The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

Ep 30: Authentic Selling - How to Use the Principles of Sales in Everyday Life feat Jeff Kirchick

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Authentic Selling - How to Use the Principles of Sales in Everyday Life feat Jeff Kirchick

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Hello and welcome to the revenuecollective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host. Today. Ihave the opportunity to sit down with Sales Leader, a revenue collectivemember and an author, Jeff Kerr Chick. His book, Authentic Selling. How to Usethe Principles of Sales in Everyday Life, is out this week. You may alsohear from him in a sit down chat with Sam Jacobs, our founder, So I inviteyou Thio, grab a cup of coffee, settle in tow, listen to Jeff Story ofbecoming an author and how he believes selling is really something we use inour everyday lives. Before I get started, I want to give a shout out toour sponsor outreach. The Revenue Collective podcast is powered byoutreach, the sales engagement platform for the modern sale. Zorg. Don't justtake our word for it. The VP of sales, a tableau says they run their entirebusiness from outreach and snowflakes. Enterprise sales director says outreachis the pillar behind how they've been able to scale. Do you want to see whatthe number one sales engagement platform can do for your business?Simply head over to www dot outreach dot io toe Learn more. You'll get aninside view at how outreach brings efficiency, visibility and versatilityto modern sales teams. Again, that's www dot outreach dot io. With that,let's get started. Hello and welcome to the Revenue Collective podcast. This isyour host, Casey. Like Gordon, I am sitting down today with Jeff Kerr.Chick Jeff is a member of our revenue collective community, and he is alsothe author of a new book called Authentic Selling. How to UsePrinciples of Sales and Everyday Life. When Jeff is not offering books thatair I know going to become bestsellers. He is the VP of enterprise sales atnext caller. He's been in this world for over a decade, managing teams beingan individual contributor, and decided to take his experience as as a subjectmatter expert and put it into written form. We have Matt Bray on Earlier, asI took over the podcast, I'm writing a book, and I am always, you know, justlike I said in that podcast, fascinated with the process of writing andspecifically a book, I mean, like its a freaking undertaking. So I am sograteful that you're here today, Jeff and I can't wait to hear about yourjourney of becoming an author. Yeah, thank you so much. I I hope it's abestseller. I'm not. I wasn't when I when I wrote it, I wasn't I didn't setthe bar that high, but if it could hurt your first Jeff so, yeah, that'd beawesome. So I appreciate the kind words I have no doubt. I know that Sam hasbeen super excited for this to go live to, and I think he's always such agreat barometer of of great content. And I know that. So by the time theaudience hears, this will be in early December and your book will be out. Sobefore we get started, we'll do a plug at the end, tell me where people canget your book like, let's let's cover the basis here. Yeah, for sure. So thebook will be available on amazon dot com in, uh, in every format. So it'llbe hard cover paperback kindle and inaudible version as well, so you'll beable to find it on Amazon. And, uh, yeah, it'll be just, uh, reformat thatyou could possibly want to consume it. Perfect people. Whatever way you wantto hear, Jeff, he is here for it. So tell me when you did audible, is ityour voice? So as we're recording this, I have not recorded the audible yet.But it will be me that does the recording. I actually spoke with CoreyBray about this topic since he's written so many different books. Ithink you've mentioned him a moment ago, and he recommended that I do it myselfjust because a lot of times people don't really understand the rightintonation and things to emphasize. So I'm actually in the process of settingthat up right now. It'll be interesting. Thio go into a studio and do that. Butas of this moment has not been done yet. But by the time people listen to thispodcast, it will have been hopefully completed. Oh, my gosh. I feel like wehave to have a whole other session because I need to know, like I look atit, it's like 10 hours of read time or whatever the number is in the process.Like how many waters? And like, lemon teas, you're gonna have to have just tokeep the vocal chords fresh. Yeah, they when they told me so. I've been workingwith a company that's been helping me put this book out. And folks in theaudience probably know who Scott leases. And Scott has written a book, and Scotthad introduced me to some of these folks. And when they told me what'srequired to do the audible recording, I was a little bit intimidated. They saidthat I would have to commit, like, 2 to 3 days to do this. And, you know,reading the book start to finish is actually pretty quick. It's a like 180pages, but it's a pretty quick read. So I was a little bit surprised that ittakes it takes that long. But I guess it's probably just because you needThio, you know, take some breaks and...

...correct mistakes and things like that.So there's a lot of little things that people maybe don't think about whenthey're writing a book. And this is this is one of them. Oh, my gosh. Well,I'm excited. Thio here, that part of the journey. I'm sure you and Sam willtalk about it when you're on the crowd cast later, later this year. So tell mea little bit just because I want, you know, I'm always curious when somebodywrites a book I wanna hear, Like, what was your credibility like, how did youget here? So tell me a bit about your journey into becoming the VP ofenterprise sales. That next caller. And with that where the idea for the bookcame from? Yeah, sure. Eso I actually majored in English with a focus oncreative writing when I was in college at Princeton and I went to college witha lot of kids who, you know, we're really high achieving people that knewthat they wanted to work in, like, finance and consulting and wanted to bedoctors or lawyers. And I really had no idea what I wanted to do. And I wasessentially a creative writing major, Really. I mean, at the end of the day,when you know, when I was kind of talking to my you know, classmates Atthe time, there was almost a little bit of a joke, like, you know, how are yougoing to get a job after college? You just You know, you went to a greatschool and you focused on English and creative writing, and I landed on myfeet in sales. I actually worked for a company in Boston, and the reason Iliked the idea of working in sales was because I felt like I could use mycommunication skills from, you know, my writing and all that. But also I was ahard worker and I really believed in myself, and I liked the idea of writingmy own paycheck. You know, I had a pretty successful early start to mycareer and managing teams pretty early on, I control over an entire verticalof a company, my first job, and eventually I got my way to next caller,where again I had an opportunity. Thio basically leave the sales function fora company that was starting from scratch. But along the way, I hadalways known that deep down, I really love to write and, you know, you askpeople sometimes why they do a certain thing and they'll give you an answer atthe surface level. But that's not necessarily the rial reason, right, Solike to give you an example. If you ask me why I work in sales. I'll tell you,I want to make a lot of money and your impression of me when I say that mightbe this guy seems a little bit materialistic. But if I then told youthat my real interest is writing and that, you know I'd love to, like, makea lot of money so that I could afford Thio, take the risk of writing. Youknow, that changes things somewhat. And I've always known that I've wanted towrite. It's something that I feel really passionate about, the the, youknow, being able to touch someone's life in a meaningful way. I think Ithink that just creates a lot of value to your life, to know that you wereable to impact people in a positive way. And I've always known that I wanted todo that. And a Sfar is taking on an actual formal writing project. They felt like the easiest way to dothat would be to marry it. Toe my career right like that would be theless risky thing to do is to write something that's topical about what I'malready doing every day at work because it's related to what I'm doing everysingle day for my for my job. It wouldn't be like just quitting my joband writing a screenplay and hoping that somebody picks it up. That's areally risky endeavor. So I felt that this was, ah, low risk way for me toget something out in the ether with my writing, something, you know. The otherthing to Casey is I've been training salespeople in my company, you know,like every six months. And I realized, like I keep repeating myself every sixmonths. You know, I'd love to just put these ideas down in a book. I mean,obviously didn't write the book just so I didn't have to train people anymore,But it was more be a really big Yeah, it was more like, Hey, you know, maybethere's some, like a lot of the people that I have been training like theywould give me, like, really good feedback. Even if they went on in theircareer. I've had reps come back to me and say, Like everything I learned Ilearned from you and, like I really, really grateful for that, I obviouslydon't pretend to know more than anybody else. But, you know, I got these greatcompliments on some of the aspects of our training program and I thought,there's some good nuggets in here. Maybe it could help some other people.I'm gonna write a book about it. So that's kind of how it all the cametogether. So I want to dig into this a bit. So II'm a journalism major by by training, so to speak. And I went into sales andcommunications. Really? Because I love the idea of storytelling, and this tiesso much of your book around authenticity. I found that, you know,to be a great seller often meant you were bringing your whole self into itand the ability to see a narrative toe, Understand who your You know, yourcustomer, your protagonist is. And what are they trying to achieve? And howdoes your solution fit into that, like that became just one of the ways that Ipersonally found selling really exciting is because it was kind of likewriting that narrative each time that to your point around communication,like all of that, and I think that for people that either trained in it orhave a natural knack for it. It can...

...feel like Oh, yeah, that's a no brainer.That of course, that's what you would dio. But, you know, we had somebody onthe show a couple weeks ago and we were talking about the diverse talent thatcomes together in a team and that how everyone doesn't have the same innateskill sets. So something that feels super easy and organic to you trulymight be novel Thio appear. And I think that, you know, there are times thatour ideas, you know, like you said you were doing trainings and this trainingit was something every six months you're doing it. And then when youstart to recognize, I have a way of saying things, maybe I'm not recreatingthe wheel, but I have a way of communicating it that affects peoplethat gets them to retain information. And sometimes it's the how of what yousay, just as it is the what? And so I think that anyone listening and this isthe the topic I covered with Matt Bray a while ago was that you have a wealthof knowledge that maybe you don't self recognize. But when you actually sitdown and begin to put it to paper. There's usually so much more depth,then they may be your first past. So if there's someone that out there that'slike, maybe I have something I would encourage you just to start putting theconcepts down and seeing what the structure of a narrative or of a storylooks like because I think more of us probably have a story in us than werealize. Yeah, and and storytelling is a very powerful way to connect withpeople because, like you said, we all, we all have a story, and I talk aboutthis in the book. There's a chapter called like Weirder Than Waldo, whichis about prospecting and how you really wanna be is weird is you can, like,embrace how weird you are and that in the chapter, I kind of talk about hownobody's really normal. Like even people that you think seem normal. Theyall have a story. They really they're very everybody is very interesting. Ifyou really were to take the time to sit down and talk to them and kind of kindof coming back to like the how you how you tell the story. I think a lot of itcomes down thio vulnerability when you're vulnerable with people and whenyou show them that you are human and that you have made mistakes, it makesit. It makes you much more credible to them because we're all we're all humanbeings who make mistakes right. So, like if you were to write a book aboutyour sales philosophy and why it's awesome and how it's worked for you andwhy you're a big shot VPs sales who always closes deals, you know, peoplemight think that sounds interesting, but they also might not know if theyreally believe you. You know what I mean? And so in writing this book, Iwas very intentional and calling out, Ah, lot of mistakes that I've made inthe past and even mistakes that people on my team made to try to show likeLook, I learned this through screwing up. You know, I made some mistakes,like I'm not just somebody who always gets it right, and I think when youwhen you tell stories in a way that is vulnerable, people can relate to that,and it makes them it makes you more credible to them. This is a perfect segue into the bookitself. And so tell me about what you know. If somebody is wanting to say, Isthis book for me? Talk to me about what they can expect in sitting down to readthis, whether they're in a sales position and I believe you were tellingme Not even in a sales role. There's there's application to this, even ifit's not your your day to day focus. Yeah, exactly. So the book is reallydesigned for everybody. I mean, everybody in the revenue collectivecommunity is a community of sellers will definitely fit the mall. There'sreally two audiences sellers, right? So this is about embracing authenticityand you're selling practice, which is something that I argue is really gonnabe mandatory moving forward with the wave of machine learning and artificialintelligence. Your authenticity is really all you have to separate youfrom the machine. So if you don't want your job to get taken over the next youknow, several decades, you you know, my argument is that authenticity is a goodway to go. But the book is also really designed for anybody like if you don'twork in sales and you just want to make your life better by understandingcertain principles of selling. This is a book that that you could pick up aswell. So in that regard, it's not very technical. It's actually very anecdotal.There's a lot of stories in there. For example, there's a chapter about coldcalling, and I opened up that chapter by telling a story about I used to workon the Boston Red Sox grounds crew. And I was probably like, 18 years old oneday and one of the players was jogging around the field, who I idolized whileI was picking up like peanut shells or something, right, and I was too nervousto tell him that he did a good job the day before. He had made his majorleague debut, and I was too scared. Thio say something to him, and Iremember like a few days later, one of my co workers was making fun of me andhe said something to me. You know, he puts on his pants the same way that youdio and I tell that story at the beginning of the cold calling chapterbecause it's a good reminder that the people that you are cold calling orjust human beings who put on their pants the same way that you dio theyhave problems like their lives or not.

They might, you know, if they're theCEO of a company or whatever. It doesn't matter. Like they have problems.Their problems might not be the same problems you have. But trust me,everybody has problems. Our lives really don't have meaning withouthaving to solve problems, so there's really no need to be scared to call onthese people. But I use that as an anecdote to show like whether you're asales person or just an everyday person who you know, scared to ask someone ona date or, you know, to join a recreational soccer team or whateverthe same principle applies. And I try to kind of tell these stories to helpboth like actual day to day practitioners of sales and also justanybody who wants toe like use the same concepts to make more banal situationstolerable. I am thinking about whom work scenariosas well as personal scenarios, sometimes as people we could be sofocused on the end state, making the deal, hitting our numbers to your point,asking this person out whatever it is that we forget in that moment, thatwe're just two people trying to get through the day or trying to dio, youknow, whatever are our life is, and I think that's a great reminder,especially for those that are early in their career. And I think often times,you know, we look ahead and we see the jobs that we want down the line orpeople we idolize. And there's almost this, this black box of how they gotthere. It feels like Wow there. So, you know, we put them on this pedestal, Butthe truth is, is that they have the just like you're saying they have theirown path. And so by reminding yourself that I think it's a practice, I don'tthink it's something that we you know, I think we all fall victim toe puttingsomeone on a pedestal or feeling like they're out of reach or being reallyhungry for that end state. But I don't know about you any time. A sales person,whether I've been that salesperson or been a part of it. I can tell whenthey're hunting the number versus when they're there to really listen andsolve a problem. And when they're hunting the number. I immediately shutdown. And I've seen that with prospects to when I've been, you know, guilty ofthat is that it just feels like it's about what I'm looking for, not aboutwhat we could potentially create together. Absolutely. And that's kindof like the thrust of the entire book. And my my philosophy is that you shouldtry to treat the customer the same way you would treat, ah, family member oryour best friend like when you're when you're talking through an issue withyour friend, you don't really have an agenda other than being helpful. Andwhat happens is you naturally ask the questions that you should be askingright like you're not. I mean, you end up getting to a place that's good forboth of you, because you care. And it could be hard to like. Force yourselfto care like, you know, customers or not are our best friends. We didn'tgrow up with them, so it's a hard thing for people to to wrap their head around.But I try to encourage people to bring their authenticity and that, actuallyah, lot of times requires you to do things that seem counterintuitive. So,for example, there's a chapter called The Customer Is Not always right. Andto your point about, like being deferential or like putting people on apedestal. An inclination when you're selling something to somebody would beto just always say yes to them and be a yes man. And, you know, try to treatthem like royalty, even if they're kind of treating you like crap, you know?And my thesis is like, Look, if you're in a relationship and your significantother was treating you like dirt, you wouldn't sit there and take it. Youwould stand up for yourself. You would earn respect by standing up foryourself no different in a friendship. If your friend wronged you, you wouldhave a conversation with them to fix it. You wouldn't just pretend that nothinghappened, So why do you treat a customer any differently? In some ways,you're actually being disrespectful towards the customer by not affordingthem that level of I think it's actually respectful to stand upsometimes for yourself. So I'm not saying obviously that you should go tocustomers and constantly belittle them or, you know, you know, constantly sayno to them. But if you know if you're in situations where you should bestanding up for yourself, treat them like they're your friends. You know, Ithink you earn more respect. That way the customer starts to see you assomebody who is not just trying to sell them something but somebody who isactually trying to broker a an equitable relationship. So, yeah, Ithink I agree with you on that. And, ah, lot of times the answers are are notthe you know what's what's intuitive to us to dio completely. I think that again, goingback, Thio what I mentioned earlier. I think we all battle this at differenttimes and it's a muscle. And I'm curious. You know, you mentioned theRed Sox story, and that's a pretty powerful lesson or, you know, piece ofadvice to carry from the time you were 18 years old. But can you give someexamples? And I'm sure you do in the book of how this authenticity and howyou've approached situations. And how you really learned to do that? Sure, Yeah. I mean, I'll, you know,without giving us the whole book. Sure.

Um I mean, I don't want to turn the ourpodcast into something political, so I'll probably keep it high level, but Ithink it's no secret. Um, politics have dominated our national conversation fora long time, you know, for the last several months, we had record turnoutfor the last election. Which signals to me that there is record interest inpolitics right now, but our dialogue doesn't really seem to be working verywell. You know, when you go on Facebook or any really social media, I don'tknow, maybe maybe it's just me, but I don't really see people getting along.I see people calling each other names. I see people making assumptions aboutother people. I see people, quite frankly, who arm or interested in beingright than they are about really understanding how other people get totheir own conclusions. And so there's a chapter in the book about empathy, andthat chapter focuses on politics. And, you know, unfortunately, I had to parethis down a lot. I didn't want people to read this, who disagreed with someof my takes to put the book away, So I you know, I pared it down. But But thelong story short is that I learned from a leadership coach this phrase nobodytries to suck on purpose. It's a pretty blunt saying, And don't get me wrong.Yeah, it's pretty straightforward, but don't get me wrong. Like if somebodydisagrees with me, I don't think that means that they suck. I mean, maybe Isuck like maybe I'm the one who's wrong, you know, like I think people needtohave, a non attachment to their own ideas. And by non attachment, I mean, maybe be 99% sure that you're right.Instead of 100% you need to be open to the idea that you are wrong, and it'sonly by recognizing that you are a flawed person that you can start toempathize with other people. People that don't see themselves as flawedhave a hard time being empathetic. They want everyone else to be just like thembecause they think they're perfect, right, and I actually in that chapter,I given a given example of like a time in my life in college where I wasrejected by a lot of people and how I blamed them for it, and then later inlife realized that it was my fault and and that's kind of like the example.It's like, Look, maybe these people, you know, could have treated me better.Maybe maybe they learned their lesson, but like pointing fingers at themwasn't going to get me anywhere. I needed to learn that I was flawed. Andanyway, to come full circle on this Casey like, you know, a way that peoplecan make this book meaningful for themselves. I think it would actuallyreduce their stress and anxiety about politics. They will make them feel lesslike alienated that there's so many people that they disagree with peoplethat are crazy. They might start to look at it differently and say, Hey,maybe these people just have a completely different set ofcircumstances Growing up, they were exposed to different information, youknow, I might not agree with them, but if I were in their shoes, maybe I wouldhave come to the same conclusions. And when you're ableto realize that you canstill disagree with people without thinking that they're evil, you know?And I think that that's a really important thing right now, because ifwe don't accomplish that, I don't want to be very dark on this podcast. But ifour dialogue doesn't improve, if there's no discourse, you only getviolence right. If you can't work things out verbally, you just getviolence to sort it out. We don't want that. We can't have that. So peopleneed to learn how to handle one another in these very difficult conversations.And that's and that's a real world example of like, you know how empathycan be used to not right. People off understand where they're coming from,still respectfully disagree with them, but at least have an understanding thatthey're not trying to suck on purpose. I'm going to start using that everypodcast, I swear. I learn a Fraser to of and you know they're not trying tosuck on purpose. I'm going to remind myself that a lot I think that that'swe can all, whether it's you know, different political beliefs or run insat work or clients any of that just being ableto have that framing. I thinkis really powerful. I am. I also love that we're talking about a sales book,but like there's relevance in politics like that's awesome. So kudos to youfor being able to, like be ableto bring really diverse and different ideas andsee how the threads tied together. I think that the one thing sales hastaught me and I think over time and I think I've seen this to be true with alot of sales leaders. But as you get better at it, it helps you reallyunderstand people because all selling is is usually conversations aboutproblems so that there's mutual benefit like right. It's It's very much thingsthat you might experience Thio exactly your point in the book in everyday life,and once you're able to do that and get good at the dissecting pieces of that,I see it coming out in all sorts of parts of my life. I see it in familydinners. I see it in coordinating trips...

...to go places, conversations with myspouse, like I see it come through and it Z I sometimes have to catch myselfto make sure like I'm not in selling mode because That's not really what youwant to do, but it's once you develop these skills, it's like, you know,second nature, Justo fall into them when you're not in the work scenario.Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think I think what I found is, you know,one of the things that kind of inspired me to write this was this feeling, likethese sales training programs are good, right? Like you learn a lot of goodlike things like, um, in these programs, like it helps you toe have betterconversations with people. But there's also a lot of stuff that actuallychanges. You write. It makes you a different person than who you wouldnormally be right. And you actually gave an example earlier about like theperson who's selling at the end of the month to hit their quota like that's aperson whose behavior is actually being affected. Um, in the example I give inthe book is that it's actually coming from the top down, right? So it'sactually the sales leadership that's causing that because, you know, the CEOreports to the board and they have certain goals and they tell the chiefrevenue officer, and she's running her sales team. So she tells the sales team,You know, these air your quotas because I need to report to the board or like,hear the questions you need to ask customers because I need this data inSalesforce so that we can track certain things. And I'm not arguing that youshouldn't do that, right? Like that stuff is important. I'm not sayingdon't have a quota. I'm not saying Don't ask, you know, certain questionsfor your CRM. But what? One of the things I say in the book is that you'llkind of naturally get answers to those questions just by being kind of a goodperson. You know, like you're in a relationship, you know, I hope thisisn't to direct. If you wanna first date with somebody you wouldn't askthem on the first date. Like are you gonna have sex with me on the firstdate Like that would be a little bit forward, but that's like no differentthan the band model, like budget, authority, need and timing. Like ifyou're following the band model and you're asking a customer, you're moreor less saying, Are you gonna have sex with me on the first call. And that'snot appropriate, right? I mean, So what I'm saying is not appropriate degree,but you shouldn't do that. And but, like, as you build a relationship, youlike, if it's if it's gonna go somewhere, you have the right to ask.Are we gonna get married someday? You know, if you date somebody for a coupleof years, you know, it's not weird to ask the question. Is this relationshipgoing to go somewhere? And I think that that's the same with customers like youearn the right to ask certain questions based on the way that the relationshipis going. If you're good, if you're doing well in the relationship, youwill get the answers to the questions that you want because they will not.They will come out naturally, right? So that's kind of the argument I make inthe book is like, you know, they're these things that are happening aroundus, a sales people that kind of change our behavior. It's not good for us.We'll get those same answers just by being ourselves. But we'll alsoprobably earn more trust along the way. So how do you advise? The sales personsay they're in a scenario. They're getting the push down from the topbehavior they recognize. They say, You know, Wow, I'm reading this book and Ior hearing this podcast. I recognize I'm doing the wrong behaviors, but itis because of my environment. How does someone begin to take control of thatconversation in an environment where it may be top down? Yeah s Oh, that's a great question. Imean, it's e guess it's gonna vary an organization organization and somewhatdepends on how cool your bosses. But I think that there's, Ah, I think there'sa couple of things you can dio. I mean, first and foremost, I think that youknow what I would do if I were in that situation is I would approach mymanager and say, Look, I think that I can get you the information that you'relooking for, but I think I can get it in a different way than what you'resuggesting the time that you want me to be spending on a discovery call fillingout fields of salesforce. I think that times actually better spent for me tobuild report with the customer and earn their trust. Are you okay with megetting that data at some point in the selling process versus on that firstcall and just have faith in yourself that you'll get it If it you know, as arelationship moves along, you'll get there, right? The other thing you cando if you're really bold, is just try it, you know? And if it works for you,then you will. You won't really have any explaining to Dio, because you'llyou'll be succeeding. And as far you know, from what I can see, managerstypically don't really care what you do as long as you're cutting the mustardin terms of hitting your numbers so that those are the approaches I wouldtake is. And when you explain it to your you know, this is something elsethat I kind of talked about. Two. It's like it's never good to point fingers,right, Like I wouldn't go to your manager and say you've been doing thisall wrong. This guy that you know, majored in English, wrote this bookabout psychology, and I believe everything said, and, um, you know, Iwant to try out this new thing. I would go and say, Look like I know we're bothinterested in trying to build report with our customers. I think the betterway to build report is for me. Thio...

...spend time listening to them ratherthan having like a list of questions I need to ask. I will if it's I know it'simportant to you that I get those questions answered. So are you okaywith me just shifting around like when I get to the bottom of that? And Ithink that that's a much more polite way to have that conversation whereboth sides the feeling like they're going to get what they want. Yeah, Ithink that's a great point. And what I found Thio similar, like you weresaying, You know, we I think in sales often used the dating analogy. Butagain, it's the how you ask and it can be. What are the positive indicatorsthat there's either shared values or, you know, shared goals? There are waysto ask that, and that discovery process feels much more organic to your pointaround building report, and you may not get a 1 to 1 question. What is yourbudget, but by, you know, leading indicators of maybe company size, theresponsibility someone has what the opportunity is. You may be able todeduce that and get you 85% of the answer that you need while stillbuilding trust, which we know has much more positive return long term. So Ithink that and I'm sure the book gets into this just again around theauthenticity piece. I think that it's finding your way toe ask thesequestions that also feels organic. Not like you're putting on the suit ofsomebody else, but that you're asking it as Jeff. Or is Casey to be abletoreally arrive at these answers in a way that feels authentic and true. Yeah,absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, when did you originally? I mean, I knowthat you you obviously studied English creative writing. You knew at somepoint you wanted to write something. When did the idea really become rielfor you? Of Oh, no. I'm going to write this book. And how long was thatprocess? Until you you got thio Today, when it's it's going live. Yeah. So itwas It was pretty quick. It was really probably three or four months ago whenI got the idea and started writing. And now we're at the stage where it's goingto be published in a matter of weeks. That's pretty fast. I I, uh you know,but the thing is, um you know, look, there's a lot of things I'm not good at,Okay? Like s o. You know, there's a reason that I majored in English andnot, you know, math, for example. But one thing that I am good at is writing.Like, if I have an idea for something, it's actually takes longer for me to,like, Think up like what I want to say. Butonce I know what I want to say, the writing just comes out fast, right?Like I could write pay. I could write, like, 20 pages and like, 20 minutes,right? Like it's really fast for me. Of course I had to go back and edit thisand, you know, I had to have some people proof, read it, and then I hadto get second eyes on it. There's a lot of stuff that got taken out, you know,I wanted to make sure that nothing was too controversial, at least for thisfirst go around actually kind of cuts in the face of being authentic. And,you know, in some ways, I wanted to say a lot of things, but the same, you know,the same time I wanted to make this accessible. I don't want to offendanybody and have them put them down right away. So, you know, there was aprocess, you know, of of editing and all that, but it was pretty fast. Um,I'm pretty grateful just to have a team that I worked with that helped me withall the kind of the nitty gritty details that the first time authordoesn't understand. Like, how to just get something up on amazon dot com, youknow, designing a cover. You know, I had one of my coworkers did theillustrations for me. They're fantastic illustrations, little stick figures inthe book. So, you know, there's all these little things that you need tocontend with as you do this. I I think you know, I would encourage people,though, to give it a shot. I think it can seem intimidating to write a book,and, you know, I know I'm a quick writer, but it didn't really didn'ttake me that long to put it together. I think the biggest step, it's kind oflike going to the gym and working out like they say half the battles justshowing up at the gym because once you're there, you're gonna work out. Ithink's it's true for most other endeavors, like half the battle is justmaking the decision to do it. Once you've decided to do it, like mostthings in your life, probably you'll be able to write just I just got to setyour mind to it and I think a lot of people saw themselves short. I know alot of people who don't look at themselves is great writers, but theyhave great ideas, and if they could only just get themselves to take theleap towards having the confidence in themselves to put their ideas out there,I'd love to see that I'm not a you know, I've had a pretty good career, but I'mnot like a you know, some thought leader that everybody's heard of. Ikind of a more of a reserved guy. I didn't I didn't do this to try to earnany sort of fame. I just wanted Thio, you know, put some ideas out there.Andi. I think that's true for a lot of folks. I hope that we'll see more ofthat. And hopefully my story of being able to, you know, do this fairlyquickly might service some inspiration for the, uh, the RC community and someof those you know, the members to do the same completely. There's Ah,there's a great book called So There's...

...the well known book of the Art of War.This is the inverse of that. It's called the War of Art, and it's forcreatives. And it's exactly what you said that a lot of times for folks thathave ideas that maybe those ideas air swirling in their head. The biggestbattle is sitting down and having the discipline to just right. There's ah,friend of mine and has written a couple books. And he said that he had writtena piece about it, and he said that what he did was every day he would sit down.He had a timeline for when he wanted to write a book. I don't know, a year,three months, something like that. And he said that every day I sat down for15 minutes and many times after those 15 minutes, I organically was in thethroes of it, and I was just getting it right. I was writing and I would lookup and there's pages that poured out of me. But some days I would set my timerfor 15 minutes and it would go off and I didn't feel inspired and I said, Okay,I'm done. But the fact that I built a muscle around spending 15 minutes a daylet me capture when I was in flow or when I did have those ideas. I'vethought about that a lot on, you know, just like the gym. I think that's sucha great example. We all know that we're capable of of it. Once we're there, itmay feel like a daunting task, but it's getting in the car. It's driving acrosstown. It's, you know, putting on your sneakers, and but once you do it, itfeels stupid to have gotten that far and not hop on the treadmill orwhatever your you know, whatever your thing is. So I love that analogy and II agree. And I think that, you know, we have now a few members in the RCcommunity that have written books on this kind of subject matter expertise.So as you're out there listening to this reach out, I I know That's Jeff.You said you were lucky to have a community around you. And I'm sure justgiven of what I've heard of your, you know, desire to really give back isthat you also would love to help someone chase their idea. Absolutely.Yeah. And like, there were people within the community and other folksjust within the sales community at large that I I reached out Thio Thioand not only endorsed the book, I got endorsements from, um, Kyle Porter ofSales Loft Henry Shock of Zoom Info Mark Roberts, who is the former c r Oof Hub Spot. But I also got help from people like, you know, Scott leasehelped me out, Like putting me in touch with some people. I got feedback frommy mentor, so you can't, you know, look, Onley Ah, riel narcissist, I thinkfeels like they can get everything done by themselves. You know, we all needhelp. I definitely needed help to get this done. I'm really grateful that Ihad a community of people to help me out. You know, one thing that I did asgoing through the process a little tip for people is like when you have a goodidea. Just write it down. Even if you're you know, you're not gonna do itright away. Every time you have good idea, write it down, store it somewhere.Eventually you'll come back to it. You might want to write about it and put itall together in your book, but yeah, absolutely. Casey, if they're folksthat are part of the community thinking, Hey, I might want to give this a shotor even just want to figure out, like how hard this is. I'm happy to talk tothem and anything that I could do to help. I'd be I'd be happy to. Amazing. So tell me and you're inlooking back over the past. Call it. You know, four months since this reallycame to life for you, what was the hardest part of getting here? And thenwe'll get into what was the the easiest or most fun the hardest part of gettinghere, I think, was grappling with how to make this appeal to as many peopleas possible. It's a very niche subject matter, and I wanted to make it matterto everybody. So that's a challenge because, you know, there's even achapter about how to write a good, cold email. You know, that's really veryspecific to actual sales people. How do I make that important to you if you'renot working in sales right like that's That's not an easy thing to Dio andlike the way that I try to bridge that together, of course, is to kind of showthat we are all reaching out to people cold all the time for various things.Doesn't you know you'd be formally salesperson like the same principlesapply If you want to get someone's attention, The argument I make is beingweird is good, like it's good to stand out right? So that's kind of the Thatwas probably the hardest part, and even part of that I've alluded to this. Butany time where you're dealing with politics or as part of the book, thebooks not really political, by the way I removed like a lot of this stuff, butit started out being heavier on politics. And again, it's a balancingact because even though I'm kind of politically moderate, that doesn't meanthat I couldn't piss someone off with something that I say politically, right?There's things that I had to be careful of, like, Well, I don't wanna loseinterest because somebody didn't like my take on something, you know, at thesame time, I want to balance that with my authenticity, which is like, Well,I'm not gonna just be silent either, right? Like I'm going to stand up for,like, the value of empathy. And I'm going to stand up for having faith inpeople. Even if you don't like that. You know, even if you disagree and youwant to write other people off like...

...that's not something I believe in andI'm gonna you know, I'm gonna stand up for that. So that was the hardest partI think was How do I How do I do that Balancing act to make the subjectmatter appeal to as many people as possible for a subject that's otherwisefairly niche. Like most sales books, you read are very technical and very inthe weeds on sales that that's not what this is. The best way I know to dig inon that. What when was the decision? Because I think that's reallyinteresting. I know that. You know, a sales people were often till don't makeyour message for everyone. Make it for a really specific target audience,right? Narrow that in. Know your customer. And I'm curious. You knowwhat that balance was like or what that battle was in and how you decided. No,I yes, these air principles that can be relevant for the selling community. ButI want to speak to a broader audience. Was there a specific catalyst there? Um, yeah, I think it's just I'll becompletely honest. I think it's just being a little bit dismayed at seeinghow much division there was in our country. It really saddened me to seepeople really going at each other and not really seeking to understand oneanother, and I get where it comes from. Like I said, no one's trying to suck onpurpose were all well intended. Even when we get angry at other people and Ithink that Our anger for others kind of comes from the conviction we have inour beliefs and and so on. It's I think, it's well intentioned, but I gotfrustrated by that. It made me sad. Honestly, I think that we have a lotmore in common with one another. Then we would think if we could just get farenough along to understand that you can't get that far if you just don'tengage, right, So, like, I kind of thought like, Look, I want to try tosolve this problem but I'm not a politician. I'm not a politicaljournalist. I'm just some guy you know works in sales. I wanna write somethingthat's topical to my career. That's the lowest risk way for me to get my stuffout there. But how could I bridge the gap? To make it so that people can takelessons from this that apply to their everyday lives? A lot of that, yes waslike What can we can we make things better for our dialogue? But a lot ofit too, is just I think a lot of people that I meet in my life don't realizethat their sales people and that they're constantly being sold. Teoh.You know, I never looked at my college application process as a sales process.I didn't view, you know, Princeton is like selling. May I Never. I never feltI actually felt the opposite, like I was selling them on, letting me go totheir school. And both are true, but people don't. A lot of times we wedisassociate like an overtly sales setting from, like, just regular likethey're all the same, like when when your parents are telling you to eatyour vegetables when you're five years old because it will make you strong,like they're selling you on that idea, that's like, That's Ah, that's a salesjob that's going on. So I think I think it's kind of a long winded answer, butI think it was kind of a combination of those things. No, I I am so glad Iasked that question because I think it it's something that a lot of us, wethink, observe things around us, and it feels like it's not our domain toparticipate. Like you said, I'm not a politician on. I know there are so manypeople in my life. I'll give an example of. I have a dear friend. She's a coach.She formerly was a head of people at Google and then worked for cabbage herein Atlanta. So she's had, like, a really great career. And as theirbecame more conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion, shesaid, Yeah, like I do have a role to talk about that because I've spent inHR people. But I wanna like, systematically help people. I want to,like, better approach that conversation and instead of going at it like carteblanche, I wanna thio help minority talent or diverse talent or any of that,she said. What is the thing that I'm expert at? I'm expert at helping peopleget the jobs they want, So I'm going to go and work with talent that needs myservices. I can choose to discount it. I can choose to offer it in differentkinds of ways, but I'm gonna lean into what I know best in order to help solvethis problem. And I think that's what I heard you saying is like I'm watchingthis on a macro scale. I'm feeling sad. I have something inside me I want tosell or tell. And what is the thing that I am credible to talk about sothat someone will listen and maybe give me the permission that I can have abroader conversation? And I think that that's something that hits home. I knowit does with me, and I'm sure with so many of our listeners, yeah, I thinkyou know, a lot of times we we sell ourselves short on throwing our hat inthe ring on these things. I mean, not to keep this on the politics side, butlike whether you, whether you whether you are a fan of hers or not, you knowAlexandria Ocasio Cortez was was a bartender, and now she's one of themost recognizable politicians in the...

...country. And she's like 31 years old,like you could take the leap Thio. If you're passionate about something andyou have ideas to me, it doesn't really matter what your background is. In fact,I open up the book telling a story. The first paragraph of the book is a storyabout a job interview I went into about a decade ago, and the CEO of thiscompany basically tried to embarrass me in the final round interview, and atthe end he told me I didn't fit the mold of what he was looking for becauseI was too cerebral. I was too interested in too many different things.He wanted a guy who was gonna work from 9 to 5, pounding the phones andslugging beers with his friends after work. Those were his exact words. Iremember them because of how offended I waas, that he had an idea of exactlywhat you needed to be to be successful in sales. And to him, you needed to belike a jock. You know, you need to be like a simpleton who just wanted Thiomake a lot of cold calls and then get hammered after work with your friends.And, you know, if you were interested in creative writing or reading books orwhatever like may like, you know, you were, you said I was quote unquote toall over the place to be successful in sales. And, you know, I I that was kindof a motivating thing for me. I wanted to prove him wrong. I kind of had achip on my shoulder to say Look, you can't You can't tell somebody that, youknow, um, they can't Can't achieve something because they don't fit yourworld view of what that thing is. That's just your opinion, right? So Ithink it's good to encourage people to take a leap. You might not be aprofessional writer. You might not be a professional politician. You might notbe a professional salesperson. It doesn't mean that you can't go out andsucceed in helping people in those arenas. Okay, so tell me that you aresending this person a copy of your book because that would just be the funniestfull circle like I need you to send it with, Like, a case of beer. Like thisis what I'm imagining. This is maybe, like, the Pettiness in me, but I'm sohere for it. You know what? I hadn't thought about that. But, you know, ifyou were, I'll be honest. If you were to talk to my coworkers, they tell youthat no one holds a grudge more than I do. So I might have to do that. That Idon't know if this is a stereotype, but like you're in New England and thatjust is like a very new England thing to me. Like you're wrong. Me and I amhere for it. So please, like, take a picture when you do it. Posted to theRC Slack channel, we want to see the full circle. Yeah, absolutely. I Ithink that I actually might have to do that would be kind of interesting tosee if he's changed his mind after, uh, you know, 10 years or whatever it'sbeen. Oh, my God, that's great. Alright, So we talked about the hardest part of,you know, how do you make it wide enough for more people toe moreeyeballs to get on the book but without, you know, compromising yourauthenticity? Because that's the essence of the book. Tell me, what wasthe best part? What is something? And maybe surprising that you went throughthis process and you're like, That was fucking awesome. What? What was that?Yeah, I think, honestly, the best part is just kind of like telling the, like,kind of the anecdotes, you know, like, we all have these experiences in ourlives that have moved us in some way. And some some of those air painfulmoments, and some of them are very happy moments. But reliving them isreally fun being able to, like, share your experiences with other people andlearn what you have in common with them or like how you differ. I think it'sjust pretty exciting and you know it comes. Not when you're telling a storyof something that happened to you, you know, any time. Really, it kind ofcomes naturally. You know, that was the easiest part. Was getting that all out?And honestly, it helped me thio relive some moments of my past that I wouldhave for gotten about. Maybe if I hadn't been intentional in trying tothink about them again. And there's a moment towards the end of the bookwhere I my grandfather, passed away like, five years ago, and I kind oftalk about unless I kind of closed. I won't give it away, but I closed thebook with a lesson that he taught me. And I remember, you know, thinkingabout that again. I I would have I might not have remembered that momentif I had not been purposeful and thinking about it for the book and youknow. I was very grateful for that. And I think that, you know, it's really funto kind of go back and dig those up. I imagine it was very therapeutic in someways. Thio go through that and tell your stories again. Yeah, I mean, a lotof stuff people will see. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in there thatthat I was embarrassed about, you know, And like, it's not easy toe. It's noteasy to just open kimono. Tell people all these things I talk about. You know,I was on. I was on the wrestling team at Princeton and I quit the team. And,you know, I talk about how that made me never want to quit anything ever again.But like that, it was like the worst decision I ever made and how it itruined my social life in college and all these things. I mean, that was notthat to this day. It's still something that I that upsets may. I wasn'texcited. Thio, you know, go back and and and dig that up. But it istherapeutic to get it off your chest.

And I think I actually adapted thatfrom a block I wrote. It was funny because when I wrote the blogger, I wasoverwhelmed by it with support from a lot of kids I knew in college who toldme that they had felt the same way all along, and I never would have realizedit unless I had written something about it. Sometimes we feel like we're aloneand certain pain or suffering that we think we're going through because wekeep it to ourselves. But when you go out and tell people, Hey, you know what?I had this horrible thing that happened. It's it's really it's messed up partsof my life and I'm gonna tell you about it. You'd be surprised. People thatline up and say, Hey, same here and it becomes it actually becomes a ah forcefor good. You start to realize that you're not alone in these things. Andyou know, that was something that I was very surprised by when I was writingthis, that, you know, turning some of these darker moments of my pastactually turn them into positives for May, that is, that is a pretty incrediblepiece to think about telling those bad things gives it purpose so that itlives. It changes the every frames it, right it to your point. It becomes alearning moment. It becomes, ah, story. So if somebody else doesn't make thesame mistake, or if they have, they feel like they're not alone. And Ithink I just have a lot of, Ah, a lot of admiration that you have taken yourworld of sales and use this to tell tell really life stories. And I thinkthat the sales people reading it probably will become better at theirjob if they can do that. I realized that humanizing themselves. You know,people like people, they don't like robots they don't like, you know,something that is that is so rigid just to get to the end state. They want toework and no people that they enjoy being with. And I think the only way todo that is toe to be your real Selves, but could be daunting. Sometimes youfeel like you have to armor up, but the truth is, is that when you show up inyour most authentic self, hence the name of the book, the results areusually a lot more organic and a lot better and a lot more enjoyable to like.It's not grin and bear it till you get there. It's it's that you actually getto enjoy the ride to. Absolutely. And there's a chapter in the in the book.It's called Failure is Okay, and being a victim is not, And the purpose of thechapter is that we need to be accountable to our own mistakes. Andit's not people that mess up that we don't like. People mess up all the time.Um, in fact, we actually root for people that are like the underdog,right? If people make a mistake and then they get back on their feet. Weactually admire those people more than people who were just successful allalong. It's the people that, like are stubborn or double down on theirmistakes that we don't really like, whether it's in politics, whether it'sin just like your workplace. If somebody screws up and they won't admitit and move on, those are the people that really pissed us off. They're notaccountable to their own failure, and so I try to be a living example of thatin the book and be like, Look, I've made mistakes like I've screwed up. I'mnot perfect, but here I just said it. Right. So, like, here's how we move on.And I think that it Z, you know, hopefully gives people the confidencethat by opening up a little bit that they might actually be better off.Where is their intuition would make them believe that they're better off bybeing flawless. So, yeah, I have enjoyed this conversation so much, Ihope that everyone listening I know myself. I'm gonna be checking out thebook when it's live later this month. I hope that our our community as it waswell, just so our listeners remember one more time. The book is authentic,selling how to use the principles of sales and everyday life. Author is myguest, Jeff Kerr chick, and he shares his stories. Um advice. Antic dotes.Thio. Yes. Be better at your job but selling. But also take the things thatwe all know and maybe feel organic to us every day in our sales roles,marketing roles and figure out how to apply those thio life and for any ofyou that are already doing this you know the magic of it. So, Jeff, thankyou for being a guest. It's been really fun to sit down today. Thank you forhaving me. I really enjoyed the conversation. Absolutely. I lookforward, Thio, hearing your chat with Sam once the book comes out as well.This is the revenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Like Gordon, I'm yourhost. I will be seeing you next time. And until then, go check out Amazon. Goget Jeff's book it za available. Alright, crew by All right. That's awrap with another great revenue Collective podcast episode Jeff Kartik,Thank you for being a guest. The revenue collective podcast is poweredby outreach. The sales engagement platform for the modern sale. Zorg Wantto see what the number one sales engagement platform can do for yourbusiness? Head on over to www dot outreach dot io to learn more. I'mCasey. Let Gordon your host and we'll see you next time.

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