The Pavilion Podcast
The Pavilion Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Ep: 26 Leads Are Overrated with Alon Waks

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Leads Are Overrated with Alon Waks

Hello and welcome to the revenuecollective podcast. My name is Casey. Like Gordon and I'm your host. Today Ihave the chance to sit down with alone Wax four times CMO and marketing leadercurrent Fractional CMO and adviser for Growth Face Companies. You guys aregonna love this conversation. We get right into the nitty gritty of why hesays leads air overrated and screw a B. M. He's talking about account basedeverything. We talk tangible things, but we also talk philosophy aroundsales and marketing. He brings a tremendous amount of experience,passion, and as we jump in you'll see controversy. So with that, let's getstarted. And before I dio, I wanna give a shout out to today's sponsor. Thisepisode is brought to you by Quota Path Commission tracking software built bysalespeople for sales people. If you wake up in a cold sweat, dreading thecommission process, quota path is for you. Quote. A path provides commissiontrack ings transparency for everyone involved while motivating reps to sellmore. Plus, it's so easy toe on board. It'll be up and running before yournext commission cycle. Ditch spreadsheets and formulas simplifycommission calculation at quote a path dot com Hello and welcome to therevenue collective podcast. My name is Casey. Let Gordon and I'm your host. Weare podcast focus on revenue sales and marketing leaders, telling the storiesof what it's like to be in the roles and telling the the human aspect of ofwhat it means to be to be a sales, marketing and revenue leader. So todayI am very excited to have one of our members joining us alone. Wax alone isa fractional CMO and adviser today at Growth Face Companies in the Martek andsee X spaces. Prior to this, he was a marketing leader at customer visiblelive person eight by eight. You get the idea We're gonna be talking today abouta topic that alone has promised me to be provocative, and it is that Leedsare overrated. So if you're in sales and marketing, sit down, buckle upbecause we are about to get riel alone. Welcome. All right. With thatintroduction, I better be entertaining. I guess you better be. Don't disappoint.Now off course that I will I will oblige and I'll talk about anything youwant me to be a long as I'm a least a little bit knowledgeable about it.Perfect. So you and I correct me? If I'm wrong, you actually lead inmoderate the marketing channel within revenue Collective. So anybody that'smoderating a channel, I assume that your your pseudo guru status. So talkto me about your journey into marketing and how you became a fractional CMO.Sure. Pseudo pseudo sme Sougou is exactly how I define myself. The peopleI'm gonna go out with, like, what are you, like I'm a student person. Okay,so I started actually in consulting really old school consulting And whatit taught me talking about 25 years ago I'm pretty ancient is that I like totouch a lot of things that altogether or messy, but can have a systematicapproach to understanding something bigger than each one of them. And thatled me. Then to go into product management was kind of like being a CEOof a small company inside the company. I I spent many years a bigger companieslike a via And when I did product management and I did general management,I always like something which is about I don't understand the market wellenough. I don't understand the customers well enough. I've always beena B two B and B to B to C person. I taking the I of the consumer, theattendee, the employee, whoever is the target user off what you're selling andmarketing intrigued me because it's like I went to a business school thattaught me a lot about it. But mainly about two b two c aspect very CPGconsumer goods and all that. It's like, Yeah, well, like sexy, brand sexy colorcommercial. It must be more deficit. So I was attracted a lot to the voice ofthe market, the voice of the product, and how do you bridge the gap betweenthe two? And that was what I like to think about B two b marketing as. Andthat's why I started going towards more the marketing roles I started and thelength of Korean product marketing all the way to being leader of bigcompanies and big teams. And many CMOs come from one of three are the productmarketing brand, or demand, and I come from the product marketing go to marketstrategy approach, and that is taking me through this career until becoming aleader of marketing, encompassing all of those wells. So I like it all. Yeah,that's I think that's such an interesting path and probablyrepresentative of a larger macro trend of this consumer experience coming intothe B two b space. I know informer lives, you know, I was working in the Btwo b side of things, and I found, and...

I'm sure this is where we're going togo today. But I found that even in a B two B environment, you're still sellingto people. And as all of us are becoming so much more savvy and justour own personal lives about how we consume and the expectations we havearound an experience that doesn't just go away because we put on our work catsthat still is there. So I I love that you observe that and then intentionally,it sounds like, really began toe to build a career headed towards that way.Definitely. The way I look at it is you can't just be a bit to see commercialbased discount. You know, the three PS four season, all the stuff that Ilearned 25 years ago whatever. And you can't just be a B two b, the howtechnology and all that I It's actually funny. I came off a call with one of myclients. Serena told the CEO that I believe that the new modern marketingis focused on programmatic storytelling. You gotta be able to tell a story, butyou gotta be able to actually measure and understand that. And if you marrythose two together and then it's actually really beneficial for B two B.So I want to talk about what you look at when you think of a marketing teamthat does programmatic storytelling, because that, to me, is there arethey're interrelated, but they usually are different skill sets, perhaps theperson or the individuals with the team that is great at building thatnarrative. Developing a rich brand. They may not be your hardcore datafolks on the back. So when you're looking at that, what is a great teamcomprised off? Yeah, so I get this question a lot. It really depends alsoon stage, but let's assume this stage is more than one market, because how doI e? I love starting off with red rocks or operations because I believe that inorder to understand if you're doing well or having leading indicators toewhat what you think should be done because you come with a lot ofexperience in baseline, you need to be able to measure and understand what'sworking. And the data tells you a lot of stories, even in, you know, inperfect data. But some data so red robes with the demand kind of like tilt,very important second pieces, content and product marketing. Whatever you cando it, you can ditto two of them together, separate, or if it's veryearly on, you could have a hybrid person. You gotta be able to drivecontent that is effective to your target persona in the I C P. Otherwise,you could be doing a lot of just, you know, campaigns and things around howgreat your product is. But nobody gives us because it's were on the podcast.Have to be politically correct because at the end of the day, if you'retelling a story about how great your product is, and you're not talkingabout the persona of the person, the consumer, the decision maker, the user,the buyer the influence of persona the CEO. People want to hear about whatthey care about, not about what you do, so content and storytelling is anextreme part. Now the thing is, when you look at those separate things likea campaign manager demand person, a rare box person that can tell a storyfrom data and the third person that is more of a content person, those arelike the big bones. I would assume that you can do the content Person shouldtalk about the y and a little bit of the what what we do to solve theproblem. The person who is in charge of campaigns and demand should be able totake that together, understand how to go and get towards an audience. Withthat story and off course, your data person and operations person should beable to tell you Well, are you getting closer to these people? Are theyshowing your signals and so forth? But the main person to look at it all hasto be You is the marketing leader because that's your job. Your job is tomake sure that you are addressing the target audience with ineffective yetsuccessful man. So when you're looking at just to restate this and make surewe're synthesizing it for the audience, you start with REV. Ops to givestructure right. We need some sort of structure in which that we're going tobegin Thio measure and see what's working. Then bring in your yourcontent or storyteller within that, and then you're bringing in that data piece.So we know what is. The structure that we're designing against. Here is theactual content that will go into that structure. And then the optimization ofthat is what then follows on shortly thereafter, with the marketing leaderhaving oversight into what we're doing. Is it working 100%? And the river ofperson also can run the campaigns for you animal marketing and others. Andeventually you need a person or somebody or without function to helpyou just scale the campaigns. But without measurement, without content,what are you actually looking at? I don't know, right? So you like I saidin the intro I when you and I were going back and forth over email, I saidone of the questions we always like to ask going into this is like as Ahleader. Tell us something provocative that maybe you believe that not everyother salesperson believes. And we've had really great answers. Come, come on.The podcast And you came back with two. You said, first of all, leads airoverrated. Which most salespeople that probably caused them like a you know,like a way a moment of oh, shit. And then the second is it's not accountbased marketing, its account based...

...everything. And so I want to talk aboutthese two. And how you What is your philosophy and how you got there? Beingprovocative is not just fun. It actually it's about what you believe.So the whole obsession about leads, and especially this ancient metric calledem Que el is unless you are very inbound s and B high velocity fiveminute s L A too quickly answered by the phone, which not a lot of companiesare anymore. Especially if you're talking with Margaret Enterprise En queel is actually could hurt you because the old methodology is marketing. Driveyou more leads. They marketing says Okay. They've done two clicks and oneemail open that is qualified. We like it not our problem anymore. SDR, gohunt him down. Or South Person. You got attendees? Why not working them? Itscause is still the mentality of over the fence. And on the other side of itis this account based marketing which is supposed to counter this immatureover the fence thing has the M in it. It's a country's marketing, but youcan't be account based marketing that the account has to be owned by cells.People eventually that they could go deep across the wide into accounts. Sothat's why the whole terminology off marketing is gonna do a B m for me. I'mexpecting 100 demos every day because that's how the world works, right? Notit's about. You need to be accomplished. Everything. Which means you yourself,leader, your customers success your ops, Your revolves on Lee to understand.Here is the 1 to 112 few methodologies off how you slice your ICP. We're gonnawork together on orchestration marketing does air cover and themetrics off relevance are not in cures that are thrown over the fence. Becausethat's not enough. Not enough depth is about how is the account respondingleading indicators a cover intent engagement level oven account. Is thatsurging up? Do we see multiple personas engaging? Should we now say it? Is theyalready? If so, what should, as they are do? Marketing's job is a lot moreto guide sales and str videos also in going towards the right account withthe right manner. And it doesn't matter who created this attribution, which iscompletely operated term anyway. But we can talk about that another day. It'sabout how do you work together towards an account and not just say, Oh, itreached 50 school. Throw it over. Let's go get the next one. It's not anassembly line anymore, so your take is that Leeds are a potentially a falseindicator of success. You can say we have all of these in cules, andmarketing can say, you know, wash their hands of it. Hey, we did our job. Butin an organization and especially as the sales process has become morecomplex, more nuanced, mawr customized, it's not about leads anymore. It'sabout what is your holistic strategy. And so if I'm sitting in either thesales or marketing function, my organization right now is very muchleads driven. And I'm listening to this podcast. What are some of theconversations I need to start having inside my team or inside my company toshift this mindset? First of all, look at the data. How is an incurable reallyrepresentative over buying Decision Group buying entity? No. Because ifyou're not totally inbound demo request one persona is the decision group. Thenyou probably need to engage more than this lead or which becomes a contentyou wanna be able to engage? Probably the user, the buyer, maybe the economicbuyer, maybe an influence of persona from the I T department. All of thosecould be each one of them. Incurable. So what you're gonna have you need toreach four MQ LZ in order to define and account to be ready. No, you need toreach a certain position off account engagement that includes significantbuying group people. The people not leads people, and then that defines anaccount that's really for who could be as they are. Go talk to them about whythey came to an event and give them another consultative peace. Or MrSalesperson, they can't you own in England has now shown some activity inthe US Perhaps it would be smart for you to try and bridge the gap ingetting informing production. He has three direct mail and speakopportunities we can give you. That's what I mean by this. Focusing on isthis piece that is the goal. It's not. Marketing is gold. Marketing Goal isrevenue and Pipeline, not NPR's. Do you find that organizations that you workwith So you're fractional CMO Do you find that organizations that you workwith are able Thio? Adapt this to this this way of operating. It takes a longtime and it's hard. First of all, it's hard for everybody. I'm not just gonnasay Oh, hey guys, listen to along the forecast The CEO and founder Asimoheard these guys, everybody drop. The...

...leads were going to account like That'sBS. It's like, Look at your flow, your lead flow, your customer journey wherethey're coming from. What do they do? When do you define something? Salesready? Who cares What you call it ready for sales is what you care about. Idon't care. What metric is that? Marketing qualified? I don't reallycare. M qsr used doesn't matter once that they look at the data, look at theprocess and then come and say, Okay, look at that on the lead. Still have aplace because leads away. We're marketing automation systems do. But Ibelieve that leads are owned by marketing 100%. No, sir. And this isgonna be provocative. Ready? Everybody already know such a person should toucha lead ever again in their life. That is my 100% belief, because it distortsthe view of an account because an account represents a buying entity. Andthat's all you can I, as a former sales leader, love theidea that salespeople are never touching leads again because I thinkthat it is. It could be such a time suck of the wrong activities to thewrong customer. But sometimes is that that activity versus productivity,right? It's It's just things I could be doing. And it can often be a trap. Andso I'm just thinking through my own experiences of how not only how open Iwould have been, but also how open my organization would have been video toadapting this. And I think it would have been things have been reallychallenging. Yeah. I mean, there's reasons why Because we used to this. Sohere's one step towards it. Define a Rev ops committee or function whateveryou wanna call it that has sales ops and marketing ops and represents theinside sales and the outside the fields as the eighties. And tell them, firstof all, everybody relax. Have a coffee. It's gonna be OK. Sit down, chill andwe're gonna take you through that. You're not losing anything. How yourather your focusing if your folks are going through salesforce in looking forrandomly that they think are smell good But we have all agreed that they areoutside of our focus I c p or Target audience whatever terminal joining us,then you should represent them or even give them no view like in South View.There are teams, maybe an SD or maybe as their manager that can look at itwith your with your obstinate say these actually good. We should move them back,optimize looking age. I'll always look at the data to give you more directionsand change the process. Change the scoring change the routing, But wastinga is are so expensive and so important because they're the only ones who cansell. So if you're giving them things to work on, which are gonna distracthim for the things that are warmer, that's not a good idea. But you've gotto start with. We all take this pledge that a warm account is better than acold account, and you'd be surprised how many timeswe all agree to that. But then I go see them work on called the Cards becausemy dear leader told me that I need to make 100 70 is a day, and that's mymetric. No, it's not. It's pipeline. That's your number one metric. Sothat's what I disagree with a lot of times, all right, so you come in andtalk to me about what your role is as a fractional CMO because I always thinkthat's fascinating to have a fractional executive role. You know, we're seeingthat become more common as I think they're more proof of success. But I Ipersonally just have a lot of curiosity because I know there's so much as a Csuite. You're so invested in the success and it feels like that could beall consuming. But to be fractional means that you don't That's not theonly thing that you're working on. So I'm just curious of how how you gotinto fractional roles and what are some of maybe the the differences or nuancesthat that people may not realize? Sure. So I got into this by not beingstrategic luck when I decided that it's time for me. Thio move on from my lastcompany and we came to a great agreement, and I still a big fan. Andwith friends I had the day I left already started this two days a weekfractional CMO of a smaller company. Now it's a personal thing for me. I'velearned that small startup pre growth phase. I have less intention to be thefull time CMO, and they probably can't afford me. And they have a lot ofexecution foundational work, just like we discussed now, like I have nointention of going to a company and spending 40 50% of my time on definingthe foundation, the leap account routing account by scoring what is ourtarget audience and, like I could do that much better, giving a day, twodays a day and a half, maybe half a day, some time to give the framework tostructure the experience, the baseline things that I've known for 20 years now,as I grew in mature share companies that I understand that the space,that's what affection of CIA Moken dio. Now why is it beneficial? The smallercompanies that are relatively pre growth or just entering the growthphase can't afford somebody like myself...

...or somebody experience. So it's a winfor them. They could get really deep strategy and frameworks and guidance.They could get an objective person who is not measured on. Oh my God, I didn'tmean the number of incurable Oh, God, market is dying and tell them thatthat's Bs and B a riel adviser to the CEO. I come in from the board. I comein from the CEO, usually not from the marketing team. I'm brought in bysomebody who says, Come help them come help us. And why is it cool? Becausefor me, it serves a purpose that I don't wanna be a seam of smallcompanies, and also it enables me to date before I marry. Why not if I everdecide to take on a bigger role, right? Right on dso anything that you have Youhad any experiences? Where? Where it's not turned out. Well, I'm just curiousas people are listening to this and maybe exploring this like, what aresome things that they look out for, as they may be assessing this is a path.Yeah, for sure. Again, I'm very candid about this. I'm fractional or advisor is what I callthis is not really consulting. You not have a turnkey project to build us isdefinition of success is varied. Sometimes definition of success is I'mgonna give you three months and I'm gonna I'm gonna take you through thisjourney and definition of success is that we're gonna have a definition ofwhat your target audience and I see P is how you're gonna approach it, willbuild a plan, and then you go and execute. And if you need me in thefuture, will be happy to help you on some path. That's one of the rich thatsome of them is. We want to continue. We want to continue or we'll thinkabout continue. And one of them that my first one, actually because of covert,had to downsize. So was a successful. Yeah, could afford me. And could I stay?Oh, no. But I usually become aboard advisor or advisory board. Remember, tothe CEO, which is I can still be involved. And I get a little bit of,you know, shares and stuff. So that's success. Um, I've had one or two,actually. One where we did, We decided not to continue because we didn't seeit was a really good fit from both sides Most of the time. When thathappens, it happens because the team in place cannot take the strategy and plantowards execution. Doesn't have the bones to do that, and that's it's fine.But the executive team of the company should decide this. What we agree withyes, alone is giving us about plan. We love it now. We don't have anything todo with it. We need to go and make decisions, or we decided not to makethe right decisions that the plan has told us. And we're gonna take adifferent path, which is okay. And then we shake hands and we end his friendsand usually they come back to me in a few months to help them again. Oh, theygo look for VP marketing junior person, which is what sometimes they need. AndI help what they need in order to take in the next level. That is alsodefinition of success. Okay, so we've covered why Leeds Air? Overrated. We'vecovered. Okay, of course about leads. We could talk plenty to talk. We'vetalked about organizations and their readiness to actually adapt thismindset, how you've been able to affect change and also sometimes not affectchange in your fractional roles and what that looks like. I want to digback into your point around, leads being overrated and the concept ofaccount based everything account based marketing. I mean, where you can't hearit. Enough people are, you know, year after year, especially recently.Talking about that is the headline for how business is going. I want to dig inthere a bit more. So let me tell you a bit about my mantra, if that's okay, sothat would be great. I say to these teams, usually I'm the same. Of course,80% of our time and effort should be focused on this motion, this theme,whatever you record it, we're gonna go and say, Here's the one too few Andhere's the 1 to 1 on and we'll focus on that 80% of the time, which is a big,big What does that mean? It means that we have decided that this is the targetaccount list or target account lamb stylist like these are the profile ofthe companies we in virtual. We go and we partner whatever we need in order toreach this persona and vertical and companies multiple personas throughthese tactics part of its sails. Part of that is S. Diaz. Part of it ismarketing. Part of it is partnerships. Sometimes the combination soundsthere's only one one too few is probably hundreds to limited amount ofthousands of companies that are defined as a space, probably a vertical or adisplacement program. Off those 121 is like here are the top 20 per rap.There's, like 200. Maybe there's 500. Maybe there's 100 at the time that fortwo quarters we're gonna really do 1 to 1. They were speaking up podcast. We'llsend them direct. Were building their own personal video. They'll be part ofthis exclusive community and so forth. In order to do that, you cannot havethe accounts owned by the top 20 each rep not being worked on research, butrather have a marketing say we warm...

...them up and only then the report gave ashit. No, you have to work together and agree that this would yield foods. Andthe assumption again is to be warm is better than called. Why the hell wouldyou go work on the call? The count. Now, if these people are similar, lookalikescome inbound. That's where the 20% kicks in and it will feed. But it'susually because you've done some good content, community awareness campaigns,partnership that is attracting this kind of companies. You anyway, want tocare about the challenge. I see a lot of times ishe still going to get these little sardines. I call it sardines, tunas andwhales. We can go into alone methodology. The Saudis can still comeswimming to you, inbound, and you wanna grab all these sardines are so good orwow. That's because if I eat 100 sardines, I'll be full versus two Tunas.But that's not what your company needs for sex unit economics. It's very hardto say no to these or just give them only to the small, like New A s andcommercial to work on. And that's a lot of times where it's challenging. Ithink go more to that. So I want to dig in more to the challenges because Ithink that a lot of times I'll speak on my own experience. I hear us talkinghere and it sounds well, yeah, of course, that's what we would dio. Butthen I go back to my organization. I'm sitting in a weekly planning meeting orquarterly planning meeting who should be leading the We'll call it the A Bstrategy. Who should be leading this conversation? Yes, I know that salesand marketing, or probably both in there but who ultimately has the calltwo ways could go the most experienced, mature grown up that has done it before.It gets to be the leader off this to define the strategy, but you have tohave the Sierra and CMO really align VP cells with market whatever you call itand be behind us not us a line, but the team. If a manager off sales or managerof SDRs then goes and keeps them doing the other spray and pray. Or we'regonna work on these accounts because we don't have the time to get marketingtwo weeks to warm them up and and and invite them, then it's going to fail.Top down the strategy. Who needs toe work on orchestrating this and lookingat the daily, weekly and so forth? I have this thing that I like onWednesday but all the week to have what is called an interlock of ST committingthat marketing sales, a M or customer success come in. We all look at theagreed upon religious dashboard of how we're progressing and look at it andlook at take aways. My ideal is a REV. Ops person. Well, look at this. Thisperson could be sales, marketing or, ideally, none of reporting to. Andthird party. I like that a lot, and they will be the single source of truthabout how our go to market strategy leading indicators are working towardsour goals. That is nirvana for me. So week to week. What is eso we observed.We goto our Wednesday meeting. I like the idea of midweek to allow people toget in, hit Cem Cem stride and then actually see progress. So we get intothat meeting, we observe that something is awry. How quickly do we adapt weekover week versus allowing it Time thio even out. And I think that's again. I'mspeaking from very much my own experiences of knowing how quickly dowe move versus and get enough data to make a call, don't make rash decisionsand think they should take time. For example, we have event in 45 weeks andyou just launched the day go and you have only one email Go out Don't say Ohshit. This event is a flood. There is because you haven't put enough woodbehind the arrow. That makes no sense. Um, on the contrary, if you decided todo a direct mailer and 100 direct mail has dropped and people are notresponding over the last 2 to 3 days to an orchestrated BDR marketing and maybean additional thing, don't send another 400 the next week, just like if youhave a new tool that you're piloting pilot before you buy. Don't just say weneed intent. You need a B M does what he does with that, and then we'll starta B M strategy. No. Hell, no. Start with piloting on your own, learn andthen scale. So that's what I would say. Do you establish those metrics ahead oftime of what would be significant enough? Or is some of it just, I don'tknow, gut and conversation Real time with the group. You have to havebaseline experience from your past, which is like that to tell you what youexpect. Like conversion rates like conversion rate time. I How long is acycle between engagement to meeting how many meetings should be like so forth,But you need to build a baseline that takes probably a quarter of time.Depends on the sale cycle. One length of the sale cycle should suffice foryou to get enough information and data to validate. But if you're not, leadingindicators tell you that you're not getting there. Don't wait a quarter. Dosome, you know, optimization. I hope...

...you didn't spend $50,000 on ah whitepaper and a whole where we brand and stuff before. You really did someproper testing with your target audience, whether it's friendly peopleor just a sample group. Uh, good luck. So we talk about setting up thebaseline. You mentioned a quarter. This sounds like something that getsimplemented in a company that that at least has its legs under it. When we'retalking about a very early stage company or a new company, do you thinkthat account based is appropriate for them? Or does it take time to develop abaseline before you invest? The compass is relevant. It's amethodology or approach to marketing. You can be, uh, seed company with lessthan $100,000 in sales. Or you can be a late stage company public company,which, where I grew up in many of these 100 million. Plus it doesn't matter.What you shouldn't do is before you've piloted and seen success that isshowing repeatable parents over time to some target audience. Don't investingtools or don't investing tons of committed marketing tactics that youshould scale as you see success. But that goes to anything I mean, are yougonna go invest $20 a month on intent Review sites before you startunderstanding it with $3000 for that. No, it doesn't make sense. Are yougonna buy a tool before you think that you understand how to implement anaverage? It there is a massive pitfall. All of these CMOs coming in with a needthe stool because it's magic, and you don't have a way to leverage it. Sixmonths since the come and sit with the CFO and said, Like What about the$30,000 to what have we done? What does it return to us? Be careful. You coulddo a lot with our tools. Yeah, and I push a lot. You were an incrediblysophisticated marketer. And so I'm pushing for us to get down into thenitty gritty here because not all of our audiences, right? A lot of ouraudience are the people that are building their career. This may be thefirst time that they're doing this. They may not have this seasonedexperience. And so how do we how do we help them have these conversations? AndI love what you said there around. Don't over invest or over index andtools first of all, most tools. They're gonna let you pilot it before you buyit, that they want you to have the right fit and to recognize based on whoyour customer is. What your business needs are what your sales like. Itlooks like what tools air actually needed. I think that, you know, wecould we could probably have, I don't know, 12 different podcast goingsimultaneously about all the tools that you could possibly use. But it'sfiguring out and doing, you know, having parts of your organizationresponsible for vetting those to see. Are they appropriate for our business?Yeah, definitely. Just start to start with, start with the people in yourcustomer base, but over the last, take the cell cycle, double it. Go back tothat time. And from then on who has become a new customer who of thoserepresents a persona that is that has shown value the value metric. Ifthey've shown value, they have gained X. You saw that there actually arebenefiting of expanding talk to them, understand what or look at them from asous perspective of software. What use cases? Well, it for them. Then startbuilding account based programs around that. Let's say these same personas areunder the seas kind of audiences. Let's say it's the retail vertical between1000 to 5000 employees, North America that have no stores and are not amarketplace. Okay, that's a definition we're gonna go for the director ofmarketing that is a focus on paid search, great, or the or the VP ofperformance, marketing or whatever it's easy to define. And we're gonna try andget 50 of them to have an engagement with us to these three elements of acampaign. And we'll see success because nobody showed up. However, now why,okay or nobody? Everybody liked this book because it really resonated orpeople are coming to this block post because it's completely got nothing todo with us. But they're loving the topic. Okay, how can we use that? Justask the questions to yourself and then try to come up with ways to look at. No,no market has the right answers for everything you got to test. I thinkthat's part of the scary. That that's the scary part, though, is that a lotof times, you know, one of the things that has been a recurring theme on this.This podcast is how marketing is such a catalyst for growth inside, especiallyearlier midsize earlier growth stage companies. But it often is the mostoversimplified by other parts of the organization. Ah, lot of times somebodysays, Oh, that's marketing. It's just a campaign that's really easy And sobeing able, I think is a marketer to say, Hey, I don't have the answers Buthere's the structure by which we will get to them. I think that takesexperience and and confidence in your...

...own capabilities to be able to say thatinside a company, it's definitely the right approach. The right approachshould not be like, Okay, we know this is gonna work. We're gonna spend 50% ofour budget on this. We're gonna commit six months. Don't do that. Especiallynow, in these crazy, unfortunate times, agility is the key. No, CMO is lookingmore than six months ahead, so go for a target audience. Do a little bit ofcampaigns be able to scale them, know how you're going to scale them. Lookfor leading indicators week over week and understand it's hard. It's hard tobe a market and b two b, you don't know what's always gonna work. It is. It is,especially with these longer sales cycles. I'm curious on something aboutdefining your total addressable market. So we have our, you know, maybe noteven total addressable. Maybe it's really are are focused customer listare you know, the target list. You said it could be pretty easy, right? We wantto go after companies of this size in his geography, these kinds of titles Ihave found at times that the organization can be fearful to putlines in the sand of who you're gonna talk to because that means I may nottalk to other people. And there's this fear of if I'm only talking to these 50what about these other 100? Even if the 100 are not correct, how do you helporganizations find confidence in defining that customer and not beingscared of what they're quote unquote leaving behind? Yeah, attacks upon itearlier. If you understand that these small sardines are not going to beactually beneficial, well, they're gonna and then you can spend the sameamount of cells, people's time and effort on acquiring a customer. Hightouch, not low touch. No touch with the second we'll talk about that. Hightouch means a meeting with an SDR quantification meeting demo meetingwithin a Yea, we dance little dense. Now let's go to technical validation.We're bringing to one more person to the show, and then we're gonna go tobusiness validation. We show our Y or value value positioning. It's like it'sstill gonna take 30 to 90 or 1 20 or 1 80 days. Okay, would you really takethis whole journey with a $10,000 a C V company? If you could probably do thesame thing with just 10% more effort for 30,000, where would you spend yourtime? Yes, if these sardines come to you in the buying two days, youshouldn't have AH, product growth or shut based assisted sales approach thatan SD architect them all day long and inbound mechanism Separate those out.Leave them alone. Don't focus on cells. People trying to quote and dance withthese people that seem hot and smell them separated, let themselves peoplework on the things that are in the swim line. It is an extremely dangerous gameto try and work on the inbound sardine demo flow. If you know that you'regoing to spend as much time with them and they're gonna do leakage in yourretention rate, you're just not. You have to put a filter slowed. So whenwe're talking about this, are you really thinking about companies thatare text SAS based companies or you thinking more broadly that it could beany B two B company? And I put any within Asterix? But in your mind arethese things that, for instance, if I'm in professional services or other otherrealms, is this content still relevant to me? I think the approach off thisunderstanding, how to filter out the non I seep or how to accelerate I see Ptwo sales and give them a high touch vs no touch or low touch with his chap. Itis very funny, buddy. So, for example, if you are a professional services andyou're selling consulting or let's say business services related, whether it'slegal, whether it whether it's I t, whether it's whatever it is, it doesn'tmatter if people coming to you or small association or dot gov or M. P O s. Andthey say, Oh, yeah, I'm looking for, like a project, but your history hasshown that these usually the budget is in $5000 where you expect a minimum of20. Why you gonna dance a dance? Even though it's a hot lead, it is 80%likely they are not a good fit for your services, and you might have to gothrough this discounting and the center. Stop wasting your time on those Go forthe people that are a better fit. But if you haven't validated what it'scalled, the must have off this bigger fit. Don't send your a ease on a wildgoose chase. If you don't know that there's a solution, market fit outthere because then it's sad. Thanet sad. That's a That's a great way of sayingthat. Then it's sad. So you talked about briefly while we were goingthrough this, the low touched and no touch. And you said you wanted toexpand on that. Talk to me a bit about that, Yeah, So in an inbound fashionand also out band, you're gonna get awareness and people coming andstarting to raise their hands this high that high. It doesn't matter whenthey're coming to you. I don't want to try self serve. Want to convert on someMaybe a demo videos or whatever. You...

...could be there for them proactively andreactively. Being there for them doesn't mean you're going to give it toYuri's. If they are off the lower tiers, it's kosher. It's okay. You can givethem a chat. You can route them to a growth team. I like this terminology ofgrowth team or startup kit team. Whatever you want to come. These arenew ease or Junior is that probably graduated from your video assembly lifeand let them get one. Call it one call to close offer. Here's what we have for,You know, I'm sorry. We cannot discount 50% because you don't have a budget.Why don't you go toe somewhere else and come to us when you grow up? Be therefor these clients. Customer experience is always important here. But you'renot gonna given e a 45 minute demo called with hot lead inbound. Thatdoesn't fit the band I e. Commercial with market enterprise. Give them topeople that are other chatting or route them towards a Friday online demo. Onetoo many that they can all come and experience and ask questions with maybea new E that is in training or with a customer success person that gets crudecared for this. Why not? You don't want to lose these people if you have asolution that is valuable thio to your size metrics or decided yes to losethem but still be courteous about it and tell them we don't sell to yourkind because you're too small or you don't get value. Come back when yougrow up. And I'd love to recommend anybody else if you want. So you seecustomer experience as part of the journey, even when they're not yourcustomer. It's a hard one, and I've had to deal with this. It's a hard onebecause people come back and say, What do you mean, them too small for you?What do you mean you don't want to sell to me? Are you freaking e? I wanna payyou $3000 a year, but you know, like our minimum a service 10-K. It's likewhat can we do, and it's a challenge. It's a challenge for executive team todo that. But but But at the end of the day, I've had to cheat, even awareboard meeting when we talked so much about this, like, Why are you lettingyour people work on these mineral deals are calling the sardines? Yes, theSaudis, Well, because the directive from you guys and the CIA was to takeevery dollar we can do. I agree with that. Hell, no. That's why we createdthe growth team. It's It's it's It's a lot of questionsit so it's not easy. But once you align on the strategy, you got to standbehind it. Otherwise, you're messing up the whole plan. How long do you get on average? Standbehind your strategy. Now it's a global, more agile because you want to look atthings less than 90 days and see if you're right because there's a lot ofchanges in the world. But this strategy should lost for a least two quarters.The leading indicators telling you are measured, as I mentioned every week,but the strategy, for example, saying we see solution, market fit, Cardonawood products like solution because there's elements that you don't haveany product. If we defined solution, market fit. We know. I see p. We knowthat the persona is showing master verses Nice to have. Then you gotta putyour teams behind it for a least two quarters at least. Otherwise your whole companystrategies off your roadmap prioritization. I really like thatyou're giving something tangible here because I think that sometimes we hearwe need a strategy for the next 90 days and other times we here we need astrategy for this year and for 90 days, not a strategy. And not everyone willthink it's if it's an I like to say you need to xsl cycle to really exploresomething in depth. Unless the cell cycle is enterprise, are you not gonnawait 24 months for 12 months? That's what I was about to ask. What do you doif you have a year long sales cycle? You half of it to show leadingindicators. There's plenty of time market if you have the 90 to 1 80 days,if you do two quarters, that should be plenty of time to understand where youstand and to make changes along the way to the plan and how you address theplan. You're changing strategy every quarter. I think you're gonna havemorale issues, quote attainment, challenges. And actually, trust in yourexecutive team is gonna be a very hard if you don't know your strategy. Everyfour e couldn't agree more. And I'm curious how, as a marketing leader, howhave you balanced the tension when at times other members of the executiveteam and maybe you have had this experience or not? But other members ofthe executive team are changing strategy faster. Then you would feelcomfortable with because you know that you need to quarters or two extra salecycle. How do you balance that? Yeah. I mean, marketing builds for now a little,but you you made a quarter plus the head off sale in what you focus on. Youwant to focus two quarters ahead and say, sales quarters. And now the nextquarter, of course. And product focuses behind catching up. That's usually adrug. If the decision is okay, we need we are behind that. It happens. We arebehind our 40% on our goal to sales. We're gonna take every frequent sardinethat comes to us because that's gonna...

...make us get throughout our metric. ThenI'll challenge it or said that is not a company strategy. Why are we gonnaactually meet our goal to show our board. But then two quarters later,we're gonna have shitty retention and or three quarters because then you'regonna have the renewal cycle. You're gonna have bad retention and you'regonna see a drop off, and you're gonna have tons of wind lost that are gonnabe lost. And you're gonna show your whole metrics off. You're destroyingour plan instead of that, let's if we're gonna take a hit, okay, But oneweek celebrate partner from next quarter and bring it into this quarterinstead, which is still the right deals for us. I'm sorry, but a lot of peoplegoing to meet the metric I don't believe that's right for the company.That's why I don't go to m curious. I can every market that can influenceemployers quite easily, But that's not the magnetic I know. I think these airI've enjoyed where this conversation is going. And so if I am right, we'recoming into Q. For we are closing out what has been a very chaotic year forall of us were going into next year's planning. You know, wrapping upplanning for this year going into 2021. I am someone that sits within rev. Ops,marketing sales inside my organization, and the conversation you and I arehaving today is one I want to bring inside my company. Give me. Are youable to give me a couple of tangible pieces that that someone can start withto introduce the concept of account based or to shift the thinking aroundleads being king as they go into this upcoming year? You mean like contentpieces? Or, like approaches? Approaches? Yeah, approach start by understanding.Are we really seeing traction around leads, If not asking the questiontangibly to the group? Say, I want to assess what is our What is ourrelationship around leads and what is the proven success or lack thereof?Let's develop a point of view on the role leads solely play in our business.Is that it? Should we focus on leads or lead velocity right, Or should weswitch it to you're making sure that accounts are all the way across town tofollow. That's one second thing is all we do. We have trust and confidence inour data that enables us to look one quarter ahead that we are. We're oreven this quarter. Are we on the right track so that we don't stray away fromthe strategy at the last mile I e. The last two weeks or more or last month ofthe quarter, which is unfortunate. It happens a lot. That's another one. Thesecond thing off data integrity is the other and and making a collectivedecision on how confident are we and it's okay if it's not perfect. Butbeing up front about that, they were 80% confident or whatever that thatmetric is because otherwise you're going in finger pointing in small rooms,and that makes no sense. Frank, whose time of patients with the third is Dowe have the right process and framework in place to drive what the cells peopleneed in order to succeed from a coverage and conversion approach I eat,they have the right trust in the leads coming to them. They can't have beentranslated. The number of people and companies and outbound, we're engagingoutbound versus inbound. Are we all focused in a line that we're going tostrain this 60 70 80% of our time on these 100 accounts or ourselves? Our isthe our leaders. Are you still gonna go and spray and pray? This is 5000 peoplelist like, are we behind us? And then, if so, let's agree that we're gonnalook at the metrics and and that's what you're gonna activity will be focusedon. So agree on what is your target list or your target activities toengage in audience? But then don't go often. Do your own thing, right? So itzig it's initiating the conversation. It's agreeing and aligning on what yourdata integrity is. And then it's assessing your process and saying, Dowe have the infrastructure in place to actually be able thio, adapt orunderstand? And is there anything missing? And if so, can we work ongetting that in place? Yeah, and the last thing I was I would recommendpiloting if you can to drive confidence, Trust and and the rial scalable plantake one in one is the all that are maybe in a regional vertical match themwith a marketer. Try to do like an account based motion for that vertical.For that, let's say mid market retailers, um, in the in the West Coastand try to pilot a day and then you can scale it. And I really like using thepeople in the trenches to show their peers how it works for them coming intothe sea amount telling people this is how it works. Great. But then in thetrenches, that might still go back to the old ways right? This has been really fascinating to meto dig into this concept, and I put my not just my podcast host on today, butI put on my former sales leader and I was, you know, in a a mid size smallmidsize professional services firm. And...

...these were conversations we were havingso frequently, especially when it came to We want to update or pivot ourstrategy or evolve our strategy and what was enough data in order to make adecision. So I really like that you gave some tangible pieces to say it'stwo x your sales cycle or, if you're an enterprise do it. Half of your salescycle thes air some really tangible pieces as we're leaving our listenerstoday. Are there any other pieces of advice, insight, perspectives that thatyou'd like to share? I don't know if I think I'm shit enough. I'll give youone last thing if you think about if I come in and I could tell my CEOsomething that I've always been afraid of. Everybody doesn't want to tell them.It's give things time, especially in marketing, like branding and awarenesson other elements to actually show you impact. But ensure that you haveleading indicators that can show you progress towards it. Both of these areimportant. Don't just go. Instead, we don't have enough leads that za littlerural slave of marketing sensible marketing is more than needs. So thetop line is to your executive team to say we need times time to figure thisout. But the click down is I am tracking these leading indicators, andthese are the things that I am deeming could be indicators of success, and wewill collectively measure them and have conversations around staying the courseor changing. Yep, this has been this has been fun. Thankyou for joining me today. I I've learned a lot and I hope our listenershave Thio. Good stuff. Thank you. Alright, That is it for our revenueCollective podcast today. My name is Casey. Let Gordon I'm your host. I satdown with alone wax to talk about why Leeds Air overrated or why you need tobe doing account based everything and how a fractional CMO actually worksinside of companies. This was fun. We'll see you next time. Thank you for tuning in today to therevenue collective podcast. This episode was brought to you by quotapath. Quota path is the first radically transparent and and compensationsolution from sales reps to finance. Get started for free at quote a pathdot com And your next commission cycle could be totally automated. My name isCasey. Let Gordon I'm your host and this is the revenue collective podcast. Stop.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (175)