The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep 30: Authentic Selling - How to Use the Principles of Sales in Everyday Life feat Jeff Kirchick


Authentic Selling - How to Use the Principles of Sales in Everyday Life feat Jeff Kirchick

Check out his book here

Hello and welcome to the revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host. Today. I have the opportunity to sit down with Sales Leader, a revenue collective member and an author, Jeff Kerr Chick. His book, Authentic Selling. How to Use the Principles of Sales in Everyday Life, is out this week. You may also hear from him in a sit down chat with Sam Jacobs, our founder, So I invite you Thio, grab a cup of coffee, settle in tow, listen to Jeff Story of becoming an author and how he believes selling is really something we use in our everyday lives. Before I get started, I want to give a shout out to our sponsor outreach. The Revenue Collective podcast is powered by outreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern sale. Zorg. Don't just take our word for it. The VP of sales, a tableau says they run their entire business from outreach and snowflakes. Enterprise sales director says outreach is the pillar behind how they've been able to scale. Do you want to see what the number one sales engagement platform can do for your business? Simply head over to www dot outreach dot io toe Learn more. You'll get an inside view at how outreach brings efficiency, visibility and versatility to modern sales teams. Again, that's www dot outreach dot io. With that, let's get started. Hello and welcome to the Revenue Collective podcast. This is your host, Casey. Like Gordon, I am sitting down today with Jeff Kerr. Chick Jeff is a member of our revenue collective community, and he is also the author of a new book called Authentic Selling. How to Use Principles of Sales and Everyday Life. When Jeff is not offering books that air I know going to become bestsellers. He is the VP of enterprise sales at next caller. He's been in this world for over a decade, managing teams being an individual contributor, and decided to take his experience as as a subject matter expert and put it into written form. We have Matt Bray on Earlier, as I took over the podcast, I'm writing a book, and I am always, you know, just like I said in that podcast, fascinated with the process of writing and specifically a book, I mean, like its a freaking undertaking. So I am so grateful that you're here today, Jeff and I can't wait to hear about your journey of becoming an author. Yeah, thank you so much. I I hope it's a bestseller. I'm not. I wasn't when I when I wrote it, I wasn't I didn't set the bar that high, but if it could hurt your first Jeff so, yeah, that'd be awesome. So I appreciate the kind words I have no doubt. I know that Sam has been super excited for this to go live to, and I think he's always such a great barometer of of great content. And I know that. So by the time the audience hears, this will be in early December and your book will be out. So before we get started, we'll do a plug at the end, tell me where people can get your book like, let's let's cover the basis here. Yeah, for sure. So the book will be available on amazon dot com in, uh, in every format. So it'll be hard cover paperback kindle and inaudible version as well, so you'll be able to find it on Amazon. And, uh, yeah, it'll be just, uh, reformat that you could possibly want to consume it. Perfect people. Whatever way you want to hear, Jeff, he is here for it. So tell me when you did audible, is it your voice? So as we're recording this, I have not recorded the audible yet. But it will be me that does the recording. I actually spoke with Corey Bray about this topic since he's written so many different books. I think you've mentioned him a moment ago, and he recommended that I do it myself just because a lot of times people don't really understand the right intonation and things to emphasize. So I'm actually in the process of setting that up right now. It'll be interesting. Thio go into a studio and do that. But as of this moment has not been done yet. But by the time people listen to this podcast, it will have been hopefully completed. Oh, my gosh. I feel like we have to have a whole other session because I need to know, like I look at it, it's like 10 hours of read time or whatever the number is in the process. Like how many waters? And like, lemon teas, you're gonna have to have just to keep the vocal chords fresh. Yeah, they when they told me so. I've been working with a company that's been helping me put this book out. And folks in the audience probably know who Scott leases. And Scott has written a book, and Scott had introduced me to some of these folks. And when they told me what's required to do the audible recording, I was a little bit intimidated. They said that I would have to commit, like, 2 to 3 days to do this. And, you know, reading the book start to finish is actually pretty quick. It's a like 180 pages, but it's a pretty quick read. So I was a little bit surprised that it takes it takes that long. But I guess it's probably just because you need Thio, you know, take some breaks and...

...correct mistakes and things like that. So there's a lot of little things that people maybe don't think about when they're writing a book. And this is this is one of them. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm excited. Thio here, that part of the journey. I'm sure you and Sam will talk about it when you're on the crowd cast later, later this year. So tell me a little bit just because I want, you know, I'm always curious when somebody writes a book I wanna hear, Like, what was your credibility like, how did you get here? So tell me a bit about your journey into becoming the VP of enterprise sales. That next caller. And with that where the idea for the book came from? Yeah, sure. Eso I actually majored in English with a focus on creative writing when I was in college at Princeton and I went to college with a lot of kids who, you know, we're really high achieving people that knew that they wanted to work in, like, finance and consulting and wanted to be doctors or lawyers. And I really had no idea what I wanted to do. And I was essentially a creative writing major, Really. I mean, at the end of the day, when you know, when I was kind of talking to my you know, classmates At the time, there was almost a little bit of a joke, like, you know, how are you going to get a job after college? You just You know, you went to a great school and you focused on English and creative writing, and I landed on my feet in sales. I actually worked for a company in Boston, and the reason I liked the idea of working in sales was because I felt like I could use my communication skills from, you know, my writing and all that. But also I was a hard worker and I really believed in myself, and I liked the idea of writing my own paycheck. You know, I had a pretty successful early start to my career and managing teams pretty early on, I control over an entire vertical of a company, my first job, and eventually I got my way to next caller, where again I had an opportunity. Thio basically leave the sales function for a company that was starting from scratch. But along the way, I had always known that deep down, I really love to write and, you know, you ask people sometimes why they do a certain thing and they'll give you an answer at the surface level. But that's not necessarily the rial reason, right, So like to give you an example. If you ask me why I work in sales. I'll tell you, I want to make a lot of money and your impression of me when I say that might be this guy seems a little bit materialistic. But if I then told you that my real interest is writing and that, you know I'd love to, like, make a lot of money so that I could afford Thio, take the risk of writing. You know, that changes things somewhat. And I've always known that I've wanted to write. It's something that I feel really passionate about, the the, you know, being able to touch someone's life in a meaningful way. I think I think that just creates a lot of value to your life, to know that you were able to impact people in a positive way. And I've always known that I wanted to do that. And a Sfar is taking on an actual formal writing project. They felt like the easiest way to do that would be to marry it. Toe my career right like that would be the less risky thing to do is to write something that's topical about what I'm already doing every day at work because it's related to what I'm doing every single day for my for my job. It wouldn't be like just quitting my job and writing a screenplay and hoping that somebody picks it up. That's a really risky endeavor. So I felt that this was, ah, low risk way for me to get something out in the ether with my writing, something, you know. The other thing to Casey is I've been training salespeople in my company, you know, like every six months. And I realized, like I keep repeating myself every six months. You know, I'd love to just put these ideas down in a book. I mean, obviously didn't write the book just so I didn't have to train people anymore, But it was more be a really big Yeah, it was more like, Hey, you know, maybe there's some, like a lot of the people that I have been training like they would give me, like, really good feedback. Even if they went on in their career. I've had reps come back to me and say, Like everything I learned I learned from you and, like I really, really grateful for that, I obviously don't pretend to know more than anybody else. But, you know, I got these great compliments on some of the aspects of our training program and I thought, there's some good nuggets in here. Maybe it could help some other people. I'm gonna write a book about it. So that's kind of how it all the came together. So I want to dig into this a bit. So I I'm a journalism major by by training, so to speak. And I went into sales and communications. Really? Because I love the idea of storytelling, and this ties so much of your book around authenticity. I found that, you know, to be a great seller often meant you were bringing your whole self into it and the ability to see a narrative toe, Understand who your You know, your customer, your protagonist is. And what are they trying to achieve? And how does your solution fit into that, like that became just one of the ways that I personally found selling really exciting is because it was kind of like writing that narrative each time that to your point around communication, like all of that, and I think that for people that either trained in it or have a natural knack for it. It can...

...feel like Oh, yeah, that's a no brainer. That of course, that's what you would dio. But, you know, we had somebody on the show a couple weeks ago and we were talking about the diverse talent that comes together in a team and that how everyone doesn't have the same innate skill sets. So something that feels super easy and organic to you truly might be novel Thio appear. And I think that, you know, there are times that our ideas, you know, like you said you were doing trainings and this training it was something every six months you're doing it. And then when you start to recognize, I have a way of saying things, maybe I'm not recreating the wheel, but I have a way of communicating it that affects people that gets them to retain information. And sometimes it's the how of what you say, just as it is the what? And so I think that anyone listening and this is the the topic I covered with Matt Bray a while ago was that you have a wealth of knowledge that maybe you don't self recognize. But when you actually sit down and begin to put it to paper. There's usually so much more depth, then they may be your first past. So if there's someone that out there that's like, maybe I have something I would encourage you just to start putting the concepts down and seeing what the structure of a narrative or of a story looks like because I think more of us probably have a story in us than we realize. Yeah, and and storytelling is a very powerful way to connect with people because, like you said, we all, we all have a story, and I talk about this in the book. There's a chapter called like Weirder Than Waldo, which is about prospecting and how you really wanna be is weird is you can, like, embrace how weird you are and that in the chapter, I kind of talk about how nobody's really normal. Like even people that you think seem normal. They all have a story. They really they're very everybody is very interesting. If you really were to take the time to sit down and talk to them and kind of kind of coming back to like the how you how you tell the story. I think a lot of it comes down thio vulnerability when you're vulnerable with people and when you show them that you are human and that you have made mistakes, it makes it. It makes you much more credible to them because we're all we're all human beings who make mistakes right. So, like if you were to write a book about your sales philosophy and why it's awesome and how it's worked for you and why you're a big shot VPs sales who always closes deals, you know, people might think that sounds interesting, but they also might not know if they really believe you. You know what I mean? And so in writing this book, I was very intentional and calling out, Ah, lot of mistakes that I've made in the past and even mistakes that people on my team made to try to show like Look, I learned this through screwing up. You know, I made some mistakes, like I'm not just somebody who always gets it right, and I think when you when you tell stories in a way that is vulnerable, people can relate to that, and it makes them it makes you more credible to them. This is a perfect segue into the book itself. And so tell me about what you know. If somebody is wanting to say, Is this book for me? Talk to me about what they can expect in sitting down to read this, whether they're in a sales position and I believe you were telling me Not even in a sales role. There's there's application to this, even if it's not your your day to day focus. Yeah, exactly. So the book is really designed for everybody. I mean, everybody in the revenue collective community is a community of sellers will definitely fit the mall. There's really two audiences sellers, right? So this is about embracing authenticity and you're selling practice, which is something that I argue is really gonna be mandatory moving forward with the wave of machine learning and artificial intelligence. Your authenticity is really all you have to separate you from the machine. So if you don't want your job to get taken over the next you know, several decades, you you know, my argument is that authenticity is a good way to go. But the book is also really designed for anybody like if you don't work in sales and you just want to make your life better by understanding certain principles of selling. This is a book that that you could pick up a swell. So in that regard, it's not very technical. It's actually very anecdotal. There's a lot of stories in there. For example, there's a chapter about cold calling, and I opened up that chapter by telling a story about I used to work on the Boston Red Sox grounds crew. And I was probably like, 18 years old one day and one of the players was jogging around the field, who I idolized while I was picking up like peanut shells or something, right, and I was too nervous to tell him that he did a good job the day before. He had made his major league debut, and I was too scared. Thio say something to him, and I remember like a few days later, one of my co workers was making fun of me and he said something to me. You know, he puts on his pants the same way that you dio and I tell that story at the beginning of the cold calling chapter because it's a good reminder that the people that you are cold calling or just human beings who put on their pants the same way that you dio they have problems like their lives or not.

They might, you know, if they're the CEO of a company or whatever. It doesn't matter. Like they have problems. Their problems might not be the same problems you have. But trust me, everybody has problems. Our lives really don't have meaning without having to solve problems, so there's really no need to be scared to call on these people. But I use that as an anecdote to show like whether you're a sales person or just an everyday person who you know, scared to ask someone on a date or, you know, to join a recreational soccer team or whatever the same principle applies. And I try to kind of tell these stories to help both like actual day to day practitioners of sales and also just anybody who wants toe like use the same concepts to make more banal situations tolerable. I am thinking about whom work scenarios as well as personal scenarios, sometimes as people we could be so focused on the end state, making the deal, hitting our numbers to your point, asking this person out whatever it is that we forget in that moment, that we're just two people trying to get through the day or trying to dio, you know, whatever are our life is, and I think that's a great reminder, especially for those that are early in their career. And I think often times, you know, we look ahead and we see the jobs that we want down the line or people we idolize. And there's almost this, this black box of how they got there. It feels like Wow there. So, you know, we put them on this pedestal, But the truth is, is that they have the just like you're saying they have their own path. And so by reminding yourself that I think it's a practice, I don't think it's something that we you know, I think we all fall victim toe putting someone on a pedestal or feeling like they're out of reach or being really hungry for that end state. But I don't know about you any time. A sales person, whether I've been that salesperson or been a part of it. I can tell when they're hunting the number versus when they're there to really listen and solve a problem. And when they're hunting the number. I immediately shut down. And I've seen that with prospects to when I've been, you know, guilty of that is that it just feels like it's about what I'm looking for, not about what we could potentially create together. Absolutely. And that's kind of like the thrust of the entire book. And my my philosophy is that you should try to treat the customer the same way you would treat, ah, family member or your best friend like when you're when you're talking through an issue with your friend, you don't really have an agenda other than being helpful. And what happens is you naturally ask the questions that you should be asking right like you're not. I mean, you end up getting to a place that's good for both of you, because you care. And it could be hard to like. Force yourself to care like, you know, customers or not are our best friends. We didn't grow up with them, so it's a hard thing for people to to wrap their head around. But I try to encourage people to bring their authenticity and that, actually ah, lot of times requires you to do things that seem counterintuitive. So, for example, there's a chapter called The Customer Is Not always right. And to your point about, like being deferential or like putting people on a pedestal. An inclination when you're selling something to somebody would be to just always say yes to them and be a yes man. And, you know, try to treat them like royalty, even if they're kind of treating you like crap, you know? And my thesis is like, Look, if you're in a relationship and your significant other was treating you like dirt, you wouldn't sit there and take it. You would stand up for yourself. You would earn respect by standing up for yourself no different in a friendship. If your friend wronged you, you would have a conversation with them to fix it. You wouldn't just pretend that nothing happened, So why do you treat a customer any differently? In some ways, you're actually being disrespectful towards the customer by not affording them that level of I think it's actually respectful to stand up sometimes for yourself. So I'm not saying obviously that you should go to customers and constantly belittle them or, you know, you know, constantly say no to them. But if you know if you're in situations where you should be standing up for yourself, treat them like they're your friends. You know, I think you earn more respect. That way the customer starts to see you as somebody who is not just trying to sell them something but somebody who is actually trying to broker a an equitable relationship. So, yeah, I think I agree with you on that. And, ah, lot of times the answers are are not the you know what's what's intuitive to us to dio completely. I think that again, going back, Thio what I mentioned earlier. I think we all battle this at different times and it's a muscle. And I'm curious. You know, you mentioned the Red Sox story, and that's a pretty powerful lesson or, you know, piece of advice to carry from the time you were 18 years old. But can you give some examples? And I'm sure you do in the book of how this authenticity and how you've approached situations. And how you really learned to do that? Sure, Yeah. I mean, I'll, you know, without giving us the whole book. Sure.

Um I mean, I don't want to turn the our podcast into something political, so I'll probably keep it high level, but I think it's no secret. Um, politics have dominated our national conversation for a long time, you know, for the last several months, we had record turnout for the last election. Which signals to me that there is record interest in politics right now, but our dialogue doesn't really seem to be working very well. You know, when you go on Facebook or any really social media, I don't know, maybe maybe it's just me, but I don't really see people getting along. I see people calling each other names. I see people making assumptions about other people. I see people, quite frankly, who arm or interested in being right than they are about really understanding how other people get to their own conclusions. And so there's a chapter in the book about empathy, and that chapter focuses on politics. And, you know, unfortunately, I had to pare this down a lot. I didn't want people to read this, who disagreed with some of my takes to put the book away, So I you know, I pared it down. But But the long story short is that I learned from a leadership coach this phrase nobody tries to suck on purpose. It's a pretty blunt saying, And don't get me wrong. Yeah, it's pretty straightforward, but don't get me wrong. Like if somebody disagrees with me, I don't think that means that they suck. I mean, maybe I suck like maybe I'm the one who's wrong, you know, like I think people need tohave, a non attachment to their own ideas. And by non attachment, I mean, maybe be 99% sure that you're right. Instead of 100% you need to be open to the idea that you are wrong, and it's only by recognizing that you are a flawed person that you can start to empathize with other people. People that don't see themselves as flawed have a hard time being empathetic. They want everyone else to be just like them because they think they're perfect, right, and I actually in that chapter, I given a given example of like a time in my life in college where I was rejected by a lot of people and how I blamed them for it, and then later in life realized that it was my fault and and that's kind of like the example. It's like, Look, maybe these people, you know, could have treated me better. Maybe maybe they learned their lesson, but like pointing fingers at them wasn't going to get me anywhere. I needed to learn that I was flawed. And anyway, to come full circle on this Casey like, you know, a way that people can make this book meaningful for themselves. I think it would actually reduce their stress and anxiety about politics. They will make them feel less like alienated that there's so many people that they disagree with people that are crazy. They might start to look at it differently and say, Hey, maybe these people just have a completely different set of circumstances Growing up, they were exposed to different information, you know, I might not agree with them, but if I were in their shoes, maybe I would have come to the same conclusions. And when you're ableto realize that you can still disagree with people without thinking that they're evil, you know? And I think that that's a really important thing right now, because if we don't accomplish that, I don't want to be very dark on this podcast. But if our dialogue doesn't improve, if there's no discourse, you only get violence right. If you can't work things out verbally, you just get violence to sort it out. We don't want that. We can't have that. So people need to learn how to handle one another in these very difficult conversations. And that's and that's a real world example of like, you know how empathy can be used to not right. People off understand where they're coming from, still respectfully disagree with them, but at least have an understanding that they're not trying to suck on purpose. I'm going to start using that every podcast, I swear. I learn a Fraser to of and you know they're not trying to suck on purpose. I'm going to remind myself that a lot I think that that's we can all, whether it's you know, different political beliefs or run ins at work or clients any of that just being ableto have that framing. I think is really powerful. I am. I also love that we're talking about a sales book, but like there's relevance in politics like that's awesome. So kudos to you for being able to, like be ableto bring really diverse and different ideas and see how the threads tied together. I think that the one thing sales has taught me and I think over time and I think I've seen this to be true with a lot of sales leaders. But as you get better at it, it helps you really understand people because all selling is is usually conversations about problems so that there's mutual benefit like right. It's It's very much things that you might experience Thio exactly your point in the book in everyday life, and once you're able to do that and get good at the dissecting pieces of that, I see it coming out in all sorts of parts of my life. I see it in family dinners. I see it in coordinating trips... go places, conversations with my spouse, like I see it come through and it Z I sometimes have to catch myself to make sure like I'm not in selling mode because That's not really what you want to do, but it's once you develop these skills, it's like, you know, second nature, Justo fall into them when you're not in the work scenario. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think I think what I found is, you know, one of the things that kind of inspired me to write this was this feeling, like these sales training programs are good, right? Like you learn a lot of good like things like, um, in these programs, like it helps you toe have better conversations with people. But there's also a lot of stuff that actually changes. You write. It makes you a different person than who you would normally be right. And you actually gave an example earlier about like the person who's selling at the end of the month to hit their quota like that's a person whose behavior is actually being affected. Um, in the example I give in the book is that it's actually coming from the top down, right? So it's actually the sales leadership that's causing that because, you know, the CEO reports to the board and they have certain goals and they tell the chief revenue officer, and she's running her sales team. So she tells the sales team, You know, these air your quotas because I need to report to the board or like, hear the questions you need to ask customers because I need this data in Salesforce so that we can track certain things. And I'm not arguing that you shouldn't do that, right? Like that stuff is important. I'm not saying don't have a quota. I'm not saying Don't ask, you know, certain questions for your CRM. But what? One of the things I say in the book is that you'll kind of naturally get answers to those questions just by being kind of a good person. You know, like you're in a relationship, you know, I hope this isn't to direct. If you wanna first date with somebody you wouldn't ask them on the first date. Like are you gonna have sex with me on the first date Like that would be a little bit forward, but that's like no different than the band model, like budget, authority, need and timing. Like if you're following the band model and you're asking a customer, you're more or less saying, Are you gonna have sex with me on the first call. And that's not appropriate, right? I mean, So what I'm saying is not appropriate degree, but you shouldn't do that. And but, like, as you build a relationship, you like, if it's if it's gonna go somewhere, you have the right to ask. Are we gonna get married someday? You know, if you date somebody for a couple of years, you know, it's not weird to ask the question. Is this relationship going to go somewhere? And I think that that's the same with customers like you earn the right to ask certain questions based on the way that the relationship is going. If you're good, if you're doing well in the relationship, you will get the answers to the questions that you want because they will not. They will come out naturally, right? So that's kind of the argument I make in the book is like, you know, they're these things that are happening around us, a sales people that kind of change our behavior. It's not good for us. We'll get those same answers just by being ourselves. But we'll also probably earn more trust along the way. So how do you advise? The sales person say they're in a scenario. They're getting the push down from the top behavior they recognize. They say, You know, Wow, I'm reading this book and I or hearing this podcast. I recognize I'm doing the wrong behaviors, but it is because of my environment. How does someone begin to take control of that conversation in an environment where it may be top down? Yeah s Oh, that's a great question. I mean, it's e guess it's gonna vary an organization organization and somewhat depends on how cool your bosses. But I think that there's, Ah, I think there's a couple of things you can dio. I mean, first and foremost, I think that you know what I would do if I were in that situation is I would approach my manager and say, Look, I think that I can get you the information that you're looking for, but I think I can get it in a different way than what you're suggesting the time that you want me to be spending on a discovery call filling out fields of salesforce. I think that times actually better spent for me to build report with the customer and earn their trust. Are you okay with me getting that data at some point in the selling process versus on that first call and just have faith in yourself that you'll get it If it you know, as a relationship moves along, you'll get there, right? The other thing you can do if you're really bold, is just try it, you know? And if it works for you, then you will. You won't really have any explaining to Dio, because you'll you'll be succeeding. And as far you know, from what I can see, managers typically don't really care what you do as long as you're cutting the mustard in terms of hitting your numbers so that those are the approaches I would take is. And when you explain it to your you know, this is something else that I kind of talked about. Two. It's like it's never good to point fingers, right, Like I wouldn't go to your manager and say you've been doing this all wrong. This guy that you know, majored in English, wrote this book about psychology, and I believe everything said, and, um, you know, I want to try out this new thing. I would go and say, Look like I know we're both interested in trying to build report with our customers. I think the better way to build report is for me. Thio...

...spend time listening to them rather than having like a list of questions I need to ask. I will if it's I know it's important to you that I get those questions answered. So are you okay with me just shifting around like when I get to the bottom of that? And I think that that's a much more polite way to have that conversation where both sides the feeling like they're going to get what they want. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And what I found Thio similar, like you were saying, You know, we I think in sales often used the dating analogy. But again, it's the how you ask and it can be. What are the positive indicators that there's either shared values or, you know, shared goals? There are ways to ask that, and that discovery process feels much more organic to your point around building report, and you may not get a 1 to 1 question. What is your budget, but by, you know, leading indicators of maybe company size, the responsibility someone has what the opportunity is. You may be able to deduce that and get you 85% of the answer that you need while still building trust, which we know has much more positive return long term. So I think that and I'm sure the book gets into this just again around the authenticity piece. I think that it's finding your way toe ask these questions that also feels organic. Not like you're putting on the suit of somebody else, but that you're asking it as Jeff. Or is Casey to be ableto really arrive at these answers in a way that feels authentic and true. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, when did you originally? I mean, I know that you you obviously studied English creative writing. You knew at some point you wanted to write something. When did the idea really become riel for you? Of Oh, no. I'm going to write this book. And how long was that process? Until you you got thio Today, when it's it's going live. Yeah. So it was It was pretty quick. It was really probably three or four months ago when I got the idea and started writing. And now we're at the stage where it's going to be published in a matter of weeks. That's pretty fast. I I, uh you know, but the thing is, um you know, look, there's a lot of things I'm not good at, Okay? Like s o. You know, there's a reason that I majored in English and not, you know, math, for example. But one thing that I am good at is writing. Like, if I have an idea for something, it's actually takes longer for me to, like, Think up like what I want to say. But once I know what I want to say, the writing just comes out fast, right? Like I could write pay. I could write, like, 20 pages and like, 20 minutes, right? Like it's really fast for me. Of course I had to go back and edit this and, you know, I had to have some people proof, read it, and then I had to get second eyes on it. There's a lot of stuff that got taken out, you know, I wanted to make sure that nothing was too controversial, at least for this first go around actually kind of cuts in the face of being authentic. And, you know, in some ways, I wanted to say a lot of things, but the same, you know, the same time I wanted to make this accessible. I don't want to offend anybody and have them put them down right away. So, you know, there was a process, you know, of of editing and all that, but it was pretty fast. Um, I'm pretty grateful just to have a team that I worked with that helped me with all the kind of the nitty gritty details that the first time author doesn't understand. Like, how to just get something up on amazon dot com, you know, designing a cover. You know, I had one of my coworkers did the illustrations for me. They're fantastic illustrations, little stick figures in the book. So, you know, there's all these little things that you need to contend with as you do this. I I think you know, I would encourage people, though, to give it a shot. I think it can seem intimidating to write a book, and, you know, I know I'm a quick writer, but it didn't really didn't take me that long to put it together. I think the biggest step, it's kind of like going to the gym and working out like they say half the battles just showing up at the gym because once you're there, you're gonna work out. I think's it's true for most other endeavors, like half the battle is just making the decision to do it. Once you've decided to do it, like most things in your life, probably you'll be able to write just I just got to set your mind to it and I think a lot of people saw themselves short. I know a lot of people who don't look at themselves is great writers, but they have great ideas, and if they could only just get themselves to take the leap towards having the confidence in themselves to put their ideas out there, I'd love to see that I'm not a you know, I've had a pretty good career, but I'm not like a you know, some thought leader that everybody's heard of. I kind of a more of a reserved guy. I didn't I didn't do this to try to earn any sort of fame. I just wanted Thio, you know, put some ideas out there. Andi. I think that's true for a lot of folks. I hope that we'll see more of that. And hopefully my story of being able to, you know, do this fairly quickly might service some inspiration for the, uh, the RC community and some of those you know, the members to do the same completely. There's Ah, there's a great book called So There's...

...the well known book of the Art of War. This is the inverse of that. It's called the War of Art, and it's for creatives. And it's exactly what you said that a lot of times for folks that have ideas that maybe those ideas air swirling in their head. The biggest battle is sitting down and having the discipline to just right. There's ah, friend of mine and has written a couple books. And he said that he had written a piece about it, and he said that what he did was every day he would sit down. He had a timeline for when he wanted to write a book. I don't know, a year, three months, something like that. And he said that every day I sat down for 15 minutes and many times after those 15 minutes, I organically was in the throes of it, and I was just getting it right. I was writing and I would look up and there's pages that poured out of me. But some days I would set my timer for 15 minutes and it would go off and I didn't feel inspired and I said, Okay, I'm done. But the fact that I built a muscle around spending 15 minutes a day let me capture when I was in flow or when I did have those ideas. I've thought about that a lot on, you know, just like the gym. I think that's such a great example. We all know that we're capable of of it. Once we're there, it may feel like a daunting task, but it's getting in the car. It's driving across town. It's, you know, putting on your sneakers, and but once you do it, it feels stupid to have gotten that far and not hop on the treadmill or whatever your you know, whatever your thing is. So I love that analogy and I I agree. And I think that, you know, we have now a few members in the RC community that have written books on this kind of subject matter expertise. So as you're out there listening to this reach out, I I know That's Jeff. You said you were lucky to have a community around you. And I'm sure just given of what I've heard of your, you know, desire to really give back is that you also would love to help someone chase their idea. Absolutely. Yeah. And like, there were people within the community and other folks just within the sales community at large that I I reached out Thio Thio and not only endorsed the book, I got endorsements from, um, Kyle Porter of Sales Loft Henry Shock of Zoom Info Mark Roberts, who is the former c r O of Hub Spot. But I also got help from people like, you know, Scott lease helped me out, Like putting me in touch with some people. I got feedback from my mentor, so you can't, you know, look, Onley Ah, riel narcissist, I think feels like they can get everything done by themselves. You know, we all need help. I definitely needed help to get this done. I'm really grateful that I had a community of people to help me out. You know, one thing that I did as going through the process a little tip for people is like when you have a good idea. Just write it down. Even if you're you know, you're not gonna do it right away. Every time you have good idea, write it down, store it somewhere. Eventually you'll come back to it. You might want to write about it and put it all together in your book, but yeah, absolutely. Casey, if they're folks that are part of the community thinking, Hey, I might want to give this a shot or even just want to figure out, like how hard this is. I'm happy to talk to them and anything that I could do to help. I'd be I'd be happy to. Amazing. So tell me and you're in looking back over the past. Call it. You know, four months since this really came to life for you, what was the hardest part of getting here? And then we'll get into what was the the easiest or most fun the hardest part of getting here, I think, was grappling with how to make this appeal to as many people as possible. It's a very niche subject matter, and I wanted to make it matter to everybody. So that's a challenge because, you know, there's even a chapter about how to write a good, cold email. You know, that's really very specific to actual sales people. How do I make that important to you if you're not working in sales right like that's That's not an easy thing to Dio and like the way that I try to bridge that together, of course, is to kind of show that we are all reaching out to people cold all the time for various things. Doesn't you know you'd be formally salesperson like the same principles apply If you want to get someone's attention, The argument I make is being weird is good, like it's good to stand out right? So that's kind of the That was probably the hardest part, and even part of that I've alluded to this. But any time where you're dealing with politics or as part of the book, the books not really political, by the way I removed like a lot of this stuff, but it started out being heavier on politics. And again, it's a balancing act because even though I'm kind of politically moderate, that doesn't mean that I couldn't piss someone off with something that I say politically, right? There's things that I had to be careful of, like, Well, I don't wanna lose interest because somebody didn't like my take on something, you know, at the same time, I want to balance that with my authenticity, which is like, Well, I'm not gonna just be silent either, right? Like I'm going to stand up for, like, the value of empathy. And I'm going to stand up for having faith in people. Even if you don't like that. You know, even if you disagree and you want to write other people off like...

...that's not something I believe in and I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna stand up for that. So that was the hardest part I think was How do I How do I do that Balancing act to make the subject matter appeal to as many people as possible for a subject that's otherwise fairly niche. Like most sales books, you read are very technical and very in the weeds on sales that that's not what this is. The best way I know to dig in on that. What when was the decision? Because I think that's really interesting. I know that. You know, a sales people were often till don't make your message for everyone. Make it for a really specific target audience, right? Narrow that in. Know your customer. And I'm curious. You know what that balance was like or what that battle was in and how you decided. No, I yes, these air principles that can be relevant for the selling community. But I want to speak to a broader audience. Was there a specific catalyst there? Um, yeah, I think it's just I'll be completely honest. I think it's just being a little bit dismayed at seeing how much division there was in our country. It really saddened me to see people really going at each other and not really seeking to understand one another, and I get where it comes from. Like I said, no one's trying to suck on purpose were all well intended. Even when we get angry at other people and I think that Our anger for others kind of comes from the conviction we have in our beliefs and and so on. It's I think, it's well intentioned, but I got frustrated by that. It made me sad. Honestly, I think that we have a lot more in common with one another. Then we would think if we could just get far enough along to understand that you can't get that far if you just don't engage, right, So, like, I kind of thought like, Look, I want to try to solve this problem but I'm not a politician. I'm not a political journalist. I'm just some guy you know works in sales. I wanna write something that's topical to my career. That's the lowest risk way for me to get my stuff out there. But how could I bridge the gap? To make it so that people can take lessons from this that apply to their everyday lives? A lot of that, yes was like What can we can we make things better for our dialogue? But a lot of it too, is just I think a lot of people that I meet in my life don't realize that their sales people and that they're constantly being sold. Teoh. You know, I never looked at my college application process as a sales process. I didn't view, you know, Princeton is like selling. May I Never. I never felt I actually felt the opposite, like I was selling them on, letting me go to their school. And both are true, but people don't. A lot of times we we disassociate like an overtly sales setting from, like, just regular like they're all the same, like when when your parents are telling you to eat your vegetables when you're five years old because it will make you strong, like they're selling you on that idea, that's like, That's Ah, that's a sales job that's going on. So I think I think it's kind of a long winded answer, but I think it was kind of a combination of those things. No, I I am so glad I asked that question because I think it it's something that a lot of us, we think, observe things around us, and it feels like it's not our domain to participate. Like you said, I'm not a politician on. I know there are so many people in my life. I'll give an example of. I have a dear friend. She's a coach. She formerly was a head of people at Google and then worked for cabbage here in Atlanta. So she's had, like, a really great career. And as their became more conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion, she said, Yeah, like I do have a role to talk about that because I've spent in HR people. But I wanna like, systematically help people. I want to, like, better approach that conversation and instead of going at it like carte blanche, I wanna thio help minority talent or diverse talent or any of that, she said. What is the thing that I'm expert at? I'm expert at helping people get the jobs they want, So I'm going to go and work with talent that needs my services. I can choose to discount it. I can choose to offer it in different kinds of ways, but I'm gonna lean into what I know best in order to help solve this problem. And I think that's what I heard you saying is like I'm watching this on a macro scale. I'm feeling sad. I have something inside me I want to sell or tell. And what is the thing that I am credible to talk about so that someone will listen and maybe give me the permission that I can have a broader conversation? And I think that that's something that hits home. I know it does with me, and I'm sure with so many of our listeners, yeah, I think you know, a lot of times we we sell ourselves short on throwing our hat in the ring on these things. I mean, not to keep this on the politics side, but like whether you, whether you whether you are a fan of hers or not, you know Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was was a bartender, and now she's one of the most recognizable politicians in the... And she's like 31 years old, like you could take the leap Thio. If you're passionate about something and you have ideas to me, it doesn't really matter what your background is. In fact, I open up the book telling a story. The first paragraph of the book is a story about a job interview I went into about a decade ago, and the CEO of this company basically tried to embarrass me in the final round interview, and at the end he told me I didn't fit the mold of what he was looking for because I was too cerebral. I was too interested in too many different things. He wanted a guy who was gonna work from 9 to 5, pounding the phones and slugging beers with his friends after work. Those were his exact words. I remember them because of how offended I waas, that he had an idea of exactly what you needed to be to be successful in sales. And to him, you needed to be like a jock. You know, you need to be like a simpleton who just wanted Thio make a lot of cold calls and then get hammered after work with your friends. And, you know, if you were interested in creative writing or reading books or whatever like may like, you know, you were, you said I was quote unquote to all over the place to be successful in sales. And, you know, I I that was kind of a motivating thing for me. I wanted to prove him wrong. I kind of had a chip on my shoulder to say Look, you can't You can't tell somebody that, you know, um, they can't Can't achieve something because they don't fit your world view of what that thing is. That's just your opinion, right? So I think it's good to encourage people to take a leap. You might not be a professional writer. You might not be a professional politician. You might not be a professional salesperson. It doesn't mean that you can't go out and succeed in helping people in those arenas. Okay, so tell me that you are sending this person a copy of your book because that would just be the funniest full circle like I need you to send it with, Like, a case of beer. Like this is what I'm imagining. This is maybe, like, the Pettiness in me, but I'm so here for it. You know what? I hadn't thought about that. But, you know, if you were, I'll be honest. If you were to talk to my coworkers, they tell you that no one holds a grudge more than I do. So I might have to do that. That I don't know if this is a stereotype, but like you're in New England and that just is like a very new England thing to me. Like you're wrong. Me and I am here for it. So please, like, take a picture when you do it. Posted to the RC Slack channel, we want to see the full circle. Yeah, absolutely. I I think that I actually might have to do that would be kind of interesting to see if he's changed his mind after, uh, you know, 10 years or whatever it's been. Oh, my God, that's great. Alright, So we talked about the hardest part of, you know, how do you make it wide enough for more people toe more eyeballs to get on the book but without, you know, compromising your authenticity? Because that's the essence of the book. Tell me, what was the best part? What is something? And maybe surprising that you went through this process and you're like, That was fucking awesome. What? What was that? Yeah, I think, honestly, the best part is just kind of like telling the, like, kind of the anecdotes, you know, like, we all have these experiences in our lives that have moved us in some way. And some some of those air painful moments, and some of them are very happy moments. But reliving them is really fun being able to, like, share your experiences with other people and learn what you have in common with them or like how you differ. I think it's just pretty exciting and you know it comes. Not when you're telling a story of something that happened to you, you know, any time. Really, it kind of comes naturally. You know, that was the easiest part. Was getting that all out? And honestly, it helped me thio relive some moments of my past that I would have for gotten about. Maybe if I hadn't been intentional in trying to think about them again. And there's a moment towards the end of the book where I my grandfather, passed away like, five years ago, and I kind of talk about unless I kind of closed. I won't give it away, but I closed the book with a lesson that he taught me. And I remember, you know, thinking about that again. I I would have I might not have remembered that moment if I had not been purposeful and thinking about it for the book and you know. I was very grateful for that. And I think that, you know, it's really fun to kind of go back and dig those up. I imagine it was very therapeutic in some ways. Thio go through that and tell your stories again. Yeah, I mean, a lot of stuff people will see. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in there that that I was embarrassed about, you know, And like, it's not easy toe. It's not easy to just open kimono. Tell people all these things I talk about. You know, I was on. I was on the wrestling team at Princeton and I quit the team. And, you know, I talk about how that made me never want to quit anything ever again. But like that, it was like the worst decision I ever made and how it it ruined my social life in college and all these things. I mean, that was not that to this day. It's still something that I that upsets may. I wasn't excited. Thio, you know, go back and and and dig that up. But it is therapeutic to get it off your chest.

And I think I actually adapted that from a block I wrote. It was funny because when I wrote the blogger, I was overwhelmed by it with support from a lot of kids I knew in college who told me that they had felt the same way all along, and I never would have realized it unless I had written something about it. Sometimes we feel like we're alone and certain pain or suffering that we think we're going through because we keep it to ourselves. But when you go out and tell people, Hey, you know what? I had this horrible thing that happened. It's it's really it's messed up parts of my life and I'm gonna tell you about it. You'd be surprised. People that line up and say, Hey, same here and it becomes it actually becomes a ah force for good. You start to realize that you're not alone in these things. And you know, that was something that I was very surprised by when I was writing this, that, you know, turning some of these darker moments of my past actually turn them into positives for May, that is, that is a pretty incredible piece to think about telling those bad things gives it purpose so that it lives. It changes the every frames it, right it to your point. It becomes a learning moment. It becomes, ah, story. So if somebody else doesn't make the same mistake, or if they have, they feel like they're not alone. And I think I just have a lot of, Ah, a lot of admiration that you have taken your world of sales and use this to tell tell really life stories. And I think that the sales people reading it probably will become better at their job if they can do that. I realized that humanizing themselves. You know, people like people, they don't like robots they don't like, you know, something that is that is so rigid just to get to the end state. They want toe work and no people that they enjoy being with. And I think the only way to do that is toe to be your real Selves, but could be daunting. Sometimes you feel like you have to armor up, but the truth is, is that when you show up in your most authentic self, hence the name of the book, the results are usually a lot more organic and a lot better and a lot more enjoyable to like. It's not grin and bear it till you get there. It's it's that you actually get to enjoy the ride to. Absolutely. And there's a chapter in the in the book. It's called Failure is Okay, and being a victim is not, And the purpose of the chapter is that we need to be accountable to our own mistakes. And it's not people that mess up that we don't like. People mess up all the time. Um, in fact, we actually root for people that are like the underdog, right? If people make a mistake and then they get back on their feet. We actually admire those people more than people who were just successful all along. It's the people that, like are stubborn or double down on their mistakes that we don't really like, whether it's in politics, whether it's in just like your workplace. If somebody screws up and they won't admit it and move on, those are the people that really pissed us off. They're not accountable to their own failure, and so I try to be a living example of that in the book and be like, Look, I've made mistakes like I've screwed up. I'm not perfect, but here I just said it. Right. So, like, here's how we move on. And I think that it Z, you know, hopefully gives people the confidence that by opening up a little bit that they might actually be better off. Where is their intuition would make them believe that they're better off by being flawless. So, yeah, I have enjoyed this conversation so much, I hope that everyone listening I know myself. I'm gonna be checking out the book when it's live later this month. I hope that our our community as it was well, just so our listeners remember one more time. The book is authentic, selling how to use the principles of sales and everyday life. Author is my guest, Jeff Kerr chick, and he shares his stories. Um advice. Antic dotes. Thio. Yes. Be better at your job but selling. But also take the things that we all know and maybe feel organic to us every day in our sales roles, marketing roles and figure out how to apply those thio life and for any of you that are already doing this you know the magic of it. So, Jeff, thank you for being a guest. It's been really fun to sit down today. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation. Absolutely. I look forward, Thio, hearing your chat with Sam once the book comes out as well. This is the revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Like Gordon, I'm your host. I will be seeing you next time. And until then, go check out Amazon. Go get Jeff's book it za available. Alright, crew by All right. That's a wrap with another great revenue Collective podcast episode Jeff Kartik, Thank you for being a guest. The revenue collective podcast is powered by outreach. The sales engagement platform for the modern sale. Zorg Want to see what the number one sales engagement platform can do for your business? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io to learn more. I'm Casey. Let Gordon your host and we'll see you next time.

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