery year, I think to myself, what is the next? What is this year's versionof me in my role today, right. And every year it's got to change. Its gotto progress. It's got to become something new. And, you know, I'vetried to kind of bring people along in the company and say, like, Look, I'mgoing to be a different version. You're going to be You should be a differentversion But it's still, you know, no matter how much you talk about it, it'sstill unsettling is the wrong word. But it's like confusing right, becausepeople who have been here early in the company so a very different version ofme four years ago, you know where I was, like in everything in the middle ofthings and like now you know, I'm a very different version, and so they maylook at that and say, like, Wow, DCs change Or like, what does he do nowversus an accident? Just like we're at a different stage? We have to be adifferent version. We have to keep upgrading ourselves or else will fallbehind. So, like I think that's super important. You should look at that fromyour own career and as a leader. But you should look at it from a companystandpoint, too. But, you know, on your comment of bringing outside voices, Iwould say, You know, the most important thing is to always start backwards toalways invert, which is how we think about things and like, start from, youknow, who is your audience? Who is your customer like, What do they want? Whatdo they look like? You know, What do they really get in the head? You know,back in the day, we used to think about things like personas, but like, personais a little rigid. But like, just talk to your your community. Your customerslike what do they look like? What are they interested in? Forget about yourproduct or your service, like what are they reading, like, what do they careabout like, just like go figure that out and then start to figure out, like,where the gaps in your company like, Do you have those voices inside or not? Doyou have people that look like them care about the same things? Yes, no.And if not, let's start filling in those gaps so that we can build atighter relationship with that customer base with that community based becausewe're going to look a lot more like them. You just talked about kind oftalking to the customer yourself. I've heard you say something to the extentof whoever gets closest to the customer wins. If there's a V p of sales or VPof marketing or CR Oh, that's listening to this. How much time or what? Whatpercentage? Maybe a range Should they be spending talking to prospects andcustomers hearing from them versus all of the myriad of other things that theyneed to do to run their side of the business? Sure, as a leader, I think Ithink about it on to two wins. I think like as a c R O. As a leader, I thinkyou should be spending a good percent, I would say close to half of your timetalking to your end customer and urine customers, both the literal customerwho you sell to but also the individuals within your team, not justyour manager is not just US VP, not just Europe's people. The individualsales reps. PDR is what have you like figuring that out? Because I feel like,you know, Sam Walton, who is the founder of Walmart, used to call thatover the shoulder management. Unless you like, really hear directly firsthand from those people. You don't really know what's going on, you know,managing through metrics and dashboards and graphs, and that's all nice. Butthat's all. Rear view mirror, right? You can make some inferences andpredictions on that, but like you're looking back, you don't really knowwhat's going on. And so you have to get down there. In the case of Sam Walton,he would literally get go to his WalMart stores. He would be in thestores. People wouldn't know who he was. He would be, you know, in thewarehouses he would always just be trying to figure out what exactly ishappening, because that's where you can get, you can see out ahead. I kind ofthink of that as that's your windshield. That's how you can see forward versusjust looking backwards at what we what we did and how we performed. So I takeclose to 50%. I try to I try to live to. That's not easy, but that's the onlysource of truth. There is no truth inside the building. The truth isalways outside the building. There isn't. There is absolutely no truthinside your building, right? So, like no matter what, no matter how objectiveyou are, no matter how humble you are...

...like we all have biases. We all havedifferent views, will have different agendas. We have different incentiveslike there is no truth inside. It's only outside. So, like, why wouldn'tyou do that? And I, you know, I always would. I find it interesting when Iwould talk to a leader or there was a c. R or not, and I would ask somequestions about the individuals who may be many, many, many levels below themor, you know, on their team or their customer, and then and then how distantor how removed they were and how they would make excuses and say, Well, had abunch of meetings don't have time. This, that whatever it's like, that's theonly truth. Like you don't know anything, Really, unless you are closeto the customer and close to the actual people who interface with yourcustomers. Yeah, and by that I mean, that's Sam Walton's book is so good. Isso much information packed in there? And I think I find his story and hisrelentless nous just to be so inspirational. Just hearing his storieslike he'll take the family on a road trip and he'll stop it. You know, 10different stores across the country and pop into competitor stores. We'll go in,you know, on Saturday had the Saturday morning meetings all that stuff. I Ilove that story personally. Yeah, the that book has had the biggest. You know,I'm a crazy reader, but that because that's the biggest impact on my careerand the way that I think. And so you know, I would say I have had threementors named Sam, and one of them was virtually Sam Walton through that book,and my first mentor, Sam, had recommended that book to me, many Ican't even tell you how many years ago, so many years ago. And what's so funnyis like there's so many patterns in there. We have to learn from history.There's so many patterns in there that you can take to your business. And whenJeff Bezos started Amazon, he based everything and you can read in hisprinciples. You can read in some of the books about the early days of Amazon.He based everything on that book he carried. He was they used to make funof him because he carried a copy of Made in America, which is a book thatwe're talking about in his back pocket for years, and you can see so manythings that they do today at Amazon, this amazing company that traced backto that book and when you read the book, you know that so many of the thingsthat Sam did trace back to other companies JC Penney or other companiesthat he had seen, And so, like all of this is here for us to take. You know,we don't have to learn all these lessons on our own through brute forceand pain. That's how I spent the first majority. Well, the majority of mycareer learning through proof, frost and pain just like everybody else. Andlike now I want to learn through some history. Yeah, Yeah, I think that tieswell. I know you're a voracious reader learning machine, and it ties well, youyou put something on instagram. This is a while ago about your life philosophy,and there was a number of different things, and and one of them said thetime in between doing the things is where the breakthroughs happen. Makespace for the magic to happen. AK stop doing so much. How does that tie into,You know, kind of what we're talking about here, where you are droppingthese names and these stories from people in business and fashion andmaybe in sports and arts and all these different genres where, you know,you're maybe taking a step back from the emails or the slack channels andthinking and reading and contemplating and how that's had effect on you as aleader. Yeah. This is, um I love that we're talking about this like I willsay that it took me that most of my career was running, you know, startingcompanies running, doing acting, you know, like never stopping. And I wasalways, you know, one of the one of the other. A set of people that I reallyadmire is and I've been obsessed with for countless years has been WarrenBuffett and Charlie Munger from Berkshire Hathaway. And they wouldalways talk about like, you know how they sit around and read all the timeand, you know, and selfishly that's what I wanted to do. But that was neverme. And I was like, How did they actually run a business doing thisthing, just sitting around reading and processing ideas, and so, like, youknow, that was always in the back of my mind, but I sort of dismissed it. Ialways thought, like work hard or more hours, you know, I was the person in myearly Cos sleeping in the office like I...

...did all that stuff like and then, youknow, I had a coach. I've had many coaches, but one of the coaches thatI've had in recent histories, name's Brad Stolberg and I suggest peoplefollow him like he comes more from the sports psychology side of things. Butone thing that you learn overtime is that there is no sports psychology orbusiness psychology or whatever. There's just psychology, right? So,like everything that we talked about was applicable, right? And so one ofthe things he had me read a book. And, uh, you know, one of the things that wewould talk a lot about was just like getting comfortable with stopping right.And for many people that are hard charging, you know, high performancethat are listening to this like this is most the most uncomfortable thing, youknow. And the conversation was just like Just stop, Just be Don't doanything. Don't fit all Don't think about don't answer an email. Don't openthe laptop. Don't just stop like learn to get comfortable. Just stopping. Andmaybe you have to put yourself in in different situations to make thathappen, whether it's meditation going for walks, whatever doing you know,they're active ways that you can force this to happen, but like you have to beable to stop and just sit with yourself. And so that was really, really hard forme. But going through that practice and spending more time doing that. Then Istarted to notice like, Oh, wait. Like the real idea is the real breakthroughis the real You know, the real additive things that you can do for your role,your company, whatever are when you're synthesizing when you're processing allof the activity that you've done. And for most of us, were just in a constantstate of activity. We never think we never process. We may think that we'rethinking, but it's more that were react. We're not thinking when are processing,and so, like, that's been the biggest. Like I won't say hack because I hatethat word. But like that's been the biggest like, you know, productivitygain. For me, it's just like stop process, think like Forget about to doLet's stop that, you know, like I could go rent about to do like to do this,but like, stop about another thing, checking another box just like stop.And I think that that's had the biggest impact for me in recent history of justprocessing, synthesizing, just understanding what is happening andthen being thoughtful about whatever step you take. When do you do that? Isthat an early morning thing? Is that a midday break? Evening weekends? Maybeit's sporadic. I'm curious. If you have, like, a routine and or habit aroundthat, Yeah, I have. It's constantly evolving as all things like the easiestthing for me. You know, I have two kids like, um was especially when they wereyounger, was to do it super early in the morning. So I had a whole morningpractice where I would get up super early, which was easy, especially whenyou had young kids you used to waking up early. But I would wake up just anhour before them or half hour before them, and and that's when I would Iwould read. I would sit. I would, you know, meditate, do yoga. What have youBut like, I would definitely not answer emails. I would not check my phone. Iwould not do any of that stuff. And so, like, so that was one way that I did itand I still do that. But like now, I I you know, more, more kind of hardcoreon it. So, like, I try to you know, I look at my calendar every day everyweek, and I try to cancel as many meetings as possible, right? Like Iknow that that was probably a luxury that I have, but like so many of themeetings, don't need to happen. And so I've moved. This is part of the reasonwe created this free product called Drift Video, which I move more towardsand we have as a company. And that helped us during this switch thepandemic to an asynchronous way of communicating. And, you know, basically,I'll record videos and you know, things that I'm thinking about and, you know,share those with people, and then we can give them time to process and thinkabout it. And then we can either have a phone call or iterate on that. And so,like, that's super helpful, especially for, you know, there. My my businesspartner, Lee, is He's like he's the most extroverted. He's the secret guywho wants to be on the sale. He wants to be a salesperson. He's a CTO, but hewants to be. He's the he can sell anything. He's the best recruited onthe planet like he is super excited. He likes his form of thinking is talkingout loud, right? Like he has to talk...

...through it. And sometimes most of thetime, when he's talking through a new idea, he's talking to himself. Really,Even if there's other people in the room, like he's iterating out outsideof himself, where I am a processor and so like I have to process that tosynthesize, have to sleep on the things I have to think about things. And so,like, you know, when I started to move to this pattern, then I noticed like,Oh, there's this whole group of people within our company that are, you know,somewhere closer to myself, where all of these, like doing everything live,doing everything just at the spur of the moment wasn't giving them time tocome up with their best ideas. They were just reacting again. They werejust reacting and just moving, and it was knee jerk. And then you get inthese cycles where you're not really making any progress. But everyone isjust constantly doing because no one's thinking. Mm, man, I love that. And Ithink that is something that in the spirit of following folks like you know,and I'm not trying to pick on anyone. But you know, the Gary V's of the worldwhere it's, you know, we're, you know, 18 hours a day and always be, you know,emailing and slacking, like the value of having that alone time and buildingthat into habit, I think is very underrated. I think that could be ahuge take away for some leaders here on the line that are trying to up level in2012 and trying to become the next version of themselves, because I thinkthat's a huge take away. I've got just a few a few quick ones for you before Ilet you go here. So we talked about books. I know that at least in the past,you used to read multiple at a time. So I'm curious if there's any right nowthat are sticking out to you or or any in the last few months, maybe that havebeen impactful for you that you'd recommend anyone really on any topic.Sure, I'm still in that pattern, And so, like I read a million books at once,and you know, I have a my own form of reading, which is, you know, like orthat I talked about, which is, You know, I'm constantly reading multiple booksat once and so I can pick up a book, read part of it, put it down. There'sbooks. If you were to walk them out my house, you would be drowning in booksand pick up another one. And I'm just constantly doing that. And one of thethat's important because I think, you know, taught me about synthesizingideas from different from different context, right? And then you started.And when you do that, then you see it's hard to see, like they're only therearen't that many patterns. We are humans. We don't have that manypatterns and, like you can see those patterns over and over, whether it'sfiction, nonfiction, business, have you. But right now, because of because ofthe pandemic because of our move to general first, I've really beenthinking about culture, structure, systems and things like that. So twobooks that that I have really been spending a lot of time on our in thetech world. One of them is, um, the book on Netflix. So, you know, uh,Netflix in their culture and then the other book, which just got releasedrecently, which I didn't even hear about, is a book on Amazon, and it'scalled Working Backwards. And it's the first time that I've seen, like inside,like how they actually operated from a system standpoint from a managementstandpoint. And, you know, I think I think Jeff Bezos announcing that he'sretiring. There's no coincidence that they're They're books that, actuallynow are telling you how some of this stuff works. For so many years, it wastop secret. Mm. What about podcasts? I I will throw a quick plug to seekingwisdom, which I'm a subscriber. I'm a six star reviewer. But any any otherpodcasts that you listened to? Yes, I listen to a million podcasts, but, youknow, and I bounce around on them, you know, I like certain ones, you know,but like, um, I don't know. I've kind of gone on a podcast diet recently, andI still spend time doing, and maybe it's because my computer is gone, but,like, I've kind of pulled back a little bit from them because we've seen thishuge influx of of podcast. But I like Shane Parishes podcast, which again isabout thinking and mental models and things like that. So I love that. And Ilove you know, some of the news related ones. Whether it's what Cara Swisherdoes, you know, I like her podcast, which is a tech oriented podcast. But Idon't know, I think you know where I'm...

...actually spending. My podcast timethese days is YouTube. And so I say, you know, the next big kind of growthchannel for people where people really should be studying right now. You know,I think podcast still have a long, you know are fantastic. Amazing, you know,resource. But like, I would spend a lot of time really understanding how thingsare happening in video because if we look at what the pandemic hasaccelerated accelerated many things in our life. But video consumption is oneof them, for sure. And again, you don't have to be. Look, don't look atbusiness channels only, but just look at everything. Look at influencers onon there. Look at people you know, whether it's twitch or YouTube, peopledoing gaming, doing things like that. And you really start to see somepatterns of like how you can how you can communicate how you can buildaudiences, how you can gain attention, like you're really It's reallyinteresting right now. And obviously those translate to a I G and tick tockand all these other channels. But really, I'm spending a lot of time onYouTube these days. Mm. And And anyone on instagram or Twitter that I knowyou've mentioned before, Like, kind of put taking a diet to only follow peoplethat are, you know, benefitting you in some way whether they're your friendsor, you know, virtual mentors. But anyone that sticks out to you, that hasbeen a good resource for you on on any of the social media platforms thatpeople may not have heard of. I don't know if this, you know, if the Syrianshas heard of them, but, you know, I think my friend um, longtime friend, uh,Heat and Shaw is someone who really always helps my thinking on instagramand Twitter these days. So that's h i t e n Shaw. You know who I look at? I'mlooking a lot at, um, with the chairman. You know, some of the stuff that hetweets, Um, just a bunch of of interesting people. I'm trying todiversify again. I used to like marketing reasons. Tweets, but hedoesn't tweet anymore. So, you know, I'm really bouncing around trying toget outside of I'm always trying to get outside of our world outside of techand sales And what have you because and really study other patterns that aresuccessful. And so because again, I think we're humans. There are onlycertain patterns Those have not evolved, no matter how much tech we have.Believe me, the patterns have not evolved. Mm. I love that. I love that.So my last question for you and this is, you know, bringing it into a part ofthe podcast that I call the selfish section. I saw a friend of the podcast,Stephanie Valenti. She came on a few weeks ago. She met you, I think, at therevenue collective, You know, kind of kick off some it. She said that thatdrift sweatshirt you sent was the most comfortable sweatshirt. Maybe she'sever worn. How many drift videos do I need to send to get one of those? Whatdo I need to do to get on some of the drifts away? I got you. You're you'reall set. And, uh, you know, I'm obsessive with it, and some people callme a secret, you know, clothing designer or something. I you know, I'minvolved with every single piece of it, everything that we do because back tothe beginning of the conversation, I thought, like everything that you know,when we think about brand, we talked about marketing. Like the brand iseverything. The brand is every single interaction that your community, yourcustomers, your employees like your investors, whoever has with yourcompany. Not just the stuff that you put out from a marketing standpoint,but it's like, you know, it's the swag that you create, right? Like so, like,what do you send? What are the gifts that you send people? What is, you know,what does it feel like? Back when we had offices to walk into the office?What does it feel like to talk to someone on your team like all thosethings collectively are the brand. And so, like, sweating every detail isimportant. And that's how you stand out. And so I've got you on that swag.Anyone else wants some swag? Hit me up on I g and, uh, and I'll pick somepeople. I love it. I love it. D. C. You've been very generous with yourtime before you jump. Can you let people know? I I know that there's arev growth summit coming up for drift, so maybe can talk about that for asecond than any other place that folks can connect with you. If it's if it's Ig. If it's linked in, if it's just drift dot com, whatever it may be, sure,so I'm d can sell on every platform.

Instagram Twitter, you know, LinkedInetcetera. So that's D c A N c E l. You can find me on that, Um, we do have anevent coming up, which is super exciting. It's called rev Growth R E vE G R o Uh, W th and so just type that in and drift and you'll you'll find it.And so I hope to see you there and as um as we were talking about before, Ihave a podcast of my own for if you want to geek out about learning modelsand stuff like that and just geeky stuff, it's, uh called seeking wisdom.Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you coming on, everyone. I definitelyhighly recommend, you know, following him on all the social platforms. If youdon't already check out the podcast, check out the live event, etcetera. Um,D c appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much. And, uh, make sure I gotto get your address and size so I can get you hooked up with some limited runstuff. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thanks for listening to thatepisode of the Revenue Collective podcast. That episode was brought toyou by six cents, Howard by AI and Predictive Analytics. Six cents helpsunite your entire revenue team with a shared set of data to achievepredictable revenue growth. Please. You can also support the podcast here byheading to Apple or wherever you're listening and subscribe. Apple. You cando a five star review. It helps us to grow the show. And please reach out tome. Connect with me on Linked in my name is Tom Alamo. Work over at gone.Do a lot of help with the revenue collective. And I'd love to hear fromyou until next week. Yet after it have a great Monday and we'll see you nextweek. Please say something Mhm.

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